Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread



    Re: Think About It!!!

    In Europe Corvette(Z06 or not) is dead in the water...
    Z06 is probably the biggest bang for the buck but, even that will not pump up sale in Europe. I respect Z06 very much but, I will never buy one! Most of the people here which are from Europe think the same, IMO.
    And please, end this stupid comparison between Vette and 997 Turbo(or forthcoming GT3).

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    http://www.autoextremist.com/page5.shtml#RoadKill


    I agree with almost 100% of that, sadly...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Cool, another Corvette thread. We haven't had one of those in a while...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I agree with almost 100% of that, sadly...



    I hear and understand what you're saying, Grant, but the fact is that Porsche can take its so-called "lack of vision" to the bank and cash it in. GM has to take the roundabout route home to avoid passing any banks, to avoid embarressment.

    So who's getting it right, and who's getting it wrong?

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I agree with almost 100% of that, sadly...



    I hear and understand what you're saying, Grant, but the fact is that Porsche can take its so-called "lack of vision" to the bank and cash it in. GM has to take the roundabout route home to avoid passing any banks, to avoid embarressment.

    So who's getting it right, and who's getting it wrong?


    I wasn't really focusing on the Corvette comments as much as the criticisms of Porsche. It's entirely possible that what I want/expect from a Porsche is just different from the buying public at large...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I wasn't really focusing on the Corvette comments as much as the criticisms of Porsche.


    I had realized that.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    It's entirely possible that what I want/expect from a Porsche is just different from the buying public at large...



    I had also recognized that a long time ago from your posts. You are basically just a GT3 hunter who has not yet got around to squeezing the trigger.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    It's entirely possible that what I want/expect from a Porsche is just different from the buying public at large...


    What YOU want gets them sued by irresponsable greedy hypocrits.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    In Europe Corvette(Z06 or not) is dead in the water...
    Z06 is probably the biggest bang for the buck but, even that will not pump up sale in Europe. I respect Z06 very much but, I will never buy one! Most of the people here which are from Europe think the same, IMO.
    And please, end this stupid comparison between Vette and 997 Turbo(or forthcoming GT3).



    Import duties are high on the Z06. I thougt I read it cost close to 100,000 euro. to buy which is ridiculous.

    I would like to see the Cayman with a bigger engine. Unfortunately, that would be a dagger in their cash cow and Porsche isn't going to let that happen.

    BTW, the sedan I would consider buying so long as they do not over price it. I still believe Porsche makes an excellent car and worth buying providing all the stars aligned.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    fritz said:I had also recognized that a long time ago from your posts. You are basically just a GT3 hunter who has not yet got around to squeezing the trigger.


    Fritz - this is a very true statement. I had a deposit and order on a 2004GT3, but I withdrew when my track car (88 951S with mods) burned to the ground with no insurance. So, instead I bought my 2 current Porsche (for $25k less money than my ordered GT3).

    There is still a part of me that really admires the GT3 and I do wish I had the ownership experience. However, I firmly believe (however deluded ) that my 73RS is more fun (much more accesible performance, better sounding, and much more driver feedback) to drive on the track and my 993 is more appropriate for the majority of my street driving (and it looks alot prettier).

    I wish I could afford to buy one and know if I made the right choice for sure

    Re: Think About It!!!

    I think a lot of the criticism leveled at Porsche in this write-up can basically be attributed to one thing...

    The need to make the 911 appeal to a larger buying audience in order for Porsche to survive.

    Track enthusiasts on this board notwithstanding, the majority of Porsche's buyers do not want a harsh, loud, stripped-down race car. When I see 911 drivers on the road, most of them look like they would be just as happy driving a Lexus. Porsche must appeal to that side of the market in order to maintain high sales numbers.

    In the early days, all cars were probably loud and harsh, so Porsche competed well in that market. Times have changed.

    I think Porsche tries to appeal to both sides with more focused cars like the GT3, but the days of the base C2 being a raw racer are long gone.

    GM and others have the luxury of being in a position where most of their income is from cars other than sports cars, so they have more freedom when it comes to designing their sports cars.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:I had also recognized that a long time ago from your posts. You are basically just a GT3 hunter who has not yet got around to squeezing the trigger.


    Fritz - this is a very true statement. I had a deposit and order on a 2004GT3, but I withdrew when my track car (88 951S with mods) burned to the ground with no insurance. So, instead I bought my 2 current Porsche (for $25k less money than my ordered GT3).


    Oh boy, I didn't know that. Really sorry to hear it.

    Quote:
    Grant said:There is still a part of me that really admires the GT3 and I do wish I had the ownership experience. However, I firmly believe (however deluded ) that my 73RS is more fun (much more accesible performance, better sounding, and much more driver feedback) to drive on the track and my 993 is more appropriate for the majority of my street driving (and it looks alot prettier).


    C'mon, you KNOW you are not deluding yourself.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I wish I could afford to buy one and know if I made the right choice for sure


    Life may be short, but not so short that you won't have the opportunity to find out. Hopefully without having to sacrifice one of your current cars. Sounds like you'd hate for one of them to have to go.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    To bring down the 911 to the level of a Vette, is to bring down a Gallardo to the level of a Lacer EVO, or a F430 to the level of a M3-CSL...

    You can compare performance or fuel economy in each of these 3 scenarios but you cannot put the "whole package" in the same category much less the same pricetag standards...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    fritz said:Life may be short, but not so short that you won't have the opportunity to find out. Hopefully without having to sacrifice one of your current cars. Sounds like you'd hate for one of them to have to go.


    Well, I would have trouble parting with my current cars (no way I'd let go of the 73). I have briefly driven a 996 GT3 and would like to try one on a track sometime. I wish they were a bit lighter. I see my friends use up tires and brakes on GT3's in one weekend what I use in a whole season on the 73. If the 997 GT3RS comes out ALOT lighter and is sold in the US, maybe I'll have to put a second mortgage on the house and sell the 993

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    If the 997 GT3RS comes out ALOT lighter and is sold in the US, maybe I'll have to put a second mortgage on the house and sell the 993



    Given the "climate" for reducing car weights with increasingly stringent safety requirements, I guess you'll be keeping your 993 a while yet.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    If the 997 GT3RS comes out ALOT lighter and is sold in the US, maybe I'll have to put a second mortgage on the house and sell the 993



    Given the "climate" for reducing car weights with increasingly stringent safety requirements, I guess you'll be keeping your 993 a while yet.


    I think you're right, but at least the 997TT is lighter with aluminum doors, etc. Maybe they'll continue this trend further with the GT3 and further still with the RS...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    If the 997 GT3RS comes out ALOT lighter and is sold in the US, maybe I'll have to put a second mortgage on the house and sell the 993



    Given the "climate" for reducing car weights with increasingly stringent safety requirements, I guess you'll be keeping your 993 a while yet.


    I think you're right, but at least the 997TT is lighter with aluminum doors, etc. Maybe they'll continue this trend further with the GT3 and further still with the RS...



    Grant or Fritz,

    Any idea how much weight the 911Turbo or GT3 would save if the same CF monococque structure implemented on the CGT found its way onto the 911 series? Plus with copious use of aluminum elsewhere? And how about a reversal of the trend towards continued lengthening of the wheelbase aggravated by the 993-to-996 re-design?

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:To bring down the 911 to the level of a Vette, is to bring down a Gallardo to the level of a Lacer EVO, or a F430 to the level of a M3-CSL...


    Bring DOWN the 911 to the level of a Vette??? Typical...So typical!!! I have owned both 911's and Vettes, and let me tell you, the Vette is superior in almost EVERY catagory.
    And that includes build quality, performance, cost of service, technology, and so on. My 911 was in the shop almost every month for something or another. My buddy has had 2 TT's, one of which was in the shop 8 times for rattles! I have owned 7 Vettes and they have been the most trouble free cars that I have experienced! When my Z needs an oil change, I go to Jiffy Lube and am there for 30 minutes...and I never see a P car at Jiffy Lube.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    "The Article" said:They (Corvettes) were fast alright, but a well-driven 911 could out-brake and generally spank a Corvette on a road course. That is no longer the case, however. The current model-year 911 may have been sharpened a whole bunch over its immediate predecessors, but there's no denying the fact that it's a bigger, heavier car that lacks the connectivity that the earlier, rowdier 911s had in spades.

    The author has been eating too much oat bran and it's starting to come out of his keyboard!

    The C4 Corvette of 1980s could nearly lap the average 911 of the day at drivers schools. I watched this from my instructor's seat at road courses from Watkimns Glen to Mid-Ohio. I didn't want a C4 then and I don't much want a C6 now.

    The C4 was very fast on a smooth road course, but on a back road, it displayed the bad effects of a beaming resonance in the chassis that peaked around 2 Hz. It made the back end hop all over the road if it were the least bit bumpy.

    This article is long on clever invective and short on true perspective.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:Any idea how much weight the 911Turbo or GT3 would save if the same CF monococque structure implemented on the CGT found its way onto the 911 series? Plus with copious use of aluminum elsewhere? And how about a reversal of the trend towards continued lengthening of the wheelbase aggravated by the 993-to-996 re-design?


    Good question. My CF 73 911 weighs 20% less than a stock 73 911 and it only uses carbon body panels (fenders, trunk, engine cover, doors, and bumpers with a steel unibody). If a 997GT3 used CF tub and body panels, shrunk its overall size back to 993 proportions, and dispensed with unecessary luxuries, I think 25% weight loss would be very possible. Part of the beauty of weight loss is that it allows further weight loss (a light car requires lighter wheels/tires/brakes/transmission, etc.) So, instead of a car weighing 3,100 lbs, it could weigh in the neighborhood of 2,325 lbs.


    That would be lighter than a Noble. I can only imagine what an incredible car this would make...

    Re: Think About It!!!

    The Z06 looks like a great car for the price, fast, powerful. The only reason why I wouldn't buy one is much simpler, to me it is ugly... It could be $30,000 I still wouldn't buy one.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    "The Article" said:They (Corvettes) were fast alright, but a well-driven 911 could out-brake and generally spank a Corvette on a road course. That is no longer the case, however. The current model-year 911 may have been sharpened a whole bunch over its immediate predecessors, but there's no denying the fact that it's a bigger, heavier car that lacks the connectivity that the earlier, rowdier 911s had in spades.

    The author has been eating too much oat bran and it's starting to come out of his keyboard!

    The C4 Corvette of 1980s could nearly lap the average 911 of the day at drivers schools. I watched this from my instructor's seat at road courses from Watkimns Glen to Mid-Ohio. I didn't want a C4 then and I don't much want a C6 now.

    The C4 was very fast on a smooth road course, but on a back road, it displayed the bad effects of a beaming resonance in the chassis that peaked around 2 Hz. It made the back end hop all over the road if it were the least bit bumpy.

    This article is long on clever invective and short on true perspective.




    RonnieC6Z only three post on the forum and you're bashing porsche.I remember driving an 87 corvette with the electrical
    dash and that thing had more bugs than a roach motel
    My friend just traded in his c6 conv. for a cadillac conv, because it rattled more than a tambourine. So get over it and go to the zo6 board

    Re: Think About It!!!

    I thought that I was a Jack Ass, but after reading that jazz about how heavy and wrong a 911 is compared to the past 911's, and a Corvette, All I can say is that yesterdays 911 was great, but today's Toyota is better, and I could have bought two Corvettes, but I would have been only half as happy.

    jb

    Re: Think About It!!!

    The whole discussion of 911VSCorvette is turning into a joke . I use to think it was funny at the beginning but not anymore, it sounds like 5 years old kids arguments. Can we stop it please .

    Re: Think About It!!!

    The Cayman should have replaced that old 911 feeling. Should have been as powerfull as the 911, but lighter/basic and roughly the same price as the current Cayman S. I'm thinking a Lotus Elise/Exige type of car. The 911 would be the luxery sportscar it currently is.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I hear and understand what you're saying, Grant, but the fact is that Porsche can take its so-called "lack of vision" to the bank and cash it in. GM has to take the roundabout route home to avoid passing any banks, to avoid embarressment.

    So who's getting it right, and who's getting it wrong?


    HA,so true!
    What also shows Porsche's "lack of vision" is that they want to have 20% of the VW-Group....I don't think that Ferrari could be a major shareholder of Fiat.

    Re: Think About It!!!


    Sorry Carlos,

    I see where you are coming from, but this is not a fair comparison IMO (in Germany we say the comparison limps!).

    Lancer and M3 are both derivates from mass produced models, which start at very low power/entry points. they are basic four seater model lines of the relative brands, souped up (very capably) for the occasion.
    The Corvette is a genuine sportscar in its own right! It might be tuned more to the american taste, but we should recognize that nonetheless! and the z06 happens to be the top of this sportscar range, like the 997tt is top of the 911 range. if you so want, the 997tt is as much a tuned version of the basic 911 as the z06 is of the c6, not more nor less.
    So the z06 really stands out for its value and capabilities and though it will not beat a 997tt on absolute terms, it probably might on relative ones (von Saurma will tell us!).
    :)

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Import duties are high on the Z06. I thougt I read it cost close to 100,000 euro. to buy which is ridiculous.



    Import duties are the SAME on all cars over here in Germany, no matter if you import a Z06 or a Saturn.
    The Z06 is OFFICIALLY available in Europe, there is no need for import. The price tag is around 79000 Euro incl. the usual GM warrantee. Compared to the 911, the Z06 is a bargain and still...most people won't touch it. Not because it isn't a good car (and even that we still don't know but you don't believe me...you have more trust in rumors, gossip and urban legends...look at your "import duties post") but because it is a car with a certain reputation over here, because you can't register/buy it for your business, you have to wait pretty long for spare parts, insurance is high, there aren't many dealers around who are specialized in Corvette maintenance/repairs and so on. And resale value...well...ridiculous.

    Of course the Z06 is a bargain, apparently GM has something to give away for free. And one year later, they are firing 20000 workers to finance their "gift" for customers.
    I don't know, Nick but I think as business men and people who are earning a substantial amount of money we should view these things a little bit different.

    And finally, I'm still waiting for a comparison review.
    Til then, the Z06 is more like a "paper tiger" like we are saying here, nothing to be concerned with.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    http://www.autoextremist.com/page5.shtml#RoadKill



    Right now I'm thinking about something else: why would a Z06 owner come over to a Porsche forum and tell people to "think about it"??? I know the answer but I don't want to offend anybody.

    Be happy with your decision but please do yourself a favor and do what you wrote in your thread title: THINK. And then tell me that it is a very intelligent thing to do to compare a car to another car which isn't even on the market yet. Then THINK again and tell if it is an intelligent thing to do to trust performance claims by the car manufacturer, gossip, rumors, urban legends, well known Corvette fanatics and unconfirmed (by independent sources) track test figures.

    So THINK and come back again...as soon as there will be a trustable COMPARISON test in a few months. Until then, stay with your Z06 pals and leave the big boys do their own thing. We're playing in a different league here.

    Re: Think About It!!!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Import duties are high on the Z06. I thougt I read it cost close to 100,000 euro. to buy which is ridiculous.



    Import duties are the SAME on all cars over here in Germany, no matter if you import a Z06 or a Saturn.
    The Z06 is OFFICIALLY available in Europe, there is no need for import. The price tag is around 79000 Euro incl. the usual GM warrantee. Compared to the 911, the Z06 is a bargain and still...most people won't touch it. Not because it isn't a good car (and even that we still don't know but you don't believe me...you have more trust in rumors, gossip and urban legends...look at your "import duties post") but because it is a car with a certain reputation over here, because you can't register/buy it for your business, you have to wait pretty long for spare parts, insurance is high, there aren't many dealers around who are specialized in Corvette maintenance/repairs and so on. And resale value...well...ridiculous.

    Of course the Z06 is a bargain, apparently GM has something to give away for free. And one year later, they are firing 20000 workers to finance their "gift" for customers.
    I don't know, Nick but I think as business men and people who are earning a substantial amount of money we should view these things a little bit different.

    And finally, I'm still waiting for a comparison review.
    Til then, the Z06 is more like a "paper tiger" like we are saying here, nothing to be concerned with.



    The 100,000 should have been dollars not Euro's. Considering the Z06 in the US sells for around $65,000 how do you account for the difference? If anything the Z06 should be cheaper given the exchange rate.

    I recognize there is a bias against US cars in Europe. We have known that for a very long time. As a matter of fact there are biases within countries in Europe. Just look at Germany. Buying an Italian car by a German citizen is disapproved in Germany.

    Old prejudices die hard.

    BTW Van Saurma's test if he ever gets one will not be determintive in my view. He also has biases and I have absolutely no confidence in his ability to drive a front engine monster like the Z06.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    686992 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    320501 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 12/7/22 4:53 PM
    Porker
    217961 1266
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 12/4/22 12:10 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    203278 439
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    186444 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    129648 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/30/22 2:30 PM
    GnilM
    57673 68
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    521664 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    477291 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/27/22 2:46 AM
    WhoopsyM
    473540 3785
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    230633 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/7/22 5:03 PM
    WhoopsyM
    230158 1468
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    200173 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    196367 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/7/22 10:22 PM
    CGX car nut
    190993 1866
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    190617 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    163667 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    160984 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    157078 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    143618 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    140527 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    138602 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    137854 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    136421 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 12/6/22 8:32 PM
    CGX car nut
    127754 1561
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    107459 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    106523 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    104249 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    79337 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31670 438
    172 items found, displaying 1 to 30.