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    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    nberry:

    Frank, I would wager 99.9% of Porsche owners get less than 75% of the car capability. Tweaking it here and there won't do much though most amateurs think otherwise. That said, your point about alignment is worthy of consideration.kiss

    How are you defining 75% of the car's ability?  By lap time?  I've watched Frank and the number is way higher than 75% is his case (and I would suggest for many board members, unless you're defining that in some way I haven't considered).

    Let me make it simple: I dare to make the claim that the majority of Porsche owners have never ever seriously tracked their cars. A club event here and there is no track racing. On public roads, even pro drivers cannot exceed (maybe) 80% of the car's capability and I guess with 80%, they would already be in a very illegal driving state. Smiley Smiley

    Does it really matter? Not really. I admire anyone who drives these fantastic cars and enjoys them. Let's take people like Gigi Papasavvas as an example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLnNmliJ54M . What is wrong with her enjoying a fine Porsche and making money with it as well? This isn't exactly the life I would wish for my daughter but I admire this young lady for her love for cars and modeling and yes, she loves cars.

    The only car owners I really don't like are those, who don't drive their cars at all and/or don't have the slightest clue about a few details of their cars. I met a Porsche owner a couple of years ago who didn't know any of the technical specs of his car. He just bought it because it was a lifetime dream (nothing wrong with it) and because he had the money. Everything else, he didn't care, he just wanted to drive a 911 (why he got himself a Carrera GTS and not a regular 911 Carrera is a mystery to me Smiley). 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Grant, lap time is one indicator.. For an example, it has been proven my RS can do the Ring in a little under seven minutes. I would be lucky to drive it in 8.30 minutes. Thus, I am no where the car capability.


    --

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    nberry:

    Grant, lap time is one indicator.. For an example, it has been proven my RS can do the Ring in a little under seven minutes. I would be lucky to drive it in 8.30 minutes. Thus, I am no where the car capability.

    Lap time can be an indicator indeed but then, some drivers know tracks very well (they have driven on them for years) and other drivers don't but they know other tracks very well, so... Smiley

    Is it really that important to quantify this? I think what counts most is to have fun. If someone wants to be ambitious, he should start a racing career. Otherwise he will end up in the same category with those knife between the teeth drivers we encounter sometimes at harmless driving events. We had one of those at a snow driving event recently near Lech/Zürs, he was clever enough to basically destroy the front of his car because he didn't listen to the instructor to reduce the speed at a certain point. He then started explaining how good of a driver he is and how many events and tracks he has seen over the past couple of years but the instructor had a simple question: "And you never learned to listen during these years?...". Nothing more to say.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    I get RC's and Nick's points, although I think they have been a bit vague at what they mean about the percentage of capability of the car being unused. 

    Anyway, I've had the pleasure of meeting Dan (Kobalt), Peter (Trakcar), Frank (Porker), Nick (Whoopsy), Dave Gordon, Eric (Gnil), Achim (Porsche-Jeck), Boris (Ducky), and others at the Nurburgring and elsewhere.  As a group, I'm very impressed with the level of skill of these guys as drivers and the enjoyment that they wring from their cars. 

    Not F1 grid skills, but I feel like they are receiving the vast majority of what a modern street going GT car can offer an amateur owner (in performance and fun).  To the extent that upgrading to a newer and faster GT is not wasted on them (since they never scratched the surface of what their current cars can do) which was the original point, I think...

    Nick - without meaning to be accusatory, it seems like maybe you are projecting your own experience of RS ownership onto others.  Just because you derive enjoyment from your RS apart from the racetrack and are very candid about your own limitations as a driver (who does not exploit more than 75% of his own car), that doesn't necessarily mean it is true of the whole group.

    You should join the group at the next Nordschleife outing and have a ride with some of these guys and give your assessment in percentage afterwards Smiley


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Grant:

    I get RC's and Nick's points, although I think they have been a bit vague at what they mean about the percentage of capability of the car being unused. 

    Of course we are vague because there are too many factors involved. Smiley

    Anyway, I've had the pleasure of meeting Dan (Kobalt), Peter (Trakcar), Frank (Porker), Nick (Whoopsy), Dave Gordon, Eric (Gnil), Achim (Porsche-Jeck), Boris (Ducky), and others at the Nurburgring and elsewhere.  As a group, I'm very impressed with the level of skill of these guys as drivers and the enjoyment that they wring from their cars. 

    There is a saying in Germany: "Übung macht den Meister" (skill comes with practice). The more people drive, the better drivers they become but you need to understand that this often isn't about the car's capabilities but about the driver's capabilities and since I have often the chance (and honor) to drive with some very skilled pros (mainly on public roads though), I can tell you that the difference between skilled amateurs and pros often isn't that big but it is big enough to keep the pros ahead and offer them an advantage in very specific driving situations. This is where not only practice comes in but also talent. Most successful pros are very talented, most skilled amateurs maybe not (difficult to tell). If an amateur spends every weekend on the track, maybe even weekdays, the skills improve, especially if the amateur is getting training. Those drivers who think they already learned everything are often not as good as they think. Smiley

    Not F1 grid skills, but I feel like they are receiving the vast majority of what a modern street going GT car can offer an amateur owner (in performance and fun).  To the extent that upgrading to a newer and faster GT is not wasted on them (since they never scratched the surface of what their current cars can do) which was the original point, I think...

    The car doesn't make a better driver but a better driver can take advantage of a better car.

    Nick - without meaning to be accusatory, it seems like maybe you are projecting your own experience of RS ownership onto others.  Just because you derive enjoyment from your RS apart from the racetrack and are very candid about your own limitations as a driver (who does not exploit more than 75% of his own car), that doesn't necessarily mean it is true of the whole group.

    Like I said before, it is very difficult to quantify skills and the capabilities of the car at the same time. There are also pros who prefer a certain type of car over the other. Many pros I know don't like AWD cars but I love them (OK, I'm not a pro but I clearly benefit from AWD, as I've proven many times Smiley during our weekend runs). On the other hand, I have to admire some pros how they handle RWD cars and it sometimes shocks me how little my traction advantage actually makes a difference.

    You should join the group at the next Nordschleife outing and have a ride with some of these guys and give your assessment in percentage afterwards Smiley

    The Nordschleife is one track. I know people who are very fast on the Nordschleife but are slow(er) on other tracks compared to other drivers. It depends where you spend most of the time and if you prefer fast tracks or slower tracks with more curves. 

    I know that the Nordschleife is the holy grail for many, especially outside Germany and Europe but there are many other fun tracks in Europe, the Nordschleife is "just" so special because it is basically a public road, it is longer than usual tracks and very high speeds can be achieved as well.

    Every amateur driver has his speciality and preference, so do pros actually (most of the time). It is very difficult to quantify skills and the capabilities of the car at the same time. Just saying...

    Also, why should I lie: The time I cared about stuff like that are long over. I had my share of fun on the track but starting at a certain age and with other priorities at hand, you think more about cost and risk than fun. I prefer paying 2k for a nice weekend rather than paying 2k for new tires and/or damaged rims (stone chips, whatever) after a track weekend. You get my point. Smiley 

    So I really understand why many drivers don't use the full potential of their cars but I really don't care as long as they actually drive them and have fun. My ambitious days are over and amateur drivers need to be careful not to mistake fun for something more serious. Track racing costs money, even serious money if you want to do it more professionally (see Whoopsy and Kobalt) and some people, like me (and maybe the other Nick) don't have the time and/or money to have a more professional approach to this topic.

    I actually admire people like Whoopsy, who, at a certain age (no offense), still have the ambition to try something new and get into semi-professional track racing. My ambition is totally gone, I just enjoy my weekend runs with some (very skilled) buddies and friends and believe it or not but sometimes I get the feeling that we are touching the 75% you mentioned quite often. Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Nberry, you always refer to trackday-drivers as people who chase the fastest lap time, but that's not really the case on most track days. Most of the drivers just want to drive cars to (their) limit, because it's fun. Most of them don't even register lap times. yes


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    spudgun:

    Nberry, you always refer to trackday-drivers as people who chase the fastest lap time, but that's not really the case on most track days. Most of the drivers just want to drive cars to (their) limit, because it's fun. Most of them don't even register lap times. yes

    Excellent point. The only reason I raised issue that the vast majority of track junking do not have the ability to get any where the limits of the car is because there was a reference to modifying their cars for the track. If the driver can’t get try to the limit of the car, what’s the point of modifying it?Smiley

    Grant, I never questioned the ability of the people you named. I believe each including yourself would acknowledge they are not close to the limit of their cars except possibly Frank in his old Mercedes.Smiley
    --

     

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Modifying the car is far from just wanting the car to be faster . 

    For example one of the most common mod , is changing the disks . This does not make anyone faster , not make the car brake better, but it makes the disks to last much longer and so not to have to worry about getting cracked disks and having to change them so often , 

    Different brake pads will  improve the braking , making it sharper and stronger . This is very appreciated on the track .

    making a specific alignment will improve the cars handling on the track , and probably deteriote it on the street ;-)  , driving on track and feeling that your car is sharper makes the whole driving experience better . 

    And at the end you might be a little bit faster, but , as said, that is very often not the primary goal .

    Another think about modifying is the is so enjoyable to do it , just for the sake of doing it . A real pleasure and lots to talk about around the car parks and dinner table  indecision


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Ah, yes now I remember that the original point of contention is modification rather than upgrading to a new car.  I have made just a few changes to my GT3 (RE10 brake pads, Endless brake fluid, Tarett Brake caliper mounting studs, and track alignment).  I did these to make the parts last longer primarily (brake pedal no longer gets soft and both pads and rotors last longer on track and alignment made to prevent such fast tire wear.  Caliper studs prevent stripped aluminum uprights with multiple pad/rotor changes). 

    For alignment, my shop put in a slight amount of toe out on front axle which is supposed to reduce mid-corner understeer and scrubbing of front tires, at the expense of some highway stability.  And the usual bit more of negative camber. It's not too bad on highway and waiting for this weekend to try on track.  Can return to street toe alignment for $100.  And if it makes the lap time slightly faster, all the better. Smiley


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    nberry:

    Frank, I would wager 99.9% of Porsche owners get less than 75% of the car capability. Tweaking it here and there won't do much though most amateurs think otherwise. That said, your point about alignment is worthy of consideration.kiss

    How are you defining 75% of the car's ability?  By lap time?  I've watched Frank and the number is way higher than 75% is his case (and I would suggest for many board members, unless you're defining that in some way I haven't considered).

    I remember when the first Cayenne’s came out and we were taking people out in the trucks around various tracks for Porsche Canada to show just how capable they were. A lot of potential customers were scared sh!tless because one) we were driving a lot faster then they would in their 911s (or other sportscars) and this was a large SUV and 2) we were pulling a Boxter behind us on a car trailer while doing it. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    spudgun:

    Nberry, you always refer to trackday-drivers as people who chase the fastest lap time, but that's not really the case on most track days. Most of the drivers just want to drive cars to (their) limit, because it's fun. Most of them don't even register lap times. yes

    Many drivers I know want to learn and improve themselves, even if lap times often aren't measured. Smiley

    I think the "problem" with lap times is the Nordschleife myth (= fast Nordschleife time, good driver, good car). I know people who drive on the Nordschleife almost every day and achieve sub 9 minutes times with really crappy cars. Does that mean they are very good drivers and/or their cars are amazing? I don't know. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    RC:
    I think the "problem" with lap times is the Nordschleife myth (= fast Nordschleife time, good driver, good car). I know people who drive on the Nordschleife almost every day and achieve sub 9 minutes times with really crappy cars. Does that mean they are very good drivers and/or their cars are amazing? I don't know. Smiley

    So, now we complain if someone uses too much percentage of his car’s capability also? Smiley

    I’m just teasing, but obviously it’s important to keep oneself safe.  I won’t bring my 73 911 to the Ring (I would be too scared).  A new GT car is about the safest way to drive the Ring - either stock or reasonably modified.
    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    Grant:
    RC:
    I think the "problem" with lap times is the Nordschleife myth (= fast Nordschleife time, good driver, good car). I know people who drive on the Nordschleife almost every day and achieve sub 9 minutes times with really crappy cars. Does that mean they are very good drivers and/or their cars are amazing? I don't know. Smiley

    So, now we complain if someone uses too much percentage of his car’s capability also? Smiley

    I’m just teasing, but obviously it’s important to keep oneself safe.  I won’t bring my 73 911 to the Ring (I would be too scared).  A new GT car is about the safest way to drive the Ring - either stock or reasonably modified.
    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    Actually, I would recommend a crappy car for first drives on the Nordschleife or something reasonable. My first car on the Nordschleife was a BMW 325i (over three decades ago...I realize how old I am Smiley) and I drove my first round pretty slow but still had a couple of issues (this was my first RWD car after several AWD Lancias and a Toyota Celica 4WD) which I remember pretty well. I actually have a few photos of this time, I need to find a scanner to scan all that old crap, so I can actually save it for my grandchildren. Smiley 

    My last drive on the Nordschleife was, I think, five years ago. It is too far away (500 km) from my home and I like I said before, I just don't want to take any costly risks (including new tires, damaged rims and/or paint, etc. or just some crazy tourist driver shooting you down by mistake) anymore. The Nordschleife is only fun if you really push it in my opinion and I just don't feel that "drive" anymore I had when I was younger. If I had more money and no family, maybe. Smiley

    I agree with you: I think someone driving a crappy car on the Nordschleife and doing fantastic times (for that type of car) certainly drives that particular car at probably 90-95% of it's capabilities. Which is quite admirable. I sometimes wonder what these drivers would be capable of in a "good" car but a friend told me that he watched a guy he knew transfer from a quite fast VW Polo GTi to a BMW M3 (V8 model) and at some point, he had two crashes with the M3 (pushed it too hard) and the times in the M3 were barely better than his times with the VW Polo (highly modified for track use though, also stripped of almost everything). So I guess sometimes some drivers profit from a "slower" car to achieve better times. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Trakcar Warranty Resolution 991.2 GT3 RS

    RC:. I sometimes wonder what these drivers would be capable of in a "good" car but a friend told me that he watched a guy he knew transfer from a quite fast VW Polo GTi to a BMW M3 (V8 model) and at some point, he had two crashes with the M3 (pushed it too hard) and the times in the M3 were barely better than his times with the VW Polo (highly modified for track use though, also stripped of almost everything). So I guess sometimes some drivers profit from a "slower" car to achieve better times. 

    with all due respect for fast guys at the NS, it is easier to be faster in less powerful and humble car than a rocket. the power is more easily manageable Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


     
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