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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    JR-550:

    Totaly agree with your post. I really do not understand this "hype" about manual gearboxes. My Ferarri 550 was my last manual gear box car. For my,not an easy car to drive. Why spend 2 mlj plus on a car an opt out a PDK, just for weight?

     

    Because of the tactile delight it brings?


    --

    1988 Peugeot 205 Rallye / 2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS  / 2022 BMW M5 CS


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Porker:
    JR-550:

    Totaly agree with your post. I really do not understand this "hype" about manual gearboxes. My Ferarri 550 was my last manual gear box car. For my,not an easy car to drive. Why spend 2 mlj plus on a car an opt out a PDK, just for weight?

     

    Because of the tactile delight it brings?

    Exactly - much more fun to drive.  And the fan isn’t just to go faster, it adds stability and safety when driving below the limit too.  Sounds like the ride height and short overhangs are such that a nose lift is not really needed in most cases.  This car is incredibly desirable to me…


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    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    Porker:
    JR-550:

    Totaly agree with your post. I really do not understand this "hype" about manual gearboxes. My Ferarri 550 was my last manual gear box car. For my,not an easy car to drive. Why spend 2 mlj plus on a car an opt out a PDK, just for weight?

     

    Because of the tactile delight it brings?

    Exactly - much more fun to drive

    I love PDK but If I could afford this car I'd want it as a manual, no question, this car is not about lap times or acceleration times, it's about driving experience above all else, and a PDK has many advantages but it will never match a manual in that.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Carlos from Spain:
    Grant:
    Porker:
    JR-550:

    Totaly agree with your post. I really do not understand this "hype" about manual gearboxes. My Ferarri 550 was my last manual gear box car. For my,not an easy car to drive. Why spend 2 mlj plus on a car an opt out a PDK, just for weight?

     

    Because of the tactile delight it brings?

    Exactly - much more fun to drive

    I love PDK but If I could afford this car I'd want it as a manual, no question, this car is not about lap times or acceleration times, it's about driving experience above all else, and a PDK has many advantages but it will never match a manual in that.

    In one of the T.33 Spider videos, Gordon Murray mentioned that they were originally planning to offer T.50 customers a PDK (dual-clutch) gearbox option... but when they looked at the final order book, only 2 or 3 (?) customers had indicated a preference for the PDK option, so it was ultimately an easy decision to go with manual only as (for the company) it would have become the most expensive option ever! Smiley


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    People who buy these cars understand the ethos of what GMA is trying to achieve.  

    At the end of the day, the most memorable drives I had, had nothing to do with how fast I could change the gears, how brutally a car accelerated, nor the top speed.  

    It's always the harmony and balance that wins me over not the extreme figures.

    I mean just look back and think about it.  What was your favorite drive and memorable moments? And what car were you driving? I bet it was not a so-called hypercar.

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    With modern electronics on modern cars, it isn't hard to use a PDK box as a manual, put a 6/7 speed gear tree on the floor, and use electronic commands on each gear position to send that to the gearbox, while a clutch pedal is there to send clutch position to the gearbox operating the clutches. There are real clutches on PDK boxes so the operations will be the exactly the same as an old fashion manual. 

    Heck doing it like this can give the driver the option of either 1st gear up or 1st gear down, or whether reverse is on the 1st gear side or the other side. 

    That way, only one gearbox will need to be certified. 

     


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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    But I don't think that will have the same analog feel of a real clutch and mechanical stick, and the sensations is what it's all about, not just the mode of operation.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Yeah, that ship has sailed a long time ago.

    Modern engines cut fuel and stuff during shifting, modern manuals have synchos also. Very different than the original manuals where they need double declutching, and/or lifting of throttle during shiftings to prevent over rev and such.

    Even Porsche's own manual boxes, up to at least the 993 generations, the shift gates are vague and one is never sure which gear you slot the stick in, it's not until the 6-speed box in the 911R and the subsequent GT3s that has really precise shifts and literally foolproof. 

    We haven't even talk about the rev-match function, cable shifts vs rod shifts and etc. 

    So what is a 'true' 'analog' feel? It's just a made up thing people wanted to cling to. 

    No modern manual boxes will give the same satisfaction as mastering old school misbehaving ones. Getting a clean perfect shift in my 911R, or the GT3 was super easy, even my Aston V12 manual was a no brainer. But doing the same in my 3.6 was an actual accomplishment!

    I was a diehard manual guy in my teens, 20s and 30s. I had to have a manual and there is no compromises there. But with modern manual gearboxes getting so much better, shifting is just a chore, not a satisfying motion anymore. If I want another manual car, I am definitely looking for old classics. Those boxes take real skill.


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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    But I don't see why we have to go back in time to a 60's manual, your are overcomplicating things, a digital electronic clutch and stick is simply not the same as an analog mechanical clutch and stick, doesn't have to be a carburator engine with an archaic synchro'less box to notice that difference, this is not a matter up thing.

    Don't think the T.50's manual box will have any problem delivering the driver involvement and sensation of manual shifting, this is why 97% of the customers of this car chose the manual., 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    GM himself said his customers asked for Manual - in fact so few buyers asked for Auto that he didn't bother developing a version. I love his comments that he does not care about stats - he is aiming for driving nirvana and that is his niche. Let the others brag about times and max speed etc. Love it ! His ordering book confirms he has found his base. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    To be fair: I think the soft-close is included because of the central seating position. Not just a luxury item..


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    spudgun:

    To be fair: I think the soft-close is included because of the central seating position. Not just a luxury item..

    And I’m confident that very little additional weight was added.  Probably was able to offset the weight of the door motors with some other clever loss of weight elsewhere, because the doors didn’t need to withstand a hard manual close or something…


    --

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    And by the same token, the 3rd seat is just extra weight, over a 2 seater configuration. what's a couple kgs worth of front lift compared to an seat that weights at least the same, not to mention the weight of the extra passenger, an extra mistress will weight about 50kg more, an extra buddy would add 80 if not 90kg. 

    Like I said, the car is a full sets of contradictions. 

     


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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Whoopsy:

    And by the same token, the 3rd seat is just extra weight, over a 2 seater configuration. what's a couple kgs worth of front lift compared to an seat that weights at least the same, not to mention the weight of the extra passenger, an extra mistress will weight about 50kg more, an extra buddy would add 80 if not 90kg. 

    Like I said, the car is a full sets of contradictions. 

     

    And yet with 50% more seating, more luggage room, and more cylinders, it still weighs about 1,000 pounds less than most “lightweight “ Porsche models Smiley


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    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Yes, and with an all world engine to boot!

    Benefit of him being the boss outright and a small volume manufacturer so not much regulations to follow. 

    Major kudos to Murray for getting the whole thing up and running. When he 'announced' a few years back, most didn't gave him half a chance to succeed. 


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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    It’s reported that 500 CGT’s are subject to a recall. Apparently suspension parts are failing. 


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    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Whoopsy:

    With modern electronics on modern cars, it isn't hard to use a PDK box as a manual, put a 6/7 speed gear tree on the floor, and use electronic commands on each gear position to send that to the gearbox, while a clutch pedal is there to send clutch position to the gearbox operating the clutches. There are real clutches on PDK boxes so the operations will be the exactly the same as an old fashion manual. 

    Heck doing it like this can give the driver the option of either 1st gear up or 1st gear down, or whether reverse is on the 1st gear side or the other side. 

    That way, only one gearbox will need to be certified. 

     

     

    Just realized Koenigsegg had already done such a gearbox last year for the CC850 and it's lighter than a normal manual. 

    So Gordon could have licensed that or buy that from them. 


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    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Gordon Murray Automotive T.50 in-car at Goodwood...E0F26BDD-E91B-4EF4-964B-7C4204B9E420.gif

    Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yTG1fx5ZXc

    Smiley


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Gordon Murray Automotive T.50 in-car (more footage) at Goodwood...E0F26BDD-E91B-4EF4-964B-7C4204B9E420.gif

    Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpMOT4CXIc

    Smiley


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    First Road Test of the new T.50 in the latest TG Magazine.

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top-gear-magazine/pick-new-issue-top-gear-mag-worlds-only-gordon-murray-automotive-t50

    Also, the Podcast raves about the car and calls it the greatest Hypercar of all time.

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/podcast/new-tg-podcast-across-europe-gordon-murrays-t50-supercar

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

     


    --

     

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I hope someone takes it around the Ring... just to give an idea. The car is not about numbers, hard to compare it to the ones that have all the stability controls, but it still would be interesting to see.

    The car is not pretty, not ugly, but  I love it for it's essence . A driver's dream. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:

     

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

     

    Great video. I've been on the fence about some design elements on this car (Cough cough the fan), but man does it look good in motion, and the sounds, the usability. It really might be the best car in the world. 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Enmanuel:

    Great video. I've been on the fence about some design elements on this car (Cough cough the fan), but man does it look good in motion, and the sounds, the usability. It really might be the best car in the world. 

    Yes, the T.33 does without the fan and may be more pleasing from a design perspective.  But, I would surely love a T.50

    This is the only other new car (besides things like Singer and other resto-mods) that improves on my GT3 while staying in the same basic category (high-rev, NA, Manual, relatively lightweight).  Of course, it seems far better (and is 20x the price).  I would really make some sacrifices to own this thing Smiley


    --

     

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I suspect a lot of down time in the car. Also, when did Porsche stop making sport cars?

     


    --

    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I’m interested in this one:

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44877786/gordon-murray-t33-s-confirmed/


    --

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:

    I’m interested in this one:

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44877786/gordon-murray-t33-s-confirmed/

    That is also my preferred one . 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    nberry:

    I suspect a lot of down time in the car. Also, when did Porsche stop making sport cars?

     


    I think the Cayenne came out in 2004…

     
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