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    Re: Tesla

    Why even bother with him?  In his part of the world Tesla is infallible regardless of information illustrating the converse. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Why even bother with him?  In his part of the world Tesla is infallible regardless of information illustrating the converse. 

    I appreciate  Topspeed giving me a rundown of the events. Notice he did it without an unfounded personal attack. 
    Bravo and thank you.

    I think if you re-read my post you will see that my reason for not watching the clip is because I am not really a fan of full self driving in its current form. Maybe you missed that. I did also point out that human drivers are also making mistakes and still the major cause of car fatalities at this point in time. I try very hard in my posts to be objective and pass on my own personal experience vs an array of news clips and videos.  Do you think I have more of an agenda than the media?  I am not trying to sell you anything.
     I doubt there is anyway I could structure a sentence which is a critical of Tesla and you would not read it as praise.  Try as I might. But I did create a post without resorting to a personal attack and free of mind reading or insulting tone Smiley

    Ps. Put the thesaurus down already - trying to sound super smart while simply lashing out illustrates the converse. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood, with all do respect, precisely because most of the drivers are idiots, giving them an “Autopilot” it’s like upgrading them from a pistol to a machine gun. They will have unrealistic expectations from the system, which in turn will cause IMO more deaths than when they focus to drive.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Tesla

    Pentium:

    Leawood, with all do respect, precisely because most of the drivers are idiots, giving them an “Autopilot” it’s like upgrading them from a pistol to a machine gun. They will have unrealistic expectations from the system, which in turn will cause IMO more deaths than when they focus to drive.

    Pentium, so eloquently put on the issues with Autopilot and the near vaporware FSD.  


    Re: Tesla

    For FSD Tesla uses a technology called "Neural Networks". There is nothing particular "neural" about it, instead it is a very clever way to solve an optimization problem. The downside (if you want to call it that way) of this approach is, that such a network has to be "trained" and for this one needs an enormous amount of training data covering most "situations" and enormous computing power. There are rumors that Tesla has one of the biggest super computers in the industry (called Dojo) to do exactly this.  
    I have no detailed information about Teslas technology but I guess, that it makes use of what is called "reinforcement learning".  With this approach a "situation" is fed into the network, the network calculates the outcome, and then it is told, if it was right or wrong. Based on this information the network may adapt slightly to calculate the correct answer.
    If you ever selected "traffic lights" in a blurry image as part of a login procedure you did exactly that and told the Google image recognition NN if it was right or wrong.
    Automakers have a lot of experience when it comes to QAing new cars and features. Typically they will use a fleet of a "few" cars and drive the hell out of them; we all know the images from Lapland and Nevada. I remember a particular situation where 15 cars where driven 24/7 for several month, but that was about it.

    Classic QA approaches to train a NN for FSD do not work, because they can not create enough training data. My bet is, that Tesla uses it's fleet and esp the drivers as part of their reinforcement training (if you hit the brake, the NN was wrong, if you let go, the NN was right).

    I don't think that this is the right thing to do, mainly because of the dangers it creates. I also have some doubts that a NN will ever be able to drive a car in a safe way and more importantly, that regulators will allow this technology for FSD, because it is inherently "unpredictable". One a more positive side, some of the smatest people in the industry are working in this field and they are very well aware of all the challenges


    Re: Tesla

    schmoell:

    For FSD Tesla uses a technology called "Neural Networks". There is nothing particular "neural" about it, instead it is a very clever way to solve an optimization problem. The downside (if you want to call it that way) of this approach is, that such a network has to be "trained" and for this one needs an enormous amount of training data covering most "situations" and enormous computing power. There are rumors that Tesla has one of the biggest super computers in the industry (called Dojo) to do exactly this.  
    I have no detailed information about Teslas technology but I guess, that it makes use of what is called "reinforcement learning".  With this approach a "situation" is fed into the network, the network calculates the outcome, and then it is told, if it was right or wrong. Based on this information the network may adapt slightly to calculate the correct answer.
    If you ever selected "traffic lights" in a blurry image as part of a login procedure you did exactly that and told the Google image recognition NN if it was right or wrong.
    Automakers have a lot of experience when it comes to QAing new cars and features. Typically they will use a fleet of a "few" cars and drive the hell out of them; we all know the images from Lapland and Nevada. I remember a particular situation where 15 cars where driven 24/7 for several month, but that was about it.

    Classic QA approaches to train a NN for FSD do not work, because they can not create enough training data. My bet is, that Tesla uses it's fleet and esp the drivers as part of their reinforcement training (if you hit the brake, the NN was wrong, if you let go, the NN was right).

    I don't think that this is the right thing to do, mainly because of the dangers it creates. I also have some doubts that a NN will ever be able to drive a car in a safe way and more importantly, that regulators will allow this technology for FSD, because it is inherently "unpredictable". One a more positive side, some of the smatest people in the industry are working in this field and they are very well aware of all the challenges

    Interestingly, that is similar to one of the ways the brain learns except it's called prediction error learning, and it involves our reward system rewarding unexpected good outcomes and discouraging bad unexpected outcomes.


    Re: Tesla

    I’m a software developer and I agree with everything said about FSD. Too many variables. That said, if properly paying attention the autopilot on a highway is excellent. I would much rather know people on the highway around me are using it. Giving an idiot driver Tesla autopilot for the highway will only improve them.  The analogy to a gun could not be more wrong. 
    I’m certain other automakers are soon rolling out similar systems. If that makes you all feel better. 
    And no, Cadillacs auto cruise or whatever is a joke. 


    Re: Tesla

    Pentium:

    Leawood, with all do respect, precisely because most of the drivers are idiots, giving them an “Autopilot” it’s like upgrading them from a pistol to a machine gun. They will have unrealistic expectations from the system, which in turn will cause IMO more deaths than when they focus to drive.

    Now we're talking... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    I’m a software developer and I agree with everything said about FSD. Too many variables. That said, if properly paying attention the autopilot on a highway is excellent. I would much rather know people on the highway around me are using it. Giving an idiot driver Tesla autopilot for the highway will only improve them.  The analogy to a gun could not be more wrong. 
    I’m certain other automakers are soon rolling out similar systems. If that makes you all feel better. 
    And no, Cadillacs auto cruise or whatever is a joke. 

    I would agree it could improve the idiot's driving if the idiot was using the Autopilot correctly and within its limitations like you do when you use it, but the issue here is that idiots are precisely the most likely to misuse the system by stop paying attention to the road with it engaged, using it in situations where the system is does not work well, using it incorrectly, etc, and thetefore potentially making a problem even worse by giving idiots the opportunity to be more idiotic and dangerous.


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    I’m a software developer and I agree with everything said about FSD. Too many variables. That said, if properly paying attention the autopilot on a highway is excellent. I would much rather know people on the highway around me are using it. Giving an idiot driver Tesla autopilot for the highway will only improve them.  The analogy to a gun could not be more wrong. 
    I’m certain other automakers are soon rolling out similar systems. If that makes you all feel better. 
    And no, Cadillacs auto cruise or whatever is a joke. 

    You don't seem to (want to) understand: Tesla drivers are always bragging about how good their autopilot system is, there are tons of videos of Tesla drivers who actually are in the car in the driver's seat but...don't drive.

    How many of similar videos have you seen from drivers of other brands?

    Yes, other automakers are rolling out similar systems...into beta testing with factory test drivers and not customers.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    schmoell:

    For FSD Tesla uses a technology called "Neural Networks". There is nothing particular "neural" about it, instead it is a very clever way to solve an optimization problem. The downside (if you want to call it that way) of this approach is, that such a network has to be "trained" and for this one needs an enormous amount of training data covering most "situations" and enormous computing power. There are rumors that Tesla has one of the biggest super computers in the industry (called Dojo) to do exactly this.  
    I have no detailed information about Teslas technology but I guess, that it makes use of what is called "reinforcement learning".  With this approach a "situation" is fed into the network, the network calculates the outcome, and then it is told, if it was right or wrong. Based on this information the network may adapt slightly to calculate the correct answer.
    If you ever selected "traffic lights" in a blurry image as part of a login procedure you did exactly that and told the Google image recognition NN if it was right or wrong.
    Automakers have a lot of experience when it comes to QAing new cars and features. Typically they will use a fleet of a "few" cars and drive the hell out of them; we all know the images from Lapland and Nevada. I remember a particular situation where 15 cars where driven 24/7 for several month, but that was about it.

    Classic QA approaches to train a NN for FSD do not work, because they can not create enough training data. My bet is, that Tesla uses it's fleet and esp the drivers as part of their reinforcement training (if you hit the brake, the NN was wrong, if you let go, the NN was right).

    I don't think that this is the right thing to do, mainly because of the dangers it creates. I also have some doubts that a NN will ever be able to drive a car in a safe way and more importantly, that regulators will allow this technology for FSD, because it is inherently "unpredictable". One a more positive side, some of the smatest people in the industry are working in this field and they are very well aware of all the challenges

     

    The neural network name is quite misleading, it is just a glorified database for the system to look up the entries. Comparing images to the database records and then spit out the decision, nothing more.

    it doesn't do what a human brain does, that is, predicting the most probable outcome of a situation. Human brains also store entries, i.e. experience, but we don't store everything, we distilled all those entries into basics and then store that instead.  It will be decades before computers can catch up to humans on decisions making in a split second.

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Autopilot is a safety feature. So are all the active assists. Goes for all cars. 
    The car with less of these is the machine gun not the other way around. To argue otherwise is not just silly it is statistically invalid since the dawn of automobiles and safety aids. 
    To assume Tesla drivers - who are strangely NOT leading accident stats or speeding ticket stats - are somehow more risky than the average driver is not correct. Fun to imagine but just not a thing. If this were the case Tesla owners would be notorious for accidents or at least drag racing tickets. Simply put they are not less safe.  
    The notion autopilot makes driving on highways less safe is due to people here commenting without owning a Tesla and using it extensively. 
    Do not conflate FSD with autopilot. FSD is simply not ready yet but getting there. If Porsche was leading the way with FSD this thread would be on its head. Be honest. 


    Re: Tesla

    And if Porsche is doing the automated driving thing I will still diss them, makes absolutely no difference who is behind such thing. 

    It's a flawed incomplete solution that nobody wants looking for a problem. 

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    And if Porsche is doing the automated driving thing I will still diss them, makes absolutely no difference who is behind such thing. 

    It's a flawed incomplete solution that nobody wants looking for a problem. 

     

    This will be the best thread 10 years from now. Bravo - we may need another data loss by then. 
    To say no one wants self driving is up there with no one is looking to be a billionaire.  Of course it is a goal and something people would want. 
    If you would like to claim that some don’t want it or will never use it that is correct. The nobody part is over the top. 
    While I believe you would not be happy with Porsche either I would point out some here are a bit more bias toward Porsche than toward Tesla. Me included, else I would have sold my turbo already.  You have to be a much bigger fanboy  to accept that price / performance equation. 


    Re: Tesla

    Saw my first Tesla Model S Plaid yesterday on the highway. It looked very very nicekiss


    Re: Tesla

    rhino:

    Saw my first Tesla Model S Plaid yesterday on the highway. It looked very very nicekiss

    Interesting. I’m not certain I could tell just by looking. Are you certain it was a plaid?  I did not think any had been delivered yet. 


    Re: Tesla

    I noticed the increased track width and assumed it was the Plaid. Aside from the blacked out TESLA on the trunk, it had no model designation.  It also had the horizontal screen in the center stack. The car looked really slick.


    Re: Tesla

    rhino:

    I noticed the increased track width and assumed it was the Plaid. Aside from the blacked out TESLA on the trunk, it had no model designation.  It also had the horizontal screen in the center stack. The car looked really slick.

    It may have been just the new model S. Seems the tri motor cars will not be delivered until June.  The new S does have the blacked out trim and horizontal screen. Body shapes are the same as the plaid I think until the plaid plus. 


    Re: Tesla

    kiss


    Re: Tesla

    A solution looking for a problem: Tesla’s virtual predictive gear change on the facelifted Model S/X. https://mobile.twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1374585378988953601


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    A solution looking for a problem: Tesla’s virtual predictive gear change on the facelifted Model S/X. https://mobile.twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1374585378988953601

    Most likely a software update which they will apply to all cars including my model 3.  Consider that fact. 
    One persons lack of imagination is thankfully not a hinderance to some.  At one point the guys designing the pyramids likely felt that the wheel was a solution looking for a problem. Lol. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    A solution looking for a problem: Tesla’s virtual predictive gear change on the facelifted Model S/X. https://mobile.twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1374585378988953601

    Most likely a software update which they will apply to all cars including my model 3.  Consider that fact. 
    One persons lack of imagination is thankfully not a hinderance to some.  At one point the guys designing the pyramids likely felt that the wheel was a solution looking for a problem. Lol. 

    Even the Tesla lovefest known as Electrek.com has many negative comments about the new system. https://electrek.co/2021/03/24/tesla-crazy-new-way-shift-gear-drive-reverse-model-s/
     

    There was a reason why the federal government wrote specific regulations establishing the PRNDL quadrant for automatic transmissions over fifty years ago. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    A solution looking for a problem: Tesla’s virtual predictive gear change on the facelifted Model S/X. https://mobile.twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1374585378988953601

    Most likely a software update which they will apply to all cars including my model 3.  Consider that fact. 
    One persons lack of imagination is thankfully not a hinderance to some.  At one point the guys designing the pyramids likely felt that the wheel was a solution looking for a problem. Lol. 

    Even the Tesla lovefest known as Electrek.com has many negative comments about the new system. https://electrek.co/2021/03/24/tesla-crazy-new-way-shift-gear-drive-reverse-model-s/
     

    There was a reason why the federal government wrote specific regulations establishing the PRNDL quadrant for automatic transmissions over fifty years ago. 

    I must admit it seems superfluous but I will wait and reserve judgement. What a concept. 
    What is noteworthy is that once again all the cars in the fleet get the latest updates and features without having to buy a new one. What a huge favor for existing owners. See how similar the Model S will look.  While boring it is nice that owners are looked after.  All other companies put new features into new models only as a way to get you to move up at the  This is impossible for the ice dinosaurs to compete with. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    A solution looking for a problem: Tesla’s virtual predictive gear change on the facelifted Model S/X. https://mobile.twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1374585378988953601

    Most likely a software update which they will apply to all cars including my model 3.  Consider that fact. 
    One persons lack of imagination is thankfully not a hinderance to some.  At one point the guys designing the pyramids likely felt that the wheel was a solution looking for a problem. Lol. 

    Even the Tesla lovefest known as Electrek.com has many negative comments about the new system. https://electrek.co/2021/03/24/tesla-crazy-new-way-shift-gear-drive-reverse-model-s/
     

    There was a reason why the federal government wrote specific regulations establishing the PRNDL quadrant for automatic transmissions over fifty years ago. 

    I must admit it seems superfluous but I will wait and reserve judgement. What a concept. 
    What is noteworthy is that once again all the cars in the fleet get the latest updates and features without having to buy a new one. What a huge favor for existing owners. See how similar the Model S will look.  While boring it is nice that owners are looked after.  All other companies put new features into new models only as a way to get you to move up at the  This is impossible for the ice dinosaurs to compete with. 

     

    https://jalopnik.com/porsches-taycan-software-update-is-a-generous-one-and-m-1846535764/amp


    Re: Tesla

    I don’t like Teslas, but we all have to thank Tesla to make OTHA updates a common thing. Even my boring BMW 8 now gets his regular updates with new features without the need to visit the dealer.


    Re: Tesla

    Itsme:

    I don’t like Teslas, but we all have to thank Tesla to make OTHA updates a common thing. Even my boring BMW 8 now gets his regular updates with new features without the need to visit the dealer.

    Agreed. German car industry sometimes needs a kick in the butt to move. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

     


    Re: Tesla

    Volkswagen poised to change its name to 'Voltswagen' as it invests in electric vehicles

    Volkswagen’s American division appears poised to change its name to "Voltswagen," switching the "k" to a "t" in a nod toward the automaker’s investment in electric vehicles.

    The German automaker's announcement on the change appeared briefly on its media site Monday before it was removed, having apparently been released before it was ready for an official rollout.

    Volkswagen spokesperson Brendan Bradley declined to comment Monday.

    But VW was not hacked, the announcement is not a joke, it's not a marketing ploy and the plan is for the change to be made permanent, said a person familiar with the company’s plans on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.

    The news release, which was dated April 29 when it was accidentally posted, was published March 29 before it was ready to be distributed, the person said. A USA TODAY reporter noticed the announcement on VW's website and saved it before it was removed.

    In the errantly published news release, the automaker said that “more than a name change, ‘Voltswagen’ is a public declaration of the company’s future-forward investment in e-mobility.”

    “The new name and branding symbolize the highly-charged forward momentum Voltswagen has put in motion, pursuing a goal of moving all people point-to-point with EVs,” the automaker said in the release.

    According to the announcement, electric models would get an exterior badge with the name “Voltswagen,” while gas-powered vehicles will have the standard “VW” badge. It was not immediately clear Monday whether any details of the plan are still subject to change.

    The move would signal a significant pivot for the world’s second-largest automaker, whose U.S. division dates to 1955. It would also come after several competitors, including General Motors and Volvo, recently announced plans to eventually phase out gas vehicles.

    “We might be changing out our K for a T, but what we aren't changing is this brand’s commitment to making best-in-class vehicles for drivers and people everywhere,” VW of America CEO Scott Keogh said in the news release.

    The change would also further distance VW from the diesel emissions scandalthat sullied its reputation, harmed the environment, hurt public health and led to penalties of more than $30 billion as well as criminal charges.

    The announcement would also coincide with the arrival of the brand-new Volkswagen ID.4, the automaker’s first long-range electric SUV sold in the U.S. It’s part of a new lineup of electric cars under the ID sub-brand, including the forthcoming revival of the VW microbus.

    The company plans to launch more than 70 electric vehicles worldwide by 2029 and sell 1 million by 2025. VW and its related brands, including Audi and Porsche, sold more than 9 million vehicles of all kinds globally in 2020, making it a close second to Toyota, though it previously held the No. 1 title for several years.

    While VW is known to many Americans as the maker of small vehicles like the Beetle car and the Passat sedan, the brand has pivoted in recent years toward larger models, investing heavily in SUVs like the midsize Tiguan and the three-row Atlas.

    You can follow USA TODAY reporter Nathan Bomey on Twitter @NathanBomey and subscribe to our free Daily Money newsletter here for personal finance tips and business news every Monday through Friday morning.


    Re: Tesla

    Maybe this was an April Fools' Day joke leaking early? Smiley Smiley Smiley

    Voltswagen...seriously? Are they nuts? Smiley

    On the other hand, VW Group did exactly what I expected them for a very long time to do but they delayed it for whatever reason, maybe because of the pandemic or maybe because of Trump, I don't know.

    Fact is now: VW Group is moving fast with EVs and this could put huge pressure on Tesla and by huge I mean huuuggggeee. They invest billions in EVs right now and will try to cover every possible angle, including the performance one.

    Will be interesting to see but I have to admit that so far, the Americans (not only Tesla) have the more attractive EV products (for my taste).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    More articles supporting this allegation.  https://www.motor1.com/news/497715/voltswagen-official-name-announcement-release/. New tag line or sub brand?


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    More articles supporting this allegation.  https://www.motor1.com/news/497715/voltswagen-official-name-announcement-release/. New tag line or sub brand?

    I love it. If your gonna be a bear be a grizzly.  
    out of the box thinking outside the marketing department is hopefully next. 


     
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