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    Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Looks good (including Manual Gearbox):

    http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892746

     


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Finally a carbon driveshaft! It would be nice on the Ms if they used a M specific insturument cluster with the tach in the center.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I don't know...without AWD and the increased torque (30%), this car won't be fun...unless you want to win a drifting competition.  Can't wait to drive one though.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I think it will be the best M car so far.

    Just... Manual with 6 speed vs. 7 speed DKG = pretty different overall gearbox ratios and overall setup of the car.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I am not impressed by the speces, lets wait for the real life weight.

    Alpina has shown for years how to do it right (biturbo) and now BMW really has to show that they developed a superior package over the last three years!  Alpina has 410 hp and 600 nm, pretty impressive stuff, particularly if u notice how much they improved the engine compared to the b3 S (now with 500 nm from 2000 rpm !).

    Additionally the 7 speed Dkg still has to prove it'merits.  I know it is fast and everyting but 7 gears means 6 gears for performance and one for fuel saving, so in reality there will not be an advantage performancewise over a 6 gear dkg. Alpina on the other side adopts the zf 8 gear which, while probably a bit slower and certainly heavier, allows for 7 performance gears.... 

    So the new M3/4 really has to be very well executed in order to shine next to its more touristy Alpina rival...


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Actually i was wrong, the new Alpina B3 Biturbo delivers 550 Nm from 2000rpm onwards. :-) 

    Could become my next daily driver in Touring and 4wd format  if the Macan Turbo does not live up to expectations... 


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    http://www.alpina.li/alpina/ww/modelle/b3-biturbo/antrieb.html?cid=19584&did=5657&sechash=386f1e67

    Performance diagram of B3 new vs b3 s an interesting reference for the M3/4 engines....


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    AFAIK 7 speed DKG on new M3/M4 will use 7th gear as a power gear. Overall ratios will be much shorter then on 6 speed manual.

    Basically, you will get two different cars-depending which gearbox you choose.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    KresoF1:

    AFAIK 7 speed DKG on new M3/M4 will use 7th gear as a power gear. Overall ratios will be much shorter then on 6 speed manual.

    Basically, you will get two different cars-depending which gearbox you choose.

    I hope you are right with the 7 power gears in the interest of all M4 fans...  still astonishing that they managed to reduce the consumption that much without a long final gear... we'll know soon! 

     


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Further interesting data to compare:

    DIN weight for bmw m3 limousine dkg: 1680 kg

    DIN  weight for Alpina B3 biturbo switschtronic: 1610 kg

    So let's see where the new Carbon reinforced M3 with Dkg will land...

     


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    turbolite:

    Actually i was wrong, the new Alpina B3 Biturbo delivers 550 Nm from 2000rpm onwards. :-) 

    Just notice that the BMW specs say "Far Beyond 500 NM", so we've yet to see the final number there.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Grant:
    turbolite:

    Actually i was wrong, the new Alpina B3 Biturbo delivers 550 Nm from 2000rpm onwards. :-) 

    Just notice that the BMW specs say "Far Beyond 500 NM", so we've yet to see the final number there.

    Sure, I saw that. It has to be more than 500 Nm with a biturbo engine. But I still wonder if they managed to get more out of it than the Alpina guys 600Nm). My guess is that torque will be in the same ballpark as the horsepower is.  What I am very curious about is how much (and how easily) that new engine revs... Yet again because they just use two turbo instead of the envisioned three I can't see how there should be a huge difference. 

     


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I don't know - in the past the 911 was obviously the better choice if you wanted a focussed sports car with a fair dose of everyday usability.  Conversely I always saw the with the BMW being a more mainstream GT but with a fair dose of sporting intent.  The 991 Carreras strike me as more biased to the GT role so perhaps they do compete  


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley

    Easy to answerSmiley You buy the best car for the mission. If your mission is to have a sports car, a 991 std or S has some issues  regardless of its price.

    The 991 looks like a sports car but now has too much GT in its heart.

    The new M4 looks like a 2 dr sedan but is all sports car in its heart

    M4 is more powerful than a 991 even if the 991 has a "power kit'. The M4 has a new lower center of gravity, lower roll center and polar inertia than any previous M3s and it weighs less than the last one. With its new mountain of torque (compared to a 991s death valley) it will have staggering performance.

     


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    One thing that is clear from looking at the dyno sheet is that this is easily a 500HP+ motor, if the turbochargers were able to keep maximum boost til redline (or even close).  The torque curve is falling away quickly at a constant slope at higher revs which indicates to me falling boost levels.  They have carefully managed the torque (boost) curve to create a plateau of HP til ~7,500 rpm.

    The problem is that the goal should be to have a flat torque curve, not a flat HP curve.  Because of the way that HP is calculated, HP rises with rpm (even when the torque curve is flat) - here they have tailored the torque curve to lose boost gradually at high revs to make a falling torque curve at the correct rate to produce a flat HP curve - this will make the engine feel anemic (running out of breath) at high revs compared to the last V-8 M3.

    This issue is either caused by using turbochargers that are too small for max HP (but giving less lag) or by purposeful electronic control of the wastegate, or a combination of both.  i.e. a GTS model with 525 hp could be made by BMW very easily (just by increasing the size of the turbos if necessary and allowing full boost to over 7k).

    If it is just software, a re-tune alone could add LOTS of peak power.

    M3-M4_Engine_3_Technical_Data.jpg


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley


    Well, it's not that absurd, is it? I can remember the times of the E30, E36 and E46, when those M3 were all aimed against the particular 911. And there were plenty of comparisons in the magazines with often head-to-head results, some of them not for the benefit of the Porsche. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:
    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley

    Easy to answerSmiley You buy the best car for the mission. If your mission is to have a sports car, a 991 std or S has some issues  regardless of its price.

    The 991 looks like a sports car but now has too much GT in its heart.

    The new M4 looks like a 2 dr sedan but is all sports car in its heart

    M4 is more powerful than a 991 even if the 991 has a "power kit'. The M4 has a new lower center of gravity, lower roll center and polar inertia than any previous M3s and it weighs less than the last one. With its new mountain of torque (compared to a 991s death valley) it will have staggering performance.

     

    Sorry, but calling an M4 more sportscar than a 911 is absolutely rediculous. Don't get me wrong... I really like that car and i may even be interested in one, but it doesn't even come close to a 991 S. It's a completely different car. Regardless of its power-advantage, The m4 will not be quicker than a 991 S round a track. Power is one thing, getting it onthe road is a different thing. Just watch the MT comparison between the F12, C7 and C4S. The F12 has way more power and is less than a second faster round Laguna Seca than the C7 and C4S. The 991's chassis is just brilliant...

    The M4 will be a fantastic car and hopefully a true M-car, but it will never be a 911, although i can understand people cross-shopping those cars, depending on their needs. The M4 is a GT with sportscar capacities. A 991 is a sportscar with GT capacities. Both are very capable, high quality cars that are fun to drive.


    --

    I'm just another female petrolhead :)

     


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Suzy, I said the 991 has too much GT car in its heart now and that the M has more sports car than sedan in its heart. The 991 is a actual sports car that needs more motor.

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!

    If the rumors are true, the 991S will soon receive a 3.0L Twin Turbo motor that should go a long way towards solving the torque deficit.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:

    Suzy, I said the 991 has too much GT car in its heart now and that the M has more sports car than sedan in its heart. The 991 is a actual sports car that needs more motor.

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!

    I agree that the 991 S could use more torque, especially at the low end of the scale, but on the other hand... It gives the car also its character. With a manual it can be really annoying, i can tell that from experience (although mine is a Boxster S). But... Manuals are dinosaur technology and gone in 10 years. With a PDK the problem is less significant IMO. But even then... A little more torque would be welcome indeed. 

    Regarding the Burmester... the M4's Harman Kardon system isn't gonna help much either! but it's so damn nice to have good music in your car when you are NOT driving the hell out of it and you're tired of listening to the exhaust note. ;)

    That's the nice thing about the 991... It transforms from a reasonable comfy, luxurious sports GT into a true sportscar with only a push of a button. I really hope the M4 gets the same quality, but i doubt it to be honest. In the end, comparing an M4 with a 991 C2S is like comparing apples and oranges. Just two completely different cars... Would like to have them both though Smiley

     


    --

    I'm just another female petrolhead :)

     


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:
    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley

    Easy to answerSmiley You buy the best car for the mission. If your mission is to have a sports car, a 991 std or S has some issues  regardless of its price.

    The 991 looks like a sports car but now has too much GT in its heart.

    The new M4 looks like a 2 dr sedan but is all sports car in its heart

    M4 is more powerful than a 991 even if the 991 has a "power kit'. The M4 has a new lower center of gravity, lower roll center and polar inertia than any previous M3s and it weighs less than the last one. With its new mountain of torque (compared to a 991s death valley) it will have staggering performance.

     

    But driving these BMWs is a completely different category. They just feel like a sporty limousine. If you needed the space - Ok. If the price would be the argument - Ok. But in terms of performance the M3/M4 is in a different (lower) category Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    JimFlat6:

    Suzy, I said the 991 has too much GT car in its heart now and that the M has more sports car than sedan in its heart. The 991 is a actual sports car that needs more motor.

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!

    Have you ever driven an M3, BTW? Your arguments sound like you never did. I hate the M3 (of course, I never drove the new M3/M4). We had one for 3 years. This car was really a poor compromise. Now compare this with the driving pleasure in a 991/991s - two different worlds, really. You cannot even compare the feel behind the wheel of these cars Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Rossi:
    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley


    Well, it's not that absurd, is it? I can remember the times of the E30, E36 and E46, when those M3 were all aimed against the particular 911. And there were plenty of comparisons in the magazines with often head-to-head results, some of them not for the benefit of the Porsche. Smiley

    This was 25 years ago Smiley If you look at what BMW produces today, well... Cheap but far below the 100% level Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    The 991 grips and handles like a sports car but the lack of involvment is pure GT.  I find it a a curious set of compromises.  And I've never been a fan of any but the original M3 because I prefer small light nimble cars. 


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    MKSGR:
    Rossi:
    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    So some people will continuing buying 991s for kindergarten color options for seat belts, synthetic steering feel and way less torque. People wanting power will buy the new torque rich M that now also comes with the active differential. Obvious choice is BMW.

    Comparing a 991 with a M3/M4 SmileySmileySmiley

    The BMW is cheaper - but that's it. I don't see how these cars could be compared from the view of a buyer who could afford either Smiley


    Well, it's not that absurd, is it? I can remember the times of the E30, E36 and E46, when those M3 were all aimed against the particular 911. And there were plenty of comparisons in the magazines with often head-to-head results, some of them not for the benefit of the Porsche. Smiley

    This was 25 years ago Smiley If you look at what BMW produces today, well... Cheap but far below the 100% level Smiley


    Absolutely and I'm well aware of the fact that it's a long time ago. Smiley

    I just thought perhaps BMW might return to their old days of glory with the new M3/4. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    GR:

    The 991 grips and handles like a sports car but the lack of involvment is pure GT.  I find it a a curious set of compromises.  And I've never been a fan of any but the original M3 because I prefer small light nimble cars. 

    How do you define "lack of involvement"?

    Do you mean it is not hard work to drive fast, or something else?

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    Suzy, I said the 991 has too much GT car in its heart now and that the M has more sports car than sedan in its heart. The 991 is a actual sports car that needs more motor.

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!

    Have you ever driven an M3, BTW? Your arguments sound like you never did. I hate the M3 (of course, I never drove the new M3/M4). We had one for 3 years. This car was really a poor compromise. Now compare this with the driving pleasure in a 991/991s - two different worlds, really. You cannot even compare the feel behind the wheel of these cars Smiley

    Markus, I fully agree with you. We owned a M3 Cab with DKG and it never felt like a sports car. Also had the Coupe as a loaner a couple of times, I liked the C63 AMG Coupe PP I had much more.

    The M3 has a reputation in the sports car world but with the introduction of the V8, the car got heavier and less sports car like in my opinion. Hopefully the new M4 will be different but looking at the M5 for example, I doubt it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    reginos:

    How do you define "lack of involvement"?

    Do you mean it is not hard work to drive fast, or something else?

    Principally the steering which is totally numb on all the 981/991 I have driven.  The turn and dry grip are amazing but in all my test drives, there is little to no sense of the loads building or falling away so its hard to judge how much grip you actually have.  Occasionally the steering gives you something but its very artificial. 

    In patchy damp conditions the steering completely masks whether its dry and grippy or a slippery damp surface so there is no sense of transition and how hard you can push.  I actually found it alarming because the car just starts sliding with no warning. 

    It might well be better on smooth tarmac but we don't  have any of that in the UK.


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


     
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