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    Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Now first off, I'm not a fan of Fifthgear - their supposed scientific tests are anything but (at  least the top gear guys admit to simply cocking about).  It is still an interesting comparison though.  Plato looks like he's making a right pig's ear of the PDK - he'd have been faster in automatic mode!

     

    Hope its not a re-post


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    This program is in the light entertainment category. Plato (where did he get this greek name?) is not even funny.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    He may not be as funny, but he doesn't need to, unlike the guys at TopGear, Plato actually knows how to drive a sportcar, has pro racing experience, is a 911 fan for the right reasons... and personally I usually agree with most of his opinions which are also more substantiated and worthy that the ones from the three musketeers at TopGear.

    That said, no, Fifth Gear is not nearly as entertaining (everything else in the program except Tiff and Platos' tests is simply rubbish), its pretty sad. Gone are the good old days when Tiff got to do what he liked and ran Top Gear years ago, Vicky was young and firery, and JC was the clown in he staff doing some side bits for entertainment


    --


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Plato, having pro racing experience, is probably used to the conventional paddle system and needs to aquaint himself with the puddle layout before doing a true comparison. In addition it appears the PDK model did not have Sport Chrono which I assume enhances the gearbox during track use


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Gilmour:

     In addition it appears the PDK model did not have Sport Chrono which I assume enhances the gearbox during track use

     Look again.  The manual car had no Sport Chrono, but the PDK did have it.


    --
    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs) Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    I don't even bother watching Fifth Gear. The two main presenters are scruffy, illiterate morons - they can't even pronounce "Porsche" correctly which I find intensely irritating. Even the tests conducted by the able Jason and Tiff tend to be little more than boy-racer pranks rather than anything meaningful.

    Total crap.


    --
    Boxster S 3.4 06 Cobalt / Ocean Blue (Zuffenhausen collection)  BMW 123d M Sport 08 Le Mans Blue / Lemon

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Grant:
    Gilmour:

     In addition it appears the PDK model did not have Sport Chrono which I assume enhances the gearbox during track use

     Look again.  The manual car had no Sport Chrono, but the PDK did have it.


    Total true.

    And to add further fact-Porsche designed PDK to work very best in D(auto) mode! We discussed that here on rennteam in few occasions.

    7.50min Ring time is done by HvS in Sport Plus D mode.

    Look at Temm's thread about 997.2 CS drive on Alps. Interesting note about corner exit speed difference between manual and PDK...

     

    On my test drive of manual and PDK 997.2 CS I noticed one other pretty interesting and unusual thing-difference in coolant and oil temperature. On the same route it was lower on manual car. I asked my Porsche source why and he said it is normal that way... On manual car it was within normal limits and on PDK car it was touching red zone. Same oil and coolant level on both cars.


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    KresoF1:

     On my test drive of manual and PDK 997.2 CS I noticed one other pretty interesting and unusual thing-difference in coolant and oil temperature. On the same route it was lower on manual car. I asked my Porsche source why and he said it is normal that way... On manual car it was within normal limits and on PDK car it was touching red zone. Same oil and coolant level on both cars.

    I drive in 38-40 centigrade ambient temperatures recently and the coolant temp is always in the middle and the oil temp never above 105-110 (gauge goes to 150). I usually choose B roads( less traffic and less police) and use plenty of revs. On Sunday I drove to a mountain at 2000m from sea level with dozens of 2 and 3 gear bends and temps were pretty normal Cars here after a trip like that really burn so much that you cannot touch the metal around the engine.

    Therefore, your observations from your test drive surprise me Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    KresoF1:

    7.50min Ring time is done by HvS in Sport Plus D mode.

    Look at Temm's thread about 997.2 CS drive on Alps. Interesting note about corner exit speed difference between manual and PDK...

     


    I agree that on the track the car works best ( fatest times) in sports plus D mode. On B roads, overriding D is needed to be more efficiant.

    It was my car behind Temm's , but it would take one or two more 'serious' trys to be shure about that.

    I did read in the french Flat6 mag that the PDK car is slower on recovery ( reprises), like from 80 to 100, but that could be due to gearing .

    Anyway, the 997.2 PDK is faster on the track then a 996.2 GT3 . To me that is pretty satisfying .


    --
     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    reginos:
    KresoF1:

     On my test drive of manual and PDK 997.2 CS I noticed one other pretty interesting and unusual thing-difference in coolant and oil temperature. On the same route it was lower on manual car. I asked my Porsche source why and he said it is normal that way... On manual car it was within normal limits and on PDK car it was touching red zone. Same oil and coolant level on both cars.

    I drive in 38-40 centigrade ambient temperatures recently and the coolant temp is always in the middle and the oil temp never above 105-110 (gauge goes to 150). I usually choose B roads( less traffic and less police) and use plenty of revs. On Sunday I drove to a mountain at 2000m from sea level with dozens of 2 and 3 gear bends and temps were pretty normal Cars here after a trip like that really burn so much that you cannot touch the metal around the engine.

    Therefore, your observations from your test drive surprise me Smiley

     

    Me also. There is only explanation that I drove mostly in Sport Plus D mode. Coolant was indeed in the middle on both cars. Oil temp was around 115-120 on PDK car, while on manual car(Sport mode) it was 110 tops.
     

     


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Gnil:
    KresoF1:

    7.50min Ring time is done by HvS in Sport Plus D mode.

    Look at Temm's thread about 997.2 CS drive on Alps. Interesting note about corner exit speed difference between manual and PDK...

     


    I agree that on the track the car works best ( fatest times) in sports plus D mode. On B roads, overriding D is needed to be more efficiant.

    It was my car behind Temm's , but it would take one or two more 'serious' trys to be shure about that.

    I did read in the french Flat6 mag that the PDK car is slower on recovery ( reprises), like from 80 to 100, but that could be due to gearing .

    Anyway, the 997.2 PDK is faster on the track then a 996.2 GT3 . To me that is pretty satisfying .


    Tell me what is your usual mode for daily driving? Personally, for me Sport D works pretty good for dynamic daily driving(with occasional use on Sport M mode).


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    KresoF1:
    Gnil:
    KresoF1:

    7.50min Ring time is done by HvS in Sport Plus D mode.

    Look at Temm's thread about 997.2 CS drive on Alps. Interesting note about corner exit speed difference between manual and PDK...

     


    I agree that on the track the car works best ( fatest times) in sports plus D mode. On B roads, overriding D is needed to be more efficiant.

    It was my car behind Temm's , but it would take one or two more 'serious' trys to be shure about that.

    I did read in the french Flat6 mag that the PDK car is slower on recovery ( reprises), like from 80 to 100, but that could be due to gearing .

    Anyway, the 997.2 PDK is faster on the track then a 996.2 GT3 . To me that is pretty satisfying .


    Tell me what is your usual mode for daily driving? Personally, for me Sport D works pretty good for dynamic daily driving(with occasional use on Sport M mode).


    Like you, my usual  mode is Sport D and I override it pretty often. When doing spirited driving, I go in sports plus D and I overrride or sport + Manual.

    When on the highway, usually in nomal mode D , as then the driving is smoother, I use less petrol and anyway I do not have the possibility to drive sporty as too much traffic. 


    --
     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    Personally, I wouldn't touch PDK with a ten foot pole. Jason's remarks are spot-on.

    A few weeks ago, I had a chance to drive a 997.2 C2S with PDK for a whole day and I was very disappointed, for several reasons:

    1. The automatic setting is only useful when you're just moving from A to B. I know there's a sport setting, but that's even worse, because it constantly revs above 5000 rpm, which sounds spectacular, but is incredibly annoying.

    2. Even in full manual mode, a kickdown still shifts down. Why on earth is this? When going through a long corner, it's sometimes better to keep the revs at 4 or 5,000 rpm and floor the throttle when you're about to exit. When done well, it keeps the car perfectly balanced and you can upshift at the exit. Problem is that "flooring" the throttle mid-corner actually downshifts, upsetting the balance of the car. And this is in full manual mode!

    3. The controls are all wrong. The steering wheel buttons and floor stick are completely unnatural. Everyone knows that pushing means "down", pulling means "up". It's just a result of the natural motion of your body when braking or accelerating. There is no excuse for reversing the controls like Porsche did. They should at least allow the customer to choose their configuration (or offer paddles behind the steering wheel)

    Just my 2 cents...

    -Philippe- 


    --
    2007 997 C2, GT-Silver, 19" Classic, PASM

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    activa:

    Personally, I wouldn't touch PDK with a ten foot pole. Jason's remarks are spot-on.

    A few weeks ago, I had a chance to drive a 997.2 C2S with PDK for a whole day and I was very disappointed, for several reasons:

    1. The automatic setting is only useful when you're just moving from A to B. I know there's a sport setting, but that's even worse, because it constantly revs above 5000 rpm, which sounds spectacular, but is incredibly annoying.

    2. Even in full manual mode, a kickdown still shifts down. Why on earth is this? When going through a long corner, it's sometimes better to keep the revs at 4 or 5,000 rpm and floor the throttle when you're about to exit. When done well, it keeps the car perfectly balanced and you can upshift at the exit. Problem is that "flooring" the throttle mid-corner actually downshifts, upsetting the balance of the car. And this is in full manual mode!

    3. The controls are all wrong. The steering wheel buttons and floor stick are completely unnatural. Everyone knows that pushing means "down", pulling means "up". It's just a result of the natural motion of your body when braking or accelerating. There is no excuse for reversing the controls like Porsche did. They should at least allow the customer to choose their configuration (or offer paddles behind the steering wheel)

    Just my 2 cents...

    -Philippe- 

    I can understand your disappointment because one day is not enough to get used to and "learn" the PDK.

    So let me express my opinion to your points, after 6 months and 10000kms.

    1. As there are 3 setting, the middle setting (sport) is very suitable for all sorts of driving and it doesn't instantly exceed 5000rpm. What you have in mind is the Sport Plus mode that you rarely need but it's fun to use every so often. The standard setting is very lazy for economy and low emissions and good in traffic or when you don't care to go fast. The Sport setting is excellent in throttle response and gear changes and with real Porsche feel.

    2. Once you get used to throttle pedal you will never involuntarily kick down from Manual mode. I can floor the throttle without overcoming the kickdown spring unless I want to. It's a matter of acclimatisation. However, sometimes if you wish to kickdown in manual mode instead of using the controls, the facility is there.

    3. Unless you drive different cars with different controls interchangeably the PDK controls become second nature very soon. Anyway, as from 02/2010 there will be an optional sports steering wheel with typical paddles (right +, left -) in order to cater for all tastes.

    When I drive my friend's 997.1 manual after the PDK, the conventional car feels like a step back in time. It's a pity spending all this money for a 911 and staying with manual. The PDK is very exploitable and once you get the hang of it a pleasure to use.

    Of course this is just my personal opinion.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    reginos:
    3. Unless you drive different cars with different controls interchangeably the PDK controls become second nature very soon. Anyway, as from 02/2010 there will be an optional sports steering wheel with typical paddles (right +, left -) in order to cater for all tastes.

     

    It's still unnatural IMHO. I'm sure most people could get used to it, but I sure couldn't. One of the reasons why Porsche makes such appealing cars is that they are the closest thing to a race car that you can buy (for reasonable money).

    I've been racing cars for many years and in race cars there are only 3 types of transmissions: manual, sequential using a stick and sequential using paddles. It's not hard to switch between them because they all have different operating modes, but the problem is that the PDK controls are exactly the opposite of what they are in race cars. That's impossible to get used to because you lose the "auto-wiring" in your brain that you need to drive efficiently without thinking about details like shifting gears.

    Of course, the majority of Porsche owners are not race car drivers, but Porsche should at least keep their heritage in mind when making decisions like that. Or like I said: let the customer choose.

    At least it's good to know they will be offering paddle shifting in the near future.

     

     


    --
    2007 997 C2, GT-Silver, 19" Classic, PASM

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    I understand your notion about "auto-wiring", if you are used to something different.

    For example I have great trouble driving a manual car with steering wheel on the left (our cars are like UK with right steering) because i cannot change gears efficiently with my right hand. All my life I've been using my left hand for this action.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    activa:

    2. Even in full manual mode, a kickdown still shifts down. Why on earth is this? When going through a long corner, it's sometimes better to keep the revs at 4 or 5,000 rpm and floor the throttle when you're about to exit. When done well, it keeps the car perfectly balanced and you can upshift at the exit. Problem is that "flooring" the throttle mid-corner actually downshifts, upsetting the balance of the car. And this is in full manual mode!

    3. The controls are all wrong. The steering wheel buttons and floor stick are completely unnatural. Everyone knows that pushing means "down", pulling means "up". It's just a result of the natural motion of your body when braking or accelerating. There is no excuse for reversing the controls like Porsche did. They should at least allow the customer to choose their configuration (or offer paddles behind the steering wheel)

    Just my 2 cents...

    -Philippe- 

    2) This is ridiculous, full manual mode should be 100% manual

    3) subject beaten to death already, ridiculous controls

    Looks like PDK is not for me but neither is manual anymore. I don't see a 911 on the horizon for a while.


    Re: Fifthgear Manual vs PDK

    SciFrog:
    2) This is ridiculous, full manual mode should be 100% manual

     

    That's what I thought. But it's not the case. Even the OPC sales guy was surprised by this.

    -Philippe-

     


    --
    2007 997 C2, GT-Silver, 19" Classic, PASM

     
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