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    Driving in the snow today :(

    I had watched the weather forecast last night on the news - the heavy snow was due to arrive around lunchtime today ...

    So my wife and I woke up early this morning to avoid the Xmas shopping rush with the aim of getting back home before the snow came - so we set out for our weekly grocery shopping in our 911. Just as we were finishing up at Waitrose supermarket, I looked out of the window and my heart sank. The snow flurries had just started Smiley The sudden snow was unbelievable. About 15cm had fallen in about 20 minutes. I have never seen anything like it. It fell so fast!

    Exiting the underground car park uphill, the steep slope was already covered in snow so I just kept a very slow but steady speed in 1st gear. Some PSM intervention but I just about managed to reach the top of the slope. Once on level roads, I was fine at first. I literally had a 2 minute drive left to get back home. I thought we had timed our shopping trip with just enough time to get home before the snow arrived but we had overrun by 20-30 mins.

    Very slow and steady driving on the roads in 1st gear did the trick - but I had a tiny slide of 20-30cm or so which made me think: I just hope I get home safely.

    Some of the other cars had already collided. Their drivers had simply been driving too fast for the weather conditions.

    A short while later I was back home safely in the underground car park of our apartment building. Such a relief! Our 2 minute drive took 20 minutes instead. All the while, the snow was falling very heavily.

    My impressions: RWD with summer tyres that are not designed to operate in temperatures below 7C can be disastrous if caught out by a sudden influx of snow and/or ice. PS2s have very little ability in snow and ice. The tyres lose all their suppleness at low temperatures and feel 'solid' and hard.

    Much of the UK has now ground to a halt due to the sudden snowfall. Thank goodness I made it back safely.

    --

    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 3.jpg


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

     I have been caught once with the 997S and the PS2's in the snow, it "almost" never snows here... not fun at all  so I feel for what you went through, I had only a few centimeters of snow but I had a 100 mile trip back home at night so I couldn't go too slow or I would never make it back home and there were a few close calls, the summer PS2 tires have no grip at all in those situations. Actually I was even more worried about the other drivers around me, some people have no clue about adapting their speed to the road conditions, either too fast or too slow  and they posed an even greater danger.

     

    Must of been quite a snowfall up there! my niece was supposed to be traveling back today for xmas vacation and had to go from Heathrow back to the school again  hopefully tomorrow flights will start to take off again...


    --


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    I leave my 911 in the garage and use the wife's car in such conditions - that is what wives are for...

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

     When our first unusual snow falls arrived on the 30 of november , my car was still on summer tyres. I had to leave it home for 5 days, as the roads where covered in snow.

    In the last days we had snow again, but this time I have my winter tyres on and have absolutely no problem driving in snow covered roads 

    Glad you got home safely 


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    I had a really different experience in the snow yesterday.  The week before last I bought  a spare set of rims with 18" Michelin Alpin (these came direct from Porsche and were remarkably good value).  My summer tyres are 18" PS2 for comparison.  After a week of being able to try them in varing conditions, they responded pretty much as everyone has posted here in the past.

    Above 8 degrees in the dry, the grip is poor but they do let go very gently, which has been fun.  Below 8 degrees in the dry they are not much better in terms of grip to the PS2, even down to -4.  But the ride is so much better, particularly high frequency isolation.

    In the wet its a different kettle of fish, which was the main reason I bought them.  Below 10 degrees they are superior and below 4 degrees a transformation.  I really am pleased  because this was what we generally experience here in the south of the UK during winter.

    But this weekend has been the sternest test.  Driving home from work on Friday it was hovering about zero and sleety.  The tyres were superb and it was like driving in summer rain from the grip perspective.  But the downside was everyone else pussyfooting around with little grip.  Very frustrating.

    As Easy said, it snowed heavily yesterday - we had about 8 inches in 4 hours, which I have never experienced here in the south of the UK before.  I went out in the middle of it and about an inch fell in 10 minutes.  The tyres coped really well, with the only difficulty being traction off the line (I discovered using the handbrake as you would for a hill start solved this one - obvious in hindsight).  Cornering and braking were fine up to about 25mph, to the extend that I was comfortable overtaking a Range Rover. 

    When it stopped snowing, I went out again and it was fine.  Grip was far from plentiful but its enough to get by.  The only trouble I had was by pushing my luck.  There was a stretch of dual carriageway where no one had attempted to use the outside lane so I decided to try it.  The snow was deeper than the ground clearance of the car!  Keeping up the momentum was fine but I had to stop at some traffic lights and only just got going again.  Phew!

    All in all, I am really pleased with the tyres.  Our winters are mostly just above freezing and wet so I think the investment is worthwhile, particularly as my car is a daily driver.  The last few years have been a bit colder with more snow and if this trend continues, I not have cause for concern now. 


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Fortunately the main roads are all clear now - just the side streets are icy and slippery  


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 3.jpg


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    I really feel the use of winter tyres should be obligatory in countries where snow is likely.

    I had to be somewhere today and all roads are covered in a thick layer of snow, the way people drive as a consequence of panic and inappropriate tyres is massively frustrating if you happen to have winter tyres on your own car. I don't understand how a government always "concerned" by everyone's safety would allow people to drive around with zero grip.

    Instead they're concentrating on handing out fines to people who drank a couple of glasses of wine after a christmas dinner.


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Hi Easy Smiley I'm glad that nothing happened. I guess I would have left the 911 in the supermarket underground parking garage assuming that the typical London motorist neither has his car equipped with winter tires nor has too much experience how to drive on snow, which means high risk of a collision even if you manage the conditions perfectly Smiley

    @ GR: with traction probs off the line try PSM off Smiley

    Over here we have our almost daily dose of snow since two weeks (right now approximately 40 cm of snow even in the Rhine valley). The trucks are the nightmare - blocking the Autobahnen in the nearby hilly region. Result last Thursday: 300 km blocked Autobahnen Smiley Thus my wife needed 4 hrs for a 20 km Autobahn stretch and to make it worse the Boxster's left wiper broke while it was snowing Smiley

    I'd wish my new 4wd daily driver arrives earlier than promised Smiley 


    --
     

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porsche-Jeck:

     

    @ GR: with traction probs off the line try PSM off Smiley

     

     

    It was off, which resulted in some lurid oversteer Smiley


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    GR:
    Porsche-Jeck:

     

    @ GR: with traction probs off the line try PSM off Smiley

     

     

    It was off, which resulted in some lurid oversteer Smiley


    SmileySmiley


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porker:

    I really feel the use of winter tyres should be obligatory in countries where snow is likely.

    I had to be somewhere today and all roads are covered in a thick layer of snow, the way people drive as a consequence of panic and inappropriate tyres is massively frustrating if you happen to have winter tyres on your own car. I don't understand how a government always "concerned" by everyone's safety would allow people to drive around with zero grip.

    Instead they're concentrating on handing out fines to people who drank a couple of glasses of wine after a christmas dinner.

     I get amazed when watching the french news and seeing all the drivers in Paris and in the north west of France complaining that the government does not  clear the roads well and fast enough, when these guys are driving on summer tyres Smiley They need first to have the proper winter equipment and only after they can complain ( which most of the time they would not need to as they would be able to drive !!! )


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    keep it safe everyone


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Absolutely correct Gnil!


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

     Loving the Boxster in the snow with Blizzaks.. PSM off 


    --

    2007 987S, KW v3 1964 Type 1


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porsche-Jeck:

    ... I guess I would have left the 911 in the supermarket underground parking garage ... 

     
    Hi Porsche-Jeck Smiley Great to hear from you again Smiley

    About leaving my car behind, I had a boot full of food - couldn't leave it there when the decision to go was still about 80:20 at that time. By the time I was arriving home, the decision had become 40:60 (i.e. the snow had fallen so fast that the equation had changed drastically).

    Also, needed that food to eat this weekend and for the week ahead - no certainty that conditions won't get worse in the days to come - plus next Saturday is Xmas day so all the shops are closed Smiley

    Glad to hear your better half got back safely Smiley

    --

    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 3.jpg


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    easy_rider911:
    Porsche-Jeck:

    ... I guess I would have left the 911 in the supermarket underground parking garage ... 

     
    About leaving my car behind, I had a boot full of food - couldn't leave it there when the decision to go was still about 80:20 at that time.  


    Yes, Easy - I know that you love to make your decisions with mathematical precision Smiley, whereas the weather Gods prefer a random system Smiley

    Much better than me - I recall a completely unresponsible tour in an Alfa Spider on summer tires going from Cologne to Berlin (600 km) on the snow covered Autobahn Smiley

    Since then: never leave home in winter without winter tires Smiley BTW: the new Conti winter tires on the Boxster S are muuuuuch better (especially on snow) than the Pirelli winter tires we had before (my fault: who would assume that an Italian tire maker knows much about snow...) Smiley


    --
     

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    DaveGordon:

     Loving the Boxster in the snow with Blizzaks.. PSM off 

     

    Yes, the Boxster is a great drive in the snow with snowtires. Few years ago I drove a 986S to Arosa in fresh snow. Hardly any traffic, that was so much fun! 

    Here you do a virtual drive of the road:  www.kurvensicher.ch/


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Richard Meaden blogged about driving behaviour in the snow, I must say I agree with him...

    One of the benefits of being a freelancer is you only have to walk downstairs to get to your office. One of the downsides is if you’ve got a work appointment and don’t make it, you don’t get paid.

    So after spending the last week wondering what all the ‘Arctic Britain’ nonsense was about from the comfort of my desk (the East Midlands has been but dusted in snow) I embarked on an average kind of journey from the Northampton area to Gaydon in Warwickshire.

    Oh. My. God. What I witnessed ranged from the hilarious to the hair-raising, and all in conditions that would have your average Swiss, German, French or Italian driver wondering when the bad weather is going to arrive.

    Honestly having driven amongst my fellow British drivers I’m ashamed at the mass ineptitiude on show. To a man and woman everyone was wrapped in winter coats, hats, scarves and gloves, doubtless with a Thermos of life-saving Oxtail soup on the passenger seat and a shovel in the boot. They were also wearing saucer-eyed stares and sporting arms locked rigid at the elbows. I’ve never seen people look so scared behind the wheel, yet the roads were virtually clear of slush, let alone snow.

    Worse they were following each other like lemmings, so close that were one of them to try and stop the others would simpy pile into them. And all the while the middle of the three lanes was similarly clear of snow. They might have remembered to pack their soup and a shovel, but had forgotten to bring their common sense and even a shred of driving ability.

    I’m not talking gung-ho ‘so there I was drifting down the motorway’ stuff either. No, I’m talking basic stuff like looking beyond the end of your bonnet, anticipating what the traffic ahead is doing and not driving up the arse of the car in front. I'm also talking about not forgetting to remove the Snow Socks from your Passat and drive along the A43 ashen faced wondering what the flapping noise is, or weaving your way up the M40 at 30mph as you attempt to reach out of your window to rub your handkerchief on the windscreen to clear the build-up of grime.

    Clearly the average British driver is so close to the limit of their ability on a sunny summer’s day that any kind of adverse weather has them so far beyond their comfort zones they are on the verge of panic. I find this very scary.

    No we’re not used to such prolonged spells of snow and sub-zero temperatures, but that’s no excuse for the appalling standards of driving you’ll see throughout the UK when the weather turns bad. I’m sure the same people who drive at 15mph on a gritted dual carriageway because they can see snow on the hard shoulder also feel similarly freaked-out by heavy rain, or even darkness. How many people do you see dabbing their brakes at night for no good reason simply because there’s an oncoming car with its headlights on?

    If this really is the shape of British winters to come then mandatory fitting of winter tyres is just the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun). Clearly there’s no point in equiping cars to cope with winter when the drivers are so patently unable to operate them.

    It begs the question what learner drivers are actually taught prior to the driving test, and whether there should be a regular re-test to ensure skills are kept sharp. At the very least there should be an element of skid control as part of the test. Not to make them drive faster in bad conditions, but to ensure they are sufficiently aware to read the road conditions and sufficiently relaxed and in control to feel what their car is doing and react accordingly. The same goes for understanding how to get the best from ABS, not to mention traction and stability controls. The lessons learned here are pertinent to driving in all weathers, not just snow and ice.

    Here endeth the rant.

    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    "Clearly the average British driver is so close to the limit of their ability on a sunny summer’s day that any kind of adverse weather has them so far beyond their comfort zones they are on the verge of panic. I find this very scary."

    If it is any consolation... even though we get a lot more snow than most people, the average Swiss driver isn't any better educated or more secure driving on it. I find this very scary too.


    --

    Matt C
    2009 997 GT3 Mk2  / 1988 911 3.2 Conv.


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porker:


    Clearly the average British driver is so close to the limit of their ability on a sunny summer’s day that any kind of adverse weather has them so far beyond their comfort zones they are on the verge of panic.


    Just my view - but I think this blogger is indulging in exaggeration and sensationalism in a lame attempt to boost the attractiveness of his blog.

    Despite the sudden snow and ice, I haven't heard of any significant increase in the number of accidents. So drivers must be coping well enough to avoid collisions. Most of the news reports here are about motorists who have become stranded on the roads: for example if gritting the roads was delayed or if they got stuck on motorways behind jack-knived lorries.

    About winter tyres, I think that these should be used in areas where snow is expected to fall each year. In the SE of the UK, we have had heavy snow briefly in 3 of the past 8 years. We don't get extended periods of snow and ice. Before that, we have had nearly 15 years without meaningful snowfall. This lack of any consistent pattern is why there is no legal requirement to fit winter tyres. If I lived in the Scottish Highlands, then fitting winter tyres would obviously be common sense.

    --

    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 3.jpg


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    More snow is forecast for this evening and tomorrow morning


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    easy_rider911:
    Porker:


    Clearly the average British driver is so close to the limit of their ability on a sunny summer’s day that any kind of adverse weather has them so far beyond their comfort zones they are on the verge of panic.


    Just my view - but I think this blogger is indulging in exaggeration and sensationalism in a lame attempt to boost the attractiveness of his blog.

    Despite the sudden snow and ice, I haven't heard of any significant increase in the number of accidents. So drivers must be coping well enough to avoid collisions. Most of the news reports here are about motorists who have become stranded on the roads: for example if gritting the roads was delayed or if they got stuck on motorways behind jack-knived lorries.

    About winter tyres, I think that these should be used in areas where snow is expected to fall each year. In the SE of the UK, we have had heavy snow briefly in 3 of the past 8 years. We don't get extended periods of snow and ice. Before that, we have had nearly 15 years without meaningful snowfall. This lack of any consistent pattern is why there is no legal requirement to fit winter tyres. If I lived in the Scottish Highlands, then fitting winter tyres would obviously be common sense.

    IMO, a blog is a means of entertainment, to write on a blog in a considerate manner might be missing the point of writing a blog. Of course it is exaggerated, but there is a lot of truth in his observations, again imo. If I make my commute these days, I'm constantly held up by people on the verge of having a breakdown, or so it seems when you see their faces behind the wheel. People seem to panic in snow while all one needs to do is adapt to the conditions.

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.

     

     


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porker:

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.


    That was my reasoning and their performance particularly in the wet below 7 degrees has made the investment worthwhile in my view.  The ability to stay mobile in the snow is a great bonus


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Porker:

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    easy_rider911:
    Porker:

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley

    The only additional cost is really that of the wheels, since you are effectively extending the life of your summer tyres when your winter set is installed. Smiley

    Many car manufacturers do a good deal on winter tyres/wheels through their official dealers. I haven't checked to know for sure if that applies to Porsche GB, but I believe it does. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    easy_rider911:
    Porker:

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley

    And most people don't have the extra storage space inside their homes.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    reginos:


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley

    And most people don't have the extra storage space inside their homes.

     You store them at your dealer. They clean them and the costs are peanuts compared to overall ownership costs.


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    Isn't it perfectly possible to fit winter tyres to your only set of wheels? Agreed constantly getting tyres off and on them isn't ideal, but if you really want to save the cost of a set of wheel, it is possible...


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    fritz:
    easy_rider911:
    Porker:

    Regarding winter tyres, it's a common misconseption -which I'm sure you know- that winter tyres are only useful in snowy conditions. Every day under 7°c would be a day where winter tyres prove useful, so where would be the harm in fitting them? It's not even an extra cost as you're saving your summer tyres during winter.


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley

    The only additional cost is really that of the wheels, since you are effectively extending the life of your summer tyres when your winter set is installed. Smiley


     

    Agreed - I understand that fritz - I was just talking in absolute terms - buying a set of winter tyres does involve buying a second set of tyres and wheels albeit just for winter usage.

    Also, I would suppose that one would seek to sell these items when selling the car - I wonder how much they would fetch?

    --

    RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: Driving in the snow today :(

    993Targa:
    reginos:


    Agreed Smiley But regarding cost, one has to pay for the winter tyres and the wheels to go with them Smiley So there is some cost involved Smiley

    And most people don't have the extra storage space inside their homes.

     You store them at your dealer. They clean them and the costs are peanuts compared to overall ownership costs.

    And peanuts in relation to the disruption of both people's lives and the economy as whole resulting from the breakdown of traffic flow which bears no relation at all to the true severity of the weather. 
    I am currently in the UK, so I'm not talking through the top of my head when I say that. I know some regions here have been hit harder, but where I am the weather is almost balmy, there has been no real fresh snow since Sunday, and yet no postal deliveries have been made in this area since last Thursday. Royal Mail naturallySmiley does not fit its vans with winter tyres, but they could get around main roads here on slicks today. Smiley

    I can also confirm what Porker said about the widely held misconception that winter tyres are only required for snow, That is far from being the case, especially far cars normally fitted with high performance summer tyres, whose performanc falls off steeply at temps below 7°C. Its just that the summer tyres don't even begin to work on snow. 


    --

    fritz


     
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