Crown
Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Jul 11, 2007 10:26:17 PM
- MMD
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: usa
- Posts: 9652, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
- Reply to: OuTLaW_Rules
Jul 12, 2007 3:21:49 PM
- Dan L
- Expert
-
- Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States
- Posts: 1957, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 2, 2006
- Reply to: Bluehinder
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
Oh, I forgot..., what the braking distance differences between yellow and red?
I might revise my opinion (worth two cents) because significant _safety_ improvement would make PCCB significantly more desireable.
Safety _and_ ease of cleaning are about equal factors in getting PCCBs (kidding).
I might revise my opinion (worth two cents) because significant _safety_ improvement would make PCCB significantly more desireable.
Safety _and_ ease of cleaning are about equal factors in getting PCCBs (kidding).
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
These are the *supposed* benefits: Light weight, GREAT initial bite that allows one to brake later into corners, less brake fade, min. brake dust (very important! 
), looks pretty (very very important 
), lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use.
These are the disadvantages: Terrible cost/benefit ratio, not good for the abuse of track, each rotor costs 5000 to replace, despite of better initial bite, there is no improvement in stopping distance, probably because tire adherence is the limiting factor.
This one was a tough decision for me as well. To this day I am STILL 50/50.
I read all the posts I could find, pm'ed all the people who have both brakes on 2 Porsche cars at the same time on a long term basis (no one-day tester), one answer stood out in my mind: "IT'S A WONDERFUL LUXURY THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY. I **WILL** have it in all my future cars." LOL.
BTW, when I asked multiple-car owners who have both PCCB and iron, the answer is universally in favor of PCCB in my huge sample of 4 people.
Re. some of the pro's and con's:
There is a significant 35 lbs. unsprung weight saving. The performance gain (not acceleration, but suspension related) could be felt easily even in street drivig, if you are to believe one of the people I asked who tests brake for a living
The problem with PCCB is the terrible cost/benefit ratio. That is, there is a benefit, whether the cost is justified depends on how much $ you have AND what you think 9k should bring in braking.
The paradox: By most "experts," the system is not recommended for track. It lasts longer for normal wear and tear, but it probably won't stand the abuse of tracking.
Braking distances: Same because tire adherence is limit here. That's the explanation I've read, not fact. There IS a difference with "initial bite," in favor of PCCB.
Does anyone have objective data showing probably the most popular and "best" upgrade alternative, Brembo GT, showing better stopping distance than stock or PCCB please?
), looks pretty (very very important ), lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use.
These are the disadvantages: Terrible cost/benefit ratio, not good for the abuse of track, each rotor costs 5000 to replace, despite of better initial bite, there is no improvement in stopping distance, probably because tire adherence is the limiting factor.
This one was a tough decision for me as well. To this day I am STILL 50/50.
I read all the posts I could find, pm'ed all the people who have both brakes on 2 Porsche cars at the same time on a long term basis (no one-day tester), one answer stood out in my mind: "IT'S A WONDERFUL LUXURY THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY. I **WILL** have it in all my future cars." LOL.
BTW, when I asked multiple-car owners who have both PCCB and iron, the answer is universally in favor of PCCB in my huge sample of 4 people.
Re. some of the pro's and con's:
There is a significant 35 lbs. unsprung weight saving. The performance gain (not acceleration, but suspension related) could be felt easily even in street drivig, if you are to believe one of the people I asked who tests brake for a living
The problem with PCCB is the terrible cost/benefit ratio. That is, there is a benefit, whether the cost is justified depends on how much $ you have AND what you think 9k should bring in braking.
The paradox: By most "experts," the system is not recommended for track. It lasts longer for normal wear and tear, but it probably won't stand the abuse of tracking.
Braking distances: Same because tire adherence is limit here. That's the explanation I've read, not fact. There IS a difference with "initial bite," in favor of PCCB.
Does anyone have objective data showing probably the most popular and "best" upgrade alternative, Brembo GT, showing better stopping distance than stock or PCCB please?
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
>>>>you don't cite the longevity of the PCCBs compared to iron
I did:
>>>>lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use
But your point is well taken, perhaps I should change it to "high." BTW, as of now my September built Turbo has the $9000 box checked.
I actually am about 51% 
in favor of PCCB.
**Assuming** one wants to upgrade from Big Red (iself an excellent brake), the problem re. cost/benefit ratio of PCCB is also the alternative, Brembo GT. If Porsche offered Brembo as the upgrade path, I believe the cost would/should be considerably less than 9k, for arguably the same or better braking performance than PCCB, and for a system that is more "track safe." Any brake expert here would like to comment on this?
I did:
>>>>lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use
But your point is well taken, perhaps I should change it to "high." BTW, as of now my September built Turbo has the $9000 box checked.
I actually am about 51% in favor of PCCB.
**Assuming** one wants to upgrade from Big Red (iself an excellent brake), the problem re. cost/benefit ratio of PCCB is also the alternative, Brembo GT. If Porsche offered Brembo as the upgrade path, I believe the cost would/should be considerably less than 9k, for arguably the same or better braking performance than PCCB, and for a system that is more "track safe." Any brake expert here would like to comment on this?
Quote:
Dan L said:
You state a disadvantage of "Terrible cost/benefit ratio..." yet you don't cite the longevity of the PCCBs compared to iron brakes. How have you calculated the Cost Benefit ? It's mere conjecture on your part.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
This topic has been beaten to death and Cannga's post is the best I have read to date. Go for it if: (1)You will only use the car for steet use or limited track use(2) You can afford the extra cost. (3) You like the color yellow (4) You hate to clean brake dust (5) The extra weight savings is a big factor for you and (6) Your the type of guy that wants the latest and greatest and won't settle for less. Don't load up the car with a ton of options that are not performance oriented and then add the PCCB to save weight because that would be redundant? On a GT3 I would definately get them because weight reduction on that car is more critical. I say this because even on the gen 2 PCCB brakes hardcore track guys have taken their cars in to my Porsche dealership with issues relating to heat, excessive wear, and rotors that aren't holding up to excessive abuse (premature wear and fractures). The warranty does not cover this if you track your car. Thats why I don't recomend them for hardcore track use at least at this point in time.
Jul 13, 2007 12:16:23 AM
- gradyex
- Pilot
-
- Loc: S.F. Bay Area, CA.
- Posts: 334, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 21, 2004
- Reply to: Bluehinder
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
Quote:
Bluehinder said:
Goodness no, you don't need them. Smart move for a street car. Get a little more leather.
You won't be sorry.
With all the extra leather I got I could of easily traded it for the PCCB's and if i had to do it again I wouldn't change a thing. To each his own, thats the beauty of owning a Porsche. I love leather and appreciate the quality and handmade feel it gives this expensive car. Unfortunately I had to keep the price of the car at a certain level or I would have gone for more leather options!LOL!
Jul 13, 2007 1:14:31 PM
- TT Surgeon
- Senior
-
- Loc: Long Island, NY , United States
- Posts: 783, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 28, 2004
- Reply to: gradyex
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
PCCB's are the great cure for a problem that doesn't exist. There is nothing wrong with steel brakes, esp at the track they have the upper hand re reliability and cost to replace. If you track your car and have never had to replace your rotors(c4s/tt) you're probably not tracking it hard enough!
That being said, if they weren't a 9k option I probably would have considered them more.
That being said, if they weren't a 9k option I probably would have considered them more.
Jul 13, 2007 1:48:51 PM
- Uber-porker
- Junior
-
- Loc: Minnesota
- Posts: 142, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 15, 2006
- Reply to: TT Surgeon
Jul 13, 2007 4:17:53 PM
- AK997TT
- Junior
-
- Loc: SoCal
- Posts: 76, Gallery
- Registered on: Sep 22, 2006
- Reply to: Uber-porker
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
PCCB's are no doubt an expensive option but I love mine. I elected to check that box instead of all the leather goodies. I had steel brakes on another Porsche model and must say they are great brakes, however that don't feel as "confident" as the PCCB's. I prefer the way they look, the way the fill up the space behind the wheel, the way they feel, and the fact that they operate much cleaner than steel brakes. The car stays much cleaner with the PCCB's. The steel brakes make a dusty mess on one good drive. Do you need PCCB's.....absolutely not, but they are great to have.
Jul 13, 2007 8:19:25 PM
- MMD
- Rennteam VIP
-
- Loc: usa
- Posts: 9652, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
- Reply to: Uber-porker
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
Quote:
Uber-porker said:
PCCBs simply look a lot better with most exterior colors. For most people apperance as well a performance is important.
With all due respect to everybody (no kidding) BUT:
How could an ugly, lumpy, chunky casting (caliper) when painted a distractingly bright red or bright yellow EVER LOOK GOOD?
Are you guys nuts?
They're hideous!
Don't you see Porsche painted them to create "my-brakes-are better-than-yours" BS and one-upsmanship competiton between Porsche owners? This tactic certainly works in _Porsche's_ favor!
Stoooopidest thing I EVER saw to paint the calipers in annoyingly loud colors! Second stuuupidest would be fake quads on the 997S.
Does anybody care about letting really nice wheels have the stage to themselves and not have to share it with a freeking brightly-colored _tumor_?
Sorry..., rant over... .
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
Will never, ever buy another Porsche w/ out PCCB's. The steel brakes suck the big one...The ONLY thing I really hate about my 997 is the steel brakes & the complete mess they create and rob me of my time. When it takes longer to clean the wheels/calipers then it does to clean the entire rest of the car something is wrong. I'm about the 'throw in the towel' and give up trying to keep the wheels & brake calipers clean entirely. After 6 months, a year or this bs it was just kinda annoying but now after 2 yrs I can honestly say I've recently avoided washing my car because I didn't want to deal w/ the mess of the brakes. For a guy that usually enjoys detailing his cars, not good. There's also the looks of course. The PCCB's/rotors look much more high-tech especially the larger rotors & the rotors dont stay looking rusty & cruddy like steel. Guess my point to end my rant is - Even if the PCCB's didn't offer all the performance gains, less weight, less fade and weren't less money to maintain then steel (w/ the steel system needing rotor changes w/ every/every other pad change) I'd buy them just on their ease of cleaning benefits alone! If I had plans to keep my 997 I'd probably be kicking myself right now for comprimising & ordering steel when I probably ordered $7 or $8k in do dad leather & other options. The Carbon Ceramic's on my F430 were worth every bit of the $18k they cost, Porsche's PCCB's are a bargain.
So guess I'd say yes, order them unless it really hurts financially to do so.
So guess I'd say yes, order them unless it really hurts financially to do so.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood
twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph)
without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more
sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers
(185,000 miles)."
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at
least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being
the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on
the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new
technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it's dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent
less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for
improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes
maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the
ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water
resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp
on the brake pedal. It's service life is every bit as effortless: the
ceramic's hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to
last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time
indeed."
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the
owner's manual it better say "don't put your foot on the brakes unless you
look in the rear view mirror first." There might also need to be a word
about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while
during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear
and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little
dust. They are reported to be very durable - as in forever - but be prepared
to buy pads a bit more often."
Suncoast Motors - on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a
production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a
powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme
conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially
treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately
1,700 *C. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is
approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight
is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically
improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the
innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to
deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By
replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs,
temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration
not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use -
it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade
resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to
the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each
PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new
composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones.
What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding
performance in the wet.
"In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood
twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph)
without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more
sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers
(185,000 miles)."
Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:
"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at
least, wear and tear)
Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being
the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on
the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new
technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.
While it's dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent
less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for
improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes
maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the
ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water
resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.
PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp
on the brake pedal. It's service life is every bit as effortless: the
ceramic's hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to
last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time
indeed."
Porsche Panorama, April 2001
"In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the
owner's manual it better say "don't put your foot on the brakes unless you
look in the rear view mirror first." There might also need to be a word
about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while
during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear
and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little
dust. They are reported to be very durable - as in forever - but be prepared
to buy pads a bit more often."
Suncoast Motors - on their website:
"The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a
production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a
powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme
conditions on racetrack and road.
At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially
treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately
1,700 *C. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is
approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight
is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically
improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the
innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to
deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By
replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs,
temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration
not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use -
it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade
resistance.
In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to
the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each
PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new
composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones.
What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding
performance in the wet.
Jul 15, 2007 1:13:50 PM
- Uber-porker
- Junior
-
- Loc: Minnesota
- Posts: 142, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 15, 2006
- Reply to: MMD
Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
Uber-porker said:
PCCBs simply look a lot better with most exterior colors. For most people apperance as well a performance is important.
With all due respect to everybody (no kidding) BUT:
How could an ugly, lumpy, chunky casting (caliper) when painted a distractingly bright red or bright yellow EVER LOOK GOOD?
Are you guys nuts?
They're hideous!
Don't you see Porsche painted them to create "my-brakes-are better-than-yours" BS and one-upsmanship competiton between Porsche owners? This tactic certainly works in _Porsche's_ favor!
Stoooopidest thing I EVER saw to paint the calipers in annoyingly loud colors! Second stuuupidest would be fake quads on the 997S.
Does anybody care about letting really nice wheels have the stage to themselves and not have to share it with a freeking brightly-colored _tumor_?
Sorry..., rant over... .
Like it or not the calipers are painted. I also think that this adds value. Must live with one or other. Part of the package. Therefore one's own taste should prevail if possible. Extensive Porsche experience and/or knowledge is irrelevant. Let's move on.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
I won't even start to argue regarding caliper paint, I leave it to those who care. 
To make it short: I would NEVER EVER order a Porsche sportscar again without PCCB. Period.
I didn't like PCCB at the beginning when it showed up. Most reviews were pretty bad and even the second and third generation (which made their way to the customers without people even noticing it) weren't too good. With the introduction of the 997, things changed. I HAD to buy a 997 Carrera S with PCCB because I wanted one of the first cars out of a special batch with the non-PASM sport chassis and LSD. All these cars were equipped with PCCB, so there was no option NOT to go for it. What a luck, from this point on, I started to love PCCB. Very firm brake feel, very precise braking dosage, impressive performance during hot days, etc. The only thing which never really improved much was...squeaking. Even my current 997 Turbo PCCB has squeaking, it is VERY loud but fortunately, it comes and goes and it happens VERY seldom.
Hope this helps.
To make it short: I would NEVER EVER order a Porsche sportscar again without PCCB. Period.
I didn't like PCCB at the beginning when it showed up. Most reviews were pretty bad and even the second and third generation (which made their way to the customers without people even noticing it) weren't too good. With the introduction of the 997, things changed. I HAD to buy a 997 Carrera S with PCCB because I wanted one of the first cars out of a special batch with the non-PASM sport chassis and LSD. All these cars were equipped with PCCB, so there was no option NOT to go for it. What a luck, from this point on, I started to love PCCB. Very firm brake feel, very precise braking dosage, impressive performance during hot days, etc. The only thing which never really improved much was...squeaking. Even my current 997 Turbo PCCB has squeaking, it is VERY loud but fortunately, it comes and goes and it happens VERY seldom.
Hope this helps.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
RC,
I have approx. 1500 miles on my TT and the PCCB's only squeak AFTER a days drive when I'm pulling into my driveway ! Are they yelling out "Thank you G-D, I'm finally going home ?". Other than the loud squeaks, they ARE the best brakes I have ever used in a road car.
I have approx. 1500 miles on my TT and the PCCB's only squeak AFTER a days drive when I'm pulling into my driveway ! Are they yelling out "Thank you G-D, I'm finally going home ?". Other than the loud squeaks, they ARE the best brakes I have ever used in a road car.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
There are many threads on the pros and cons of PCCB. This is one of the best.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=362137
The short version: The main advantage of PCCB is reduction in unsprung weight. The main disadvantage is cost.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=362137
The short version: The main advantage of PCCB is reduction in unsprung weight. The main disadvantage is cost.
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
One personal factor that played a major role in not ordering the PCCB option for my 2008 TT is that I cannot use my 18" Carerra III wheels with my winter tires.
I did not want to purchase another set of 19" wheels and use 19" winter tires and basically chuck my current winter wheel/tires. Essentially this makes the PCCB option, if I'm going to drive the TT in winter here in Chicago, a $14k option (9k PCCB + 5k winter wheels and tires). That said, if the PCCBs were 4k....hmmmm....
I did not want to purchase another set of 19" wheels and use 19" winter tires and basically chuck my current winter wheel/tires. Essentially this makes the PCCB option, if I'm going to drive the TT in winter here in Chicago, a $14k option (9k PCCB + 5k winter wheels and tires). That said, if the PCCBs were 4k....hmmmm....
Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??
I agree that it is a very VERY good discussion and would also highly recommend reading it. Even though that "RC" wouldn't readily admit to it, as the "interrogator" I would like to add "great bite/feel" to your short summary, though.
So if I have to a provide a 2 seconds summary on why I kept that 9k box checked and why I have second thought of upgrading to Brembo GT instead:
(Supposed) Pro's: Great feel/bite, improved suspension related performance due to less unsprung weight that could be felt even with street driving, less brake dust.
(Supposed) Con's: Cost, not necessarily recommended for aggressive track driving.
I added "supposed" in hope someone doesn't jump in to disagree and start this thread all over again.
and would also highly recommend reading it. Even though that "RC" wouldn't readily admit to it, as the "interrogator" I would like to add "great bite/feel" to your short summary, though.
So if I have to a provide a 2 seconds summary on why I kept that 9k box checked and why I have second thought of upgrading to Brembo GT instead:
(Supposed) Pro's: Great feel/bite, improved suspension related performance due to less unsprung weight that could be felt even with street driving, less brake dust.
(Supposed) Con's: Cost, not necessarily recommended for aggressive track driving.
I added "supposed" in hope someone doesn't jump in to disagree and start this thread all over again.
Quote:
AUM said:
There are many threads on the pros and cons of PCCB. This is one of the best.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=362137
The short version: The main advantage of PCCB is reduction in unsprung weight. The main disadvantage is cost.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
