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    Re: Tesla

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    TesIa is a car manufacturer with an economic problem... C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    6B2CBD7C-562D-4085-8388-1CF4955A5ECF.jpeg

    ...demand for TesIa is less than existing supply (e.g. 2022 Q4 deliveries of 405k vs Q4 production of 439k) while competition is increasing and the economy is heading into a recession! Smiley

     

    I have been reporting Teslas sitting on the lot waiting to be bought, a sign of slowing demand and depleting pre-orders, but someone doesn't want to believe that and wanted to believe Elon and Tesla forums instead. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    I believe Tesla's overall EV market share has dropped below 70% now, they were literally 90% not a couple years ago. 

    The major price cut is the Model Y, a model that has serious competition and the competition are better cars, namely the Hyundai Ioniq 5 KIA EV6 and the Ford Mustang Mach E, all of which there are still over a year of backlogged orders. I actually checked yesterday, I was asking a Hyundai dealer can I place and order for a Ioniq 5, a car I still wanted to own, the answer was that the order book hasn't been re-opened yet. And they still don't know when Hyundai will open it. 

    In contrast, I drove by the Tesla lot on the way to the Hyundai dealer, I could walk in there and have a choice of at least 10 Model Y in various colours and trims, and walk out with a car. With today's price cut, I suspect perhaps quite a few will be gone by Monday. 


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    the-missile:

    PAG went very cheap with 992 too...not to defend Tesla but others are doing the same, charge more give less...

     

    Haha not even news. Porsche had always done things that way, at least one has the option to add better interior. 

    Porsche interior is lovely once someone spend the money to fully deck it out. 

    One reason I am partial to turbo S trim, less boxes for me to check. Smiley

    the cost to tick all the boxes is still insane...

    I did it on my 991.2 GT3 and could have bought a nice daily driver, most of it was CXX Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014

    Cayenne Coupe Turbo 2020


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:

    PAG went very cheap with 992 too...not to defend Tesla but others are doing the same, charge more give less...

    The interior finish on my touring feels at least to me a step forward from my three year old Cayenne turbo. Take the toggle switches. Take the volume control. And no haptic switches thankfully..::


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:
    Whoopsy:
    the-missile:

    PAG went very cheap with 992 too...not to defend Tesla but others are doing the same, charge more give less...

     

    Haha not even news. Porsche had always done things that way, at least one has the option to add better interior. 

    Porsche interior is lovely once someone spend the money to fully deck it out. 

    One reason I am partial to turbo S trim, less boxes for me to check. Smiley

    the cost to tick all the boxes is still insane...

    I did it on my 991.2 GT3 and could have bought a nice daily driver, most of it was CXX Smiley

    Haha tell me about it........Smiley

    My old Cayenne turbo S and my Panamera turbo S are both highest priced after options in CanadaSmileySmileySmiley


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    Re: Tesla

    996FourEss:
    the-missile:

    PAG went very cheap with 992 too...not to defend Tesla but others are doing the same, charge more give less...

    The interior finish on my touring feels at least to me a step forward from my three year old Cayenne turbo. Take the toggle switches. Take the volume control. And no haptic switches thankfully..::

    the previous gen philosophy with 1x button = 1x function was not bad if you ticked all the boxes. It was looking like a space ship. with the touch console now it is just a black piano with some shadow style which looks so so if you don't  tick all boxes too + finger print marks Smiley

    I was more into interior finish with plastics against leather, and the quality of of previous parts compared to now.


    --

     

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

     

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014

    Cayenne Coupe Turbo 2020


    Re: Tesla

    Back to more Tesla news!

    https://insideevs.com/news/630075/mercedes-first-to-offer-level-3-self-driving-in-the-us/

    Tesla lost the crown to being leader of automated driving to Mercedes.

    Mercedes has the first to market level 3 system, actual system, not some dysfunctional beta. 

    According to autonomous driving experts, Tesla's FSD has no hope of getting certified as level 3 at all as the cars are missing major hardware. 

    https://www.autoweek.com/news/technology/a41091584/tesla-full-self-driving-price-hike-level/


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    Re: Tesla

    "I don't think we have to worry about autonomous cars because it's a sort of a narrow form of AI. It's not something I think is very difficult. To do autonomous driving that is to a degree much safer than a person, is much easier than people think." "...I almost view it like a solved problem."

    - Elon Musk dixit (self-proclaimed self-taught engineer) 2015.


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    "I don't think we have to worry about autonomous cars because it's a sort of a narrow form of AI. It's not something I think is very difficult. To do autonomous driving that is to a degree much safer than a person, is much easier than people think." "...I almost view it like a solved problem."

    - Elon Musk dixit (self-proclaimed self-taught engineer) 2015.

    True if your benchmark is a drunk chimpanzee. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:
    Carlos from Spain:

    "I don't think we have to worry about autonomous cars because it's a sort of a narrow form of AI. It's not something I think is very difficult. To do autonomous driving that is to a degree much safer than a person, is much easier than people think." "...I almost view it like a solved problem."

    - Elon Musk dixit (self-proclaimed self-taught engineer) 2015.

    True if your benchmark is a drunk chimpanzee. 

    The next year (2016) he said this, to sell vaporware FSD packages for 5k to gullible customers/victims... 

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/686279251293777920?s=20&t=I7_3gp_g_nUJTKT7PsB4Jw


    Re: Tesla

    Doug DeMuro: “Here’s Why TesIa Car Values Have Dropped So Fast”  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    ...observations from a well known industry professional that sells cars online every week...  BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif

    Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT-9_As6qq4

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Add Tesla purchasers in the U.S. have the longest loan lengths of any automaker https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-buyers-take-out-the-longest-auto-loans-11636401236 and this quickly makes AC/DC’s “Highway to Hell” a very appropriate theme song for the company.  


    Re: Tesla

    Maybe a fun fact people don't know: A customer of mine just ordered a Tesla S Plaid here in Germany. Delivery time around March. Car is worth over 150k EUR. Customer leases the car for his business.

    When he ordered the car and asked what kind of financial proof he needs, Tesla told him...nothing. They don't seem to check if he is credit worthy or not. He was quite surprised, so he asked them how they can trust people and the sales guy told him that if people don't pay their lease payments, they disable the car, problem solved.  Unbelievable.

    It seems this is common practice of Tesla here in Germany. Does someone know if Tesla does the same in other countries too? Usually, when you want to lease a car, the dealer asks you for financial proof (proof of income, etc.).

    Pretty interesting concept...to disable the car when the customer doesn't pay his lease rate anymore. indecision


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    A pretty good way indecision

     Running after people who do not pay is a huge hassle.  Finding your car one morning blocked because you did not pay your lease is the best way to make you go and find any solution to cover your debt ASAP kiss


    Re: Tesla

    Gnil:

    A pretty good way indecision

     Running after people who do not pay is a huge hassle.  Finding your car one morning blocked because you did not pay your lease is the best way to make you go and find any solution to cover your debt ASAP kiss

    Have you ever heard of a stolen Tesla? They are basically instant bait cars. 


    Re: Tesla

    The slow sales in q4 are obviously due to the huge coming tax rebate. Not rocket science. The US rebates were structured to bypass Tesla due to exceeding price limits. They fixed that. The drop is a huge FU to the Biden admin and competitors have seen their worst nightmare just begin.  Will be interesting to watch. 
    I would love to watch a comparison between the Mercedes level 3 system and Tesla FSD beta 


    Re: Tesla

    RC:

    Maybe a fun fact people don't know: A customer of mine just ordered a Tesla S Plaid here in Germany. Delivery time around March. Car is worth over 150k EUR. Customer leases the car for his business.

    When he ordered the car and asked what kind of financial proof he needs, Tesla told him...nothing. They don't seem to check if he is credit worthy or not. He was quite surprised, so he asked them how they can trust people and the sales guy told him that if people don't pay their lease payments, they disable the car, problem solved.  Unbelievable.

    It seems this is common practice of Tesla here in Germany. Does someone know if Tesla does the same in other countries too? Usually, when you want to lease a car, the dealer asks you for financial proof (proof of income, etc.).

    Pretty interesting concept...to disable the car when the customer doesn't pay his lease rate anymore. indecision

    What would be even better is if Tesla  would get the summon feature to work across country, then if the customer stopped paying they could just summon the car back to the dealership, 0 hassle Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    I bet you anything Elon has asked if he can honk all the cars at once indecision


    Re: Tesla

    Enmanuel:

    I bet you anything Elon has asked if he can honk all the cars at once indecision

    Or make them all fart at once.  When my wife borrows the car 🚗 I enjoy watching the parking lot remotely for her return to the car and then I let it rip when she gets close.  Also great to use on by passers. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Think about having purchases a new Model Y days before the $13k price cut.  Additionally, the new price means that the Model Y now qualifies for the $7,500 U.S. EV tax credit, so some owners have lost over $20k on their purchase in a matter of days.  That leaves a nice feeling for a new owner.

    At least you would still have an amazing car.
    Now imagine all those who bought something other than a Tesla.  Lol.
    Do you think a new Mustang Mach e owner did not just take a depreciation hit?  
    How this impact sales of all the other EVs or plain old cars?  Can they lower prices by 20%?

    might still be time to get an order in. Elon already mentioned these prices will not last. Love it. 



    Re: Tesla

    You have got to be kidding me?? on a truck? ROTFLMAO 

    https://insideevs.com/news/631300/tesla-design-boss-says-yoke-makes-lot-of-sense-for-cybertruck/

    this is too funny, just going to sit back and grab my popcorn and watch this one unfold indecision  1331921569018Popcorn_Smiley_by_Probocaster.gif


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Think about having purchases a new Model Y days before the $13k price cut.  Additionally, the new price means that the Model Y now qualifies for the $7,500 U.S. EV tax credit, so some owners have lost over $20k on their purchase in a matter of days.  That leaves a nice feeling for a new owner.

    At least you would still have an amazing car.
    Now imagine all those who bought something other than a Tesla.  Lol.
    Do you think a new Mustang Mach e owner did not just take a depreciation hit?  
    How this impact sales of all the other EVs or plain old cars?  Can they lower prices by 20%?

    might still be time to get an order in. Elon already mentioned these prices will not last. Love it. 

     

    All cars depreciate, it's just natural. Why pay more of a used car when one can buy a new one? Other EV makers are still trying to catch up with order demand, why the need to cut prices? Tesla has over shot their demand hence hwy they are cutting prices to move stock. You want a new Tesla? Come to Vancouver and get one. I thought they be all gone today but surprised!, there are still a few new ones on the lot. There are still no new Mach Es sitting on Ford lots or Ioniq 5s on Hyundai lots, go figure.

    You want a Ford Lightning? Good luck waiting. Want a new Taycan? Sorry nothing on the lot either. But we have a bunch of used Teslas over there. 

    The earlier price rise was just due to temporary supply and demand curve moving. a bubble, nothing more. Even special cars are not immune. Look at CGT, it went up to a high go 1.9mil, now they are under a mil, think that guy is kicking his own balls right now? Sure is. 

    A select few will have staying power for high price, but they are special cars. Are Teslas specials? Far from it. 

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Think about having purchases a new Model Y days before the $13k price cut.  Additionally, the new price means that the Model Y now qualifies for the $7,500 U.S. EV tax credit, so some owners have lost over $20k on their purchase in a matter of days.  That leaves a nice feeling for a new owner.

    At least you would still have an amazing car.
    Now imagine all those who bought something other than a Tesla.  Lol.
    Do you think a new Mustang Mach e owner did not just take a depreciation hit?  
    How this impact sales of all the other EVs or plain old cars?  Can they lower prices by 20%?

    might still be time to get an order in. Elon already mentioned these prices will not last. Love it. 

     

    All cars depreciate, it's just natural. Why pay more of a used car when one can buy a new one? Other EV makers are still trying to catch up with order demand, why the need to cut prices? Tesla has over shot their demand hence hwy they are cutting prices to move stock. You want a new Tesla? Come to Vancouver and get one. I thought they be all gone today but surprised!, there are still a few new ones on the lot. There are still no new Mach Es sitting on Ford lots or Ioniq 5s on Hyundai lots, go figure.

    You want a Ford Lightning? Good luck waiting. Want a new Taycan? Sorry nothing on the lot either. But we have a bunch of used Teslas over there. 

    The earlier price rise was just due to temporary supply and demand curve moving. a bubble, nothing more. Even special cars are not immune. Look at CGT, it went up to a high go 1.9mil, now they are under a mil, think that guy is kicking his own balls right now? Sure is. 

    A select few will have staying power for high price, but they are special cars. Are Teslas specials? Far from it. 

     

    You've missed something very important.  Tesla always stressed that it differed from traditional automakers by having its own distribution network and a build-to-order system that eliminates unsold inventory.  Once again, that fallacy is exposed as an untruth with excessive inventory in its sales channel.


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    You have got to be kidding me?? on a truck? ROTFLMAO 

    https://insideevs.com/news/631300/tesla-design-boss-says-yoke-makes-lot-of-sense-for-cybertruck/

    this is too funny, just going to sit back and grab my popcorn and watch this one unfold indecision  1331921569018Popcorn_Smiley_by_Probocaster.gif

    Back when I was starting in architecture school I designed an art gallery entirely in glass. It made as much sense, and was as practical as this. Mostly because nobody would ever build it either. 


    Re: Tesla

    I’ll repeat. Fourth quarter had slow sales as people anticipated the rebates. Teslas were priced out of the rebate so they lowered the price to match the requirement and got the rebate in addition. Win win. You would need to be blind to not see what was going on but I understand the thinking here.  
    Would you go buy a car in December knowing a $7500 rebate was coming?  
    The Real question who would buy any other EV that has not had a 20% price cut recently?  
    They did not ever have an excess inventory problem. They have the lowest number day’s inventory in the industry. By far. 
    Good luck ordering a Tesla in the next few months, they will be selling like hot cakes. Excess inventory my foot. Lol. 
    Yes, all cars depreciate but thanks to the Tesla price drop the other EVs are worth 20% less today, same with all other cars. Not because they normally depreciate but because they need to be competitive.  Elon and Tesla can afford the price drop to gain market share. Can the others drop their price?  Can they even make EVs fast enough at the new prices?  Hmmm

     


    Re: Tesla

    Why would the others drop their prices if at their current prices they are already sold out unlike Tesla? you can sell this as a win for new customers, I'll give you that, but not for Tesla who is having to cut their profits to sell the cars they produced but were not able to deliver last year.


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    I’ll repeat. Fourth quarter had slow sales as people anticipated the rebates. Teslas were priced out of the rebate so they lowered the price to match the requirement and got the rebate in addition. Win win. You would need to be blind to not see what was going on but I understand the thinking here.  
    Would you go buy a car in December knowing a $7500 rebate was coming?  
    The Real question who would buy any other EV that has not had a 20% price cut recently?  
    They did not ever have an excess inventory problem. They have the lowest number day’s inventory in the industry. By far. 
    Good luck ordering a Tesla in the next few months, they will be selling like hot cakes. Excess inventory my foot. Lol. 
    Yes, all cars depreciate but thanks to the Tesla price drop the other EVs are worth 20% less today, same with all other cars. Not because they normally depreciate but because they need to be competitive.  Elon and Tesla can afford the price drop to gain market share. Can the others drop their price?  Can they even make EVs fast enough at the new prices?  Hmmm

     

     

    And I will repeat myself again also Smiley

    The inventory issue didn't just pop out in December, I have basically been reporting new cars sitting unsold on lots for the last 6 months or so, ever since other competitors had finally ramped up their production to full capacity. Who in their right mind would want to buy a 8-10 year old "new" car when competitors are brand spanking new fresh design? WIthout the auto-kill-driver feature? Or the aim-for-parked-emergency-vehicle feature?

    The EV market is growing, but not as quickly as Tesla been losing market share. Tesla really desperately need a refresh of their lineup quickly, both in styling and content, just to catch up, or at least maintain a respectable market share. 

    Why do Ford need to offer rebate to move their Mach Es? Or Lightnings? They can't keep any on dealers' lots right now. Rebates only happened when they do year end push for sales numbers or clearing out last model year leftovers. Dealers are charging great ADMs on Mach Es and Lightnings right now still. 

    Hyundai also is having problem making enough of the Ioniq 5s/EV6s/GV60s trio, universally accepted as the best EV on the market right now. There is no need to provide any incentive to move them, they practically sell themselves. You ever heard of people paying ADM to BUY A HYUNDAI!?!?! Yup, it is happening for the Ioniq 5.  Before I buy the Mach E, I was looking at the Ioniq 5, it was sold out, and I was offered a spot on the WAITLIST for 5k. Not the actual order, but paying 5k to the dealer just so I can have a chance to move from wait list to placing an actual order. Crazier than trying to buy a Porsche or Ferrari.

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Sold out how many?  They are sold out because they are caught with their pants down trying to make them. Those who make plenty are sitting on them like VW. 


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    I’ll repeat. Fourth quarter had slow sales as people anticipated the rebates. Teslas were priced out of the rebate so they lowered the price to match the requirement and got the rebate in addition. Win win. You would need to be blind to not see what was going on but I understand the thinking here.  
    Would you go buy a car in December knowing a $7500 rebate was coming?  
    The Real question who would buy any other EV that has not had a 20% price cut recently?  
    They did not ever have an excess inventory problem. They have the lowest number day’s inventory in the industry. By far. 
    Good luck ordering a Tesla in the next few months, they will be selling like hot cakes. Excess inventory my foot. Lol. 
    Yes, all cars depreciate but thanks to the Tesla price drop the other EVs are worth 20% less today, same with all other cars. Not because they normally depreciate but because they need to be competitive.  Elon and Tesla can afford the price drop to gain market share. Can the others drop their price?  Can they even make EVs fast enough at the new prices?  Hmmm

     

     

    And I will repeat myself again also Smiley

    The inventory issue didn't just pop out in December, I have basically been reporting new cars sitting unsold on lots for the last 6 months or so, ever since other competitors had finally ramped up their production to full capacity. Who in their right mind would want to buy a 8-10 year old "new" car when competitors are brand spanking new fresh design? WIthout the auto-kill-driver feature? Or the aim-for-parked-emergency-vehicle feature?

    The EV market is growing, but not as quickly as Tesla been losing market share. Tesla really desperately need a refresh of their lineup quickly, both in styling and content, just to catch up, or at least maintain a respectable market share. 

    Why do Ford need to offer rebate to move their Mach Es? Or Lightnings? They can't keep any on dealers' lots right now. Rebates only happened when they do year end push for sales numbers or clearing out last model year leftovers. Dealers are charging great ADMs on Mach Es and Lightnings right now still. 

    Hyundai also is having problem making enough of the Ioniq 5s/EV6s/GV60s trio, universally accepted as the best EV on the market right now. There is no need to provide any incentive to move them, they practically sell themselves. You ever heard of people paying ADM to BUY A HYUNDAI!?!?! Yup, it is happening for the Ioniq 5.  Before I buy the Mach E, I was looking at the Ioniq 5, it was sold out, and I was offered a spot on the WAITLIST for 5k. Not the actual order, but paying 5k to the dealer just so I can have a chance to move from wait list to placing an actual order. Crazier than trying to buy a Porsche or Ferrari.

     

    It will be very fun for me to see again and again how this will turn out. Cheers


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Sold out how many?  They are sold out because they are caught with their pants down trying to make them. Those who make plenty are sitting on them like VW. 

     

    Huh?

    VW? What about VW? You can't walk into anywhere to buy a new Taycan or ID4.

    The only EV one can walk in and walk out with out new is a Tesla right now. Which basically means Tesla is the only one with production issue, aka, making too many. Everyone else is still catching up to demand. 

    You really funny you know. Twisting facts, but that's expected with all Tesla fans.

    No one is denying Tesla sells a lot of EVs, we are just pointing out the fact that the 'expected' demand of Tesla is off the realistic number.

    Am I saying Tesla isn't selling well? Nope. Right now, just about every food delivery driver here and Uber driver here are driving Teslas, and at every red light, there are at least 5 or 6 of them around me. I never said they don't sell many. 

    All I am saying is that their unrealistic sale growth projection is an imaginary one, especially now that competition is here and they don't have a monopoly anymore. 

     

     

     


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