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    GT3 Food For Thought

    I just finished up a mostly wet (shocker) track day here in Portland, Oregon and being on the list for a 2008 GT3 wanted to share some observations. There were 4 GT3's out there (2 997's and 2 996's). 3 of the 4 had incidents (2 spun off and 1 spun and backed into the wall with damage). It definitely made me call into question whether the GT3 is right for me, or most mere mortals. I do about 10 or so track days a year in my bone stock C2S (with Michelin Cup tires) and have never been disappointed. In the sport mode, the PSM very very rarely kicks in, and when it does it's only because it's going to save my ass. After all, they taught me at the Road Atlanta PDE that PSM stands for "Please Save Me." I would guess that the driver who backed it into the wall wished he have PSM. I guess my point, or thought, is of course we always want more, bigger, better, but is that always a good thing? If I can continually put the screws to new and old GT3 in a C2S, I can't help but think that it's (for the most part) about the driver, not the car. There, I've said it.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    So are you going to cancel your order or are you hoping someone on the board will convince you not to draw such conclusions from a wet track day.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    As of right now, I'm bagging it. I've done plenty of wet track days, and plenty of dry track days and have always enjoyed the C2S and am not sure if what I will gain from the GT3 will outweigh the cons.

    That being said, my decisons are sometimes like the weather in Colorado: if you don't like it wait around and it'll probably change in 30 minutes or less.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Quote:
    Schumi Jr. said:
    If I can continually put the screws to new and old GT3 in a C2S, I can't help but think that it's (for the most part) about the driver, not the car. There, I've said it.



    Pretty much.

    The problem is a modern car with electronic gizmos can only teach you to do so many things while it takes care of the rest. So when you jump into a car that doesn't have these aids you instantly get rid of that fairly large margin for error that was built in. Because you don't have the inherent basics of car control down pat.

    The best way to really learn how to control a car on the track is to learn with a slow, underpowered, narrow tired, totally drivers aid free car (eg. buy a 944 and use that on the track for the 1st year or so). You have to do EVERYTHING. No ABS, traction control etc. Having to learn how to corner on the edge so that you keep momentum...

    Then when you jump into a GT3 you actually have MORE margin for error than you're used to! more tires, more aids and you're not a point and shoot, stop for the corners driver (that all too many beginner/intermediate high powered car drivers are).

    There's only one way to learn how to drive on the edge, at 10/10ths and that's to do it. Unfortunatly 10/10ths in a GT3 is pretty fast. Also 9/10ths feels just like 7/10ths. There is less of a lead up to the edge, and the edge is much narrower than that 944.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    I find we seem to justify whatever car we either have or want. It's really up to you and your financial, skill, comfort level etc. as to whether you want to take that next step.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Have you considered just keeping your GT3 order and swapping out the Cup tires for normal PS2 tires. That'd definitely help with those wet driving conditions.

    I just got back from the PSDS (Porsche Sport Driving School) and we drove both C2 and C2S. I don't recall the PSM ever kicking in during the more aggressive moments or even when the instructor took me on a hot lap ride around the track.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Last year at PDE, I engaged the PSM on a wet track. Others did as well. I think all of us were comforted to know it was there. I have a lot of respect for those who take a GT3 on a wet track. My wallet couldn't handle it.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Agreed, I saved about 6 secs using the PSM on the wet skidpad. Amazing how well it works.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    I guess the point of my original post was: A GT3 won't make you Walter Rohrl, and Walter Rohrl doesn't need a GT3.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Agreed...in fact, at the PSDS, I drove both the C2 and C2S on the track and found myself preferring the C2 with its standard brakes over the C2S with the PCCBs. Go figure.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Hi Schumi.Jr.
    I think the key in rain is that you need to go slower and smooth with all the inputs (throttle, steering and brakes).

    BTW, what tire pressure did you use on the track with MSC tires? Do you have 19"s? I will be using them first time this season.

    Thanks!

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Yup, believe me, being from the great Northwest, we are very well versed on driving in the wet on the track. I have to say I love the Cup tires on the track. I switch out from my PS2's on the street to the Cup tires for the track. I have played around with tire pressure, and have landed at 23/25 in good conditions. Overall, love them on the track now that I've found a tire pressure that I like and realize that they take a little longer to get temperature in them.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    You make a lot of sense. Go with the car that instills confidence in you and your driving. You will enjoy it much more. Most of us try to be something we are not and never will be when driving our cars. Those that say it is more rewarding driving a difficult car to drive fast ought to have their heads examined.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    I disagree nberry. There are few things I find more satisfying than taming an ill tempered car and making it go fast despite its liabilities.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Quote:
    Mithras said:
    I disagree nberry. There are few things I find more satisfying than taming an ill tempered car and making it go fast despite its liabilities.



    An ill tempered car should not be driven fast by anyone other than a professional. True enough there will be those with lesser talent that on occasion subdue a difficult driving car. In those instances, they should consider themselves lucky and their reward is lady luck prevented serious injuries or death.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Schumi.Jr,
    23 Front and 25 rear? what are your pressures when hot?
    Thanks.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    I'm with Nick. We have enough drivers out there who THINK they're Mario Andretti. Luck shouldn't be a part of driving.

    Dan

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Quote:
    colonel said:
    Schumi.Jr,
    23 Front and 25 rear? what are your pressures when hot?
    Thanks.


    When I read that, I was hoping those were cold temps too. That would be quite low for hot temps - though it's hard to get much temp in tires in the wet...

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    If you get the GT3 would you street it on wet roads with the cup tires, or put on winter/all-season tires?

    I've got a GT3 on order too and I also live in a wet climate, the windward side of O'ahu. My plan, after consulting with members of this list, is to try the cup tires in rain, drive slowly and smoothly, and see if they have enough grip. If it gets scary, I may swap out the cup tires for approved street tires.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Since I have a set of wheels that are dedicated to the track I'd probably use PS2's for the street and then Cup's for the track. I found that the PS2's just didn't hold up at all on the track. Interestingly, I had no problem with PZeros on my 996 on the track, but the 997S just melts the PS2's

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    This is a very relevant topic! I have categorically been against the GT3 because it does not offer PSM, although it is a fantastic car to drive! When I am at the Nürburgring during open driving most GT3 drivers drink coffee if the track is really wet. I also have the impression that most accidents with the GT3s happen during rain.

    In the last issue of EVO magazine it is pointed out that the new BMW Z4M Coupe racecar from BMW Motorsport has ESP. This is apparently the first purpose built race car to have this, but BMW argues that it will be run by privatists that don't drive like Walter Röhrl.

    Re: GT3 Food For Thought

    Don't forget chaps that the new 997 GT3 does have traction control & a new diff, both designed to help stop it biting you unexpectedly. Ok it isn't full PSM, but it is step forward & the car is FAR more stable on the bumpy stuff than a 996GT3!

    Having said this, even though I own a 997GT3, I agree that PSM would be a useful safety net, don't know why they don't fit it if you can switch it off, it will probably end up on the 998GT3!!!

    But don't be put off by extreeme wet weather handling this car is awesome & a much more enjoyable drivers car than a 997S or 997TT, both of which are already great cars. If you love driving & like Pork, you will fall in love with this car!

     
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