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    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Gents I have had many Porsches from 928GTS to 911Turbos, 996's and 997's. Maybe I was lucky but I drove my cars hard from day one, did not abuse them but I did rev it up high for a few seconds here and there. Never ever had any issues with my car and ran like a champ always. I always do proper maintenance as required and keep my cars in my immaculate condition.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Why use hints then? That's a poor word choice. If they were English speaking lawyers, it would say suggestions or recommendations, don't you think? Hints is such a vague term. On the other hand, 2000 miles could not have been mistranslated. How do you mistranslate cold hard numbers?



    That's the whole point we're making. It's a vague term. It's in the TITLE of the section. The fact that they chose that specific word helps educate that break-in is more organic than systematic, and that's where I think you're having the conflict in your head, is in seeing the word "hint", and misunderstanding engine break-in as a methodical and repeatable process.

    It's NOT. And rather than re-hash all of the myriads of past discussions we've had on the subject, I'll refrain.

    But one line I did use before, I'll repeat. When your odometer finally clicks-over precisely to 2,000 miles, some little "break-in fairy" isn't going to jump out of the tailpipe and exclaim, "DONE!! And JUST in the knick of time I might add!!", having been steadily working on things right up until that very moment that his project reached the end". It's not like building a house. It occurs over a curve, with the lion's share of the wear-in loaded heavily into the earliest hours of use. But look at me, I'm re-hashing. Sorry!!!

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Hey welcome to the real world. No fairy at 2000 miles, but its true with a whole bunch of things in the world. You have to set a limit somewhere. For example, the drinking age is 21 years old, can a guy that is 20 and 11 months say, I'm going to go drinking because its close enough? In reality there isn't a big difference but you have to draw the line somewhere.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Funny that the 2000 miles is there because Porsche advises us to maintain light driving conditions!

    Get it? The manual says basically baby the car and by having us baby it they increase the number of miles it takes to complete the break in. It's totally recursive.

    So the joke's on us! If you choose to stay under 4200 RPMs it will take longer for the car to break in.

    If you ignore that (but at least drive nicely for the first 300-500 miles) your oil consumption will be really high (consumption may "alarm" you) but you'll break the car in sooner.

    LOL.

    I'm glad Panorama solved the freeking problem once and for all. It's out of the mouths of Porsche engineers: period. If people would only read it carefully.

    Here's my point "redlined:"

    Just to make sure you get it, the key point is contained in them suggesting but not requiring driving "under light driving conditions," so customers don't get alarmed at high oil consumption. driving lightly takes longer to accomplish break in: _therefore_ they specify 2000 miles. I'm still chuckling

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    You have to set a limit somewhere. For example, the drinking age is 21 years old, can a guy that is 20 and 11 months say, I'm going to go drinking because its close enough?



    Humans can be forced by law to follow such "digital" rules, engines not
    I guess the boss's post refers to the fact that the break in process should be a sliding one, not a "digital" one: it just doesn't make sense to baby the engine (for whatever mileage) by never touching the redline and then (just after hitting whatever mileage) all of a sudden to drive the crap out of the car
    The factory guy just told me: drive it like always (including touching the redline now and then), just avoid full throttle/top speed or brutally pushing the pedal for 1,000 or 1,500 km and it will be o.k. That's exactly the procedure I used for all my cars so far and I never had any problems

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Hey welcome to the real world. No fairy at 2000 miles, but its true with a whole bunch of things in the world. You have to set a limit somewhere. For example, the drinking age is 21 years old, can a guy that is 20 and 11 months say, I'm going to go drinking because its close enough? In reality there isn't a big difference but you have to draw the line somewhere.



    So you're the guy who follows those suggested speeds in corners with the triangular yellow "suggestion" signs??

    What about speed limits?

    Suggested and/or rigid limits are set for us everywhere. The trick is being able to place each one within a proper context, according to the potential risk and with appropriate concern for public safety, i.e.:

    "Warning, duckling crossing" isn't nearly as critical to draw the line on as "warning, cliff"....

    Blind compliance with zero understanding or framework of context, is just that..

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    "Warning, duckling crossing" isn't nearly as critical to draw the line on as "warning, cliff"....





    Exactly.

    What's funny, in retrospect, is everyone assumed the 2000 mile hint was to keep the engine from prematurely self-destructing.

    The fact is the "warning" has been made to prevent a large number of new owners from becoming "alarmed" at high oil consumption.

    Funny that the 2000 mile "warning" is put there to prevent the dealers and customer service people from getting flooded with phone calls! Probably also to avoid hassel of Porsche's getting the unwarrented reputation of being excessive oil burners.


    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Is excellence a factory magazine? And I love the I heard it from a friend line. Oh yea, that gives it credibility.

    Go by the book.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    And do not remove the tag from your mattress under penalty of law...

    And always shampoo, rinse, and then REPEAT.

    Excellence must've conjured up phony imposter Porsche engineers as part of their sinister plan to undermine the integrity of all new 997 owner's engine internals...

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Is excellence a factory magazine? And I love the I heard it from a friend line. Oh yea, that gives it credibility.

    Go by the book.



    Going by the book is fine. It just takes you longer to achieve break-in.

    Panorama (P Club of Amer.) and Excellence are the premier Porschephile magazines in USA. Whatever they say is heavily scrutinized. There's very little BS factor. If Bruce Anderson says he was talking to Porsche engine engineers and reports what he hears you can be guarenteed he's not BSing.

    Can't say the same for Road&Track and Car&Driver since they're constantly fluffing everything up.

    What's nice about this Excellence article is it's the first time that I know of where Porsche engineers' voices have been documented on the matter of breakin.


    As for the trustworthiness of Porsche factory publications you'd have to believe they are slanted to favor Porsche's interests, which not always the owner's.

    I think the matter is settled. If you want to save money on oil DEFINITELY follow the breakin "hints."


    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    And do not remove the tag from your mattress under penalty of law...

    And always shampoo, rinse, and then REPEAT.

    Excellence must've conjured up phony imposter Porsche engineers as part of their sinister plan to undermine the integrity of all new 997 owner's engine internals...



    Umm, if you read the tag, like if you'd read the FACTORY MANUAL, the tag says that you can take the tag off after you buy said item. Of course you'd probably wait for someone on an internet chat board to tell you that its OK to do so. In which case, I heard it from a guy whose brother works at the factory that its OK to take the tag off.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    You need a beer. Just ignore the warning if you're a pregnant woman....

    Follow your owner's manual to the letter, knock yourself out... I don't need lectured on the value of reference materials, I have a large library here of factory service and assembly manuals for every car I own. The owner's manual is a fairly small and general piece of consumer fluff in comparison, and I'll take the word of a powertrain engineer (who has direct involvement in the publishing of factory service literature) over a "how-to-open-your-ashtray" glovebox booklet that states a break-in procedure under "hints".

    Man alive, the manual could suggest you to pee on the windshield to melt ice, and there would be at least one guy who'd find it reckless to use a scraper instead...

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    Man alive, the manual could suggest you to pee on the windshield to melt ice, and there would be at least one guy who'd find it reckless to use a scraper instead...



    ROTFL. Funny. You never know though, the one guy refusing scraper use might be a highly regarded thoracic surgeon.

    I'm just happy we got some ultra-credible and very convincing information on the subject.

    People can be well-informed before making their own decisions about how they want to breakin their cars.


    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    MMD or 69 are you either a factory engineer or a Porsche engineer? Then don't come on the forum and spew out info like you are one. Your post are merely opinion. Don't come here and tell everyone that your opinion is correct. For those that want to follow the FACTORY recommended break in, then they are as valid as any of your opinions are.

    All you can quote is heresay, or maybe hints. I quote the published factory manual.

    End of story. That's definitive.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Well, I have talked to a Porsche engineer directly, and one ranked very, VERY highly in the powertrain department, and he echoes *exactly* what is said in the Tech Note to which this thread refers.

    My question came from a slightly different angle, however: I was wondering if the engines are still measured for output, with those that fail to get within a certain percentage sent back for further evaluation and/or a fix. His answer was "yes." My next question concerned the point of the break-in procedure if the engine has already been wrung out...

    His answer is similar to (and compatible with) the one you see in Bruce's answer to the Excellence reader. With today's metalurgy and oil technology, he says there is simply no need to break an engine in through gentle use.

    He said the real reason for the break-in period, in addition to some of those mentioned here, is because the car as a system is completely new and untested. And so is the driver in said vehicle...

    I think this is VERY smart, as limiting the rpm and load is a great way to get Porsche drivers actually warm up to their new cars.

    Based on my conversation with this engineer, I would have no problem winding a 987/997/GT3 engine out from new -- but readers must make their own judgements and I would advise thinking about the idea that a new car is a complex device that is untested with a driver that, importantly, still needs to work up to their individual possibilities in their new car.

    For this reason alone, I won't fault those who are more comfortable following the recommended break-in "hints" -- but not for the engine's sake.

    As for me, personally? In the last new car I bought, I changed the oil and filter after 400 miles or so, just to get any "shavings" out of the lubrication system. Probably overkill, I know, but also about the cheapest insurance you can buy.

    One last note: I'm not sure Porsche's recommendations always have the long-term owner's best intentions at heart. Oil change intervals at 15,000 (or 20,000!) miles meet requirements for effective marketing, but I change the oil in our Boxster every 7,500 miles regardless....

    Cheers!

    pete

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    MMD or 69 are you either a factory engineer or a Porsche engineer? Then don't come on the forum and spew out info like you are one. Your post are merely opinion. Don't come here and tell everyone that your opinion is correct. For those that want to follow the FACTORY recommended break in, then they are as valid as any of your opinions are.

    All you can quote is heresay, or maybe hints. I quote the published factory manual.

    End of story. That's definitive.





    I'm afraid you missed THE whole point of this thread: The essay in Excellence by Bruce Anderson.


    You don't quote anything of any interest to this thread.


    The thread quotes Mr. Anderson.


    Reread what he wrote at the beginning of this thread.


    Thank you.



    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Warm err up and run err hard.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Umm, I quoted the Factory supplied manual that comes with every new 911 delivered to the USA. How about that as a quote of interest?

    Straight from the horses mouth? Not the I heard it from a friend of a friend ancedotal ramblings that you pick and choose from the internet.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    I must confess to renting a new 997 Cab in 2005 with 75 km on the clock. I drove it gently for an hour on the way to the Nordschleife then drove it at race speed on the track for a few days. The car was humming very happily when I returned it a week later.

    My own cars get a slightly longer break-in period - about 1000 km is sufficient before taking a car to the track. I have that info straight from God, so it must be right

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Thanks for sharing MMD, very interesting stuff. I have one observation to add to this "break in" theory. My 997S was stronger at 10K miles than it was at 5K miles. I followed the breakin procedures according to Porsches reccomendations. There is definatly a "breakin curve" with these cars. I'm NOT referring to initial breakin but a point in time when the engine reaches its full potential. For some it takes 10K miles to reach that point. I think running the car hard sooner, shortens the time that your engine takes to reach its full potential. Not sure if this makes any sense but thats my theory?

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Texas911, the metaphorical BIBLE you're referring to says "HINTS" at the top of the page.... And NOWHERE on the page, does it construct ANY context as to how critical adherance may be... In other words, it's fluff, it's "hey buddy, you may try this..", it's engineering with product managers with brand managers with lawyers with warranty suits with executives with marketers all finding a middle-ground language that they will all agree to sign off on. The manual was not first carved on the inside of Ferdinand Porsche's coffin, exhumed, and then cut into small sections so that it could be fit into a hat, and translated by some relative of Joseph Smith.

    The numerous motivations behind the break-in "hints" reaches FAR beyond simple metallurgy, and it's those motivations that the article MMD brought to us touches upon.

    If your college text book told you to end each thesis with "Word to yer Mutha", and you bought it lock, stock and barrel, and later someone produced an interview with the author who said, "It was a joke people, a JOKE... people aren't really DOING that, are they?", you would likely respond with a 50-page thesis on the heresay nature of the interview, and at the bottom of the last page would be "Word to yer Mutha" in bold...

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    gradyex said:
    Thanks for sharing MMD, very interesting stuff. I have one observation to add to this "break in" theory. My 997S was stronger at 10K miles than it was at 5K miles. I followed the breakin procedures according to Porsches reccomendations. There is definatly a "breakin curve" with these cars. I'm NOT referring to initial breakin but a point in time when the engine reaches its full potential. For some it takes 10K miles to reach that point. I think running the car hard sooner, shortens the time that your engine takes to reach its full potential. Not sure if this makes any sense but thats my theory?



    1. Unless you've got a slew of 1/4 mile dragstrip timeslips to support, how do you really know if and how much faster your car is? Seat of the pants??

    2. Don't confuse a motor being "fully-broken-in" with a motor that has worn enough to become "loose". Two different events COMPLETELY.

    3. Any number of other fellows on here could say their cars are faster at 10,000 than 5,000, and say they hammered the thing right off the lot. You're speculating that your adherence to the break-in has anything to do with how good the car runs now. There could be zero relationship for all you know.

    Not trying to be snippy, just making some points. I realize that this thread's getting heated, and I'm guilty to an extent. I just get frustrated!!

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    gradyex said:
    I think running the car hard sooner, shortens the time that your engine takes to reach its full potential. Not sure if this makes any sense but thats my theory?



    Makes sense to my amateur hobbyist brain. Again, I'm glad to hear testimony from excmag above that breakin is not so much a matter of gentle gradual wearin in of parts as it is other factors. (of course apparently not everybody here will believe that... oh well..., no problem ).

    I wish I had had time to bring the unit to a dynomometer shop at a few points during the mileage run up.

    Would also be interesting to have it checked now to see if it's got its fully-rated HP.

    Nuts..., who am I kidding...? I'll never do it.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Don't use your brain, just follow the hints.... Learning a little about mechanics and engineering is such humdrum speculation anyhow..

    I had a chassis dyno doing pulls in my parking lot during my annual Mustang and Ford show that I put on... I simply didn't have the desire to absorb the GRIEF I would have gotten from the crowd if I had pulled my Porsche out, and rolled it onto the Dyno. They would've started tossing tomatos...LOL!!! There was a mildly modded 2007 Shelby that won the top-honors on the dyno with 580 h.p. at the rear wheels though..

    I've gotta believe that our 3.8's are a touch under-rated, which has alwasy been typical with Porsche. Under-promise, over-deliver, and your customers will always smile.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Warm err up and run err hard.



    Frankly, I feel this is a FAR more important element in helping an engine last than any break-in procedure this side of stupidity.

    If there are two things I see far too regularly, both in your average car guy and, far too often, your average car "expert"/journalist, it's:

    -Failing to let the oil warm up before revving past 4000 rpm or so and/or putting a heavy load on the engine
    -"Slam-shifting"

    Both fall under the category of "hard on the machinery," which is a real pet peeve of mine. It's abusive and it doesn't make you any faster. The ironic thing is that these are often the same people who get very angry when the car breaks and blame Porsche. A lot of professional racers fit in this category, too, so it appears to be a personality/"style" trait, but if you talk to the team mechanics, they'll always have their favorites...

    For cars with oil temp gauges (thanks, Porsche, for putting them back into 911s), you know when the oil is up to an acceptable range. For those with out, such as my 986 and all non-Ruf 987s, I tend to wait a solid 5-10 minutes before accessing the upper range of the engine. Thick oil = too much oil pressure.

    I see it again and again, car guys going three blocks after starting a hot car from cold and then standing on it....

    If you want to see a car maintain its wonderful feel for 50,000, 100,000, or 300,000 miles (or just treat it right while you've got it), warming it up properly, shifting with two finger pressure and "training" the shift gates, learning how to heel-and-toe (also using this for hill-holding), and smoothing ALL of your inputs will take you a very, very long ways.

    And make you a faster, safer driver in the process. Win, win, win.

    There's no reason for this thread to get heated. All of you are just trying to get a handle on several good data points, make an informed decision, and take better care of our cars to make them last longer. That makes this a great discussion, the best kind on these forums.

    I wish I could tell you the source for my information, but I think I'd better not for obvious reasons. Suffice to say, were I to tell you, it would go far beyond anything resembling "a friend told me."

    Again, cheers -- and I hope the information Bruce Anderson and Excellence brought you proves to be helpful. Of course, there is no requirement that you accept it!



    pete

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Hey, I agree with everything in your post. But are you a Porsche engineer?? Otherwise, spare us the speculation and heresay... The owner's manual doesn't speak to allowing the oil to warm up, so it MUST not be important..(I just can't stop, sarcasm taking over, must pry fingers from keyboard...)

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    i see that for MMD and 69 this topic is very important. But I'm just trying to balance out their opinion. Those who choose to follow the book, is just as valid as to those who heard it from a friend of a friend people (MMD and 69). The title of this post saya Difinitive. Obviously it isn't.

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    The title of this post saya Difinitive. Obviously it isn't.



    Yep, saw that and had to chuckle and roll my eyes. I guess I've got to take stuff like this as a compliment about the magazine and its writers, but it scares me, too. We are just one voice that is providing data points that are hopefully accurate and helpful.

    I am not sure there is such a thing as a definitive break-in procedure when you have so many data points that are conflicting.

    In summary, here's what we know:

    -The factory owner's manual has a (very) conservative set of hints that dictates low rpm and light loads for many, many miles.

    -Porsche tests engines for power output as soon as they're built and then installs them in cars, so many of the engines being gingerly driven before their "first" trip to the upper reaches and redline have already been there.

    -Two high-ranking Porsche engineers have been quoted as saying that there is no real, mechanical *engine-related* reason to limit rpm early on, one by BA, whom many of us trust, and the other by me, and I think I can trust this quote since I was there to hear it.

    -An engineer at the highest level has said that it's the whole car, not the engine, that they are worried about if someone pushes it to the max right off the showroom floor. Being realistic, a car is very complex and relies on a lot of bits being attached correctly. I suspect failures are rare, but unavoidable. The other reason, hinted at but not said, is to "persuade" drivers to warm up to a new and very high performance automobile slowly and safely. In all but a few cases, the most suspect and limiting element in a new Porsche is the nut behind the wheel, and I suspect those exceptions (WR is one, IMHO) would tell you that it is no different for them, either.

    -Many engine builders (respected ones) put engines on the dyno after a fresh build and a break-in that is far less than 1,000-2,000 miles. Builders like Jerry Woods, Alois Ruf, Olaf Manthey...

    Now, can a good analysis of the above (and possibly a few more data points) turn this into the definitive thread on this subject? I think it can.

    So, going from what we know, we can each make our own decisions. If I buy a new car, I align it immediately, warm up to the car slowly, listen for clunks and watch for strange behavior, change the oil and filter at 400-600 miles and...

    ...have no guilt in using its upper rpm from just about the word go.

    But then, that's JUST me and there are a lot of great things to be learned and observed in owner's manuals. Like not holding power steering on its lock for more than a few seconds, or making sure how to tow an AWD car depending on what system it uses, or that all 986s and 996s came with little aluminum screw-in pegs in their tool kits that are really helpful when changing those heavy alloy wheels by the side of the road, or...



    pete

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    The origin of the earth isn't definitively known. Yet you're standing on it. At some point, you can either chain yourself to a tree that represents the owner's manual, or you can consider the myriad shades-of-grey that hits the editing room floor before the manual is printed.

    Just because it's not in print, in a car-knowledge-delete consumer-oriented booklet, doesn't mean it's not real.

    Tossing the heresay or undefinitive flag every time somebody thinks outside of the manual is just a cop-out, an easy excuse to bypass and not debate the merits of the suggestion.

    Not much different than having a theological debate, and with every idea proposed, the other party kneejerks a copy of the Bible down and says, "sorry, that's not in the book, therefore you're wrong..."

    Anyhoo, thanks for helping us poor pilgrims out Pete. I agree, the body of evidence, in addition to my decent level of faith that you guys aren't just making things up to amuse yourselves, compels me to not worry about all the times I slithered past 4,300 rpm in my car's youth. Not that I didn't know it was harmless to begin with, from my own hands-on experience with engine rebuilds...

    Plato Out....

    Re: Case closed: Definitive Break-in Procedure

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    [quote When your odometer finally clicks-over precisely to 2,000 miles, some little "break-in fairy" isn't going to jump out of the tailpipe and exclaim, "DONE!!




    She did for me.... You guys didn't get that option?,,,hmmmmm should have.

     
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