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    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    ^^^BINGO! 

    As for the girl, judging by the severity of the crash, a simple lap belt looks like it probably gave up since the whole seat and attachment points on the body were ripped out the car. 

    A 5-point harness or at least double shoudler belts were needed in that situation.


    --
    ...the only thing stopping you, is you!

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    I was not aware Lewis was drinking. Even so, unless this was a prearranged race, it does not make sense. Why race a car almost 30 years older? What possible thrill can one get beating a dinosaur?Smiley

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    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    nberry:
    I was not aware Lewis was drinking. Even so, unless this was a prearranged race, it does not make sense. Why race a car almost 30 years older? What possible thrill can one get beating a dinosaur?Smiley

    --

     

    You're right, Nick.  There's so far, no indication that Lewis was drinking.

            


    --


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    nberry:
     What possible thrill can one get beating a dinosaur?Smiley

    I would get a thrill beating you in a race Smiley

     

    Looking at the accident pics, it appears they were driving pretty fast. Since the Porsche came in contact with the Ferrari, it was a pretty close race. Also, I doubt at 2am, Lewis said to himself, oh, theres a 1977 Porsche...

     


            


    --
    05' C4S

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:

    A couple of questions come to mind.

    Why would he want to race a 1977 Porsche?Smiley

    Answer:  Alcohol + Testosterone + Newport Beach + Female Passenger + 2AM + Jamboree Road + Stupidity


    --

     


    Perfect answer. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    I don't know... a 1977 Turbo would do 0-60 in 4.9 and had a top speed of 156mph from the factory. That's assuming it wasn't modified. That would pretty formidable in a street setting I think.

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:

    A couple of questions come to mind.

    Why would he want to race a 1977 Porsche?Smiley

    Answer:  Alcohol + Testosterone + Newport Beach + Female Passenger + 2AM + Jamboree Road + Stupidity


    --

     

    I am not familiar obviously with Newport Beach and  Jamboree Road. What is their significance in this accident?


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    reginos:
    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:

    A couple of questions come to mind.

    Why would he want to race a 1977 Porsche?Smiley

    Answer:  Alcohol + Testosterone + Newport Beach + Female Passenger + 2AM + Jamboree Road + Stupidity

     


    --

     

    I am not familiar obviously with Newport Beach and  Jamboree Road. What is their significance in this accident?

     


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts
    Newport Beach is a show-off, excessive, mine's bigger than yours, type of city.  It is the richest city in Orange County and also the area attracts young attractive women who look for rich guys.  So there is quite a bit of 'attitude'.  Sometimes, too much.  Jamboree Road and MacArthur Blvd, which parallels each other, are major, wide, thoroughfares between the beach and the freeway and is built for speed.  There are slight curves and ascents and descents which invite spirited driving. 

            


    --

     


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Thanks! All clear now.
    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:
    In California, if a person is injured as a result of a speeding contest (street racing) they can be charged with a felony. Since this person died, the prosecutor will be charging the Porsche driver with involuntary manslaughter which can lead to several years in jail.
    --

    In this case, the person who died (in the Ferrari) probably voluntarily took part in the race.  This person didn't have to engage.  Why should the person in the other car (the Porsche) be charged for manslaughter of this Ferrari driver? Smiley

    In other words, if you engage, you should take responsibility for your actions also, whether it's an innocent bystander, or your own life.


    Because we live in a phucked up pussy society and world ruined by lawyers  whether in legislating or in bar practice.

    There used to be a show called Sliders where the characters moved to parallel Earths every episode that had different value systems and circumstances, its too bad we can't slide to one where there is a little more accountability.

    STOP the blame game. TAKE responsibility for your own actions. AND stop trying to legislate the fun out of life.

    First off highways outside of built-up areas should have higher speed limits.

    These people as Alan says engaged in some fun that always has dangerous possibilities. The f-car occupants paid the price for phucking up. END OF STORY!  No one else should have to pay for that driver deciding to take part in a dangerous game.

    The only time there should be a prosecution is when an innocent bystander gets hurt by some incompetent nitwit doing an activity in an area not designed for it. and The passengers are not innocent bystanders unless they were screamng stop the whole time.

    Someone walking along a city street on the sidewalk is an innocent bystander, someone walking on a highway is not.

    This is so like the mortgage mess and bail-outs, no one is responsible for their own actions.Smiley


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Maybe the driver voluntarily took part in the race, nevertheless, so did the Porsche driver.

    If it turns out there was a collision before the accident, this might very well be "involuntary manslaughter". A judge has to make that decision, but it doesn't sound to far fetched for me.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    First off judges are referees between lawyers, juries are the finders of the facts.

    If you don't know that you don't know society.

    Eunice you missed the whole point, both drivers voluntarily engaged in a race of some sort, UNLESS it was premeditated to make the fcar crash before the start of the activity it is no ones fault.  Too many variables.

    No charges PERIOD.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Are fricken serious?Smiley

    Your pulling our leg.Smiley
     

    Your much too smart to believe society doesn't have a right to prevent this behavior by punishing those that participate in these actions. Racing on public streets often is more hazards to the people not engaged in the race than to the participants.Smiley

     


    --

     


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Speed limits prevent this don't they nick?

    Where did I say it's OK to race on a city street.

    I just said there is no call for lawyers after the fact that these people took their chances and some lost. 

    Too many lawyers, too much litigation, always going after the soft targets. 


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Reread your intitial post. You implied that it was a contest between consenting adults and they must accept the consequences without society being involved. Clearly your intent was to say society has no interest in the matter. You and I know that is horse manure.

    Racing on city streets is a very dangerous activity to public safety.

    Lawyers get involved because people do stupid things. We profit from ignorance.

    I will agree there are TOO many lawyers.Smiley


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    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Nick, you have always had trouble with laying blame on the correct party.

    GWB is in crawford TX today and the US army is pulling out of Iraq, but as we speak some misguided fool in Iraq is right now strapping explosives to his/her body to kill innocent people and yet you would blame bush in Texas for that.

    The expired fcar driver took on all blame for his own demise the second he floored the gas pedal in that race. It was his decision, not the porsche drivers.

    NO NEED for any lawyers if there was no intentional mis-deed or pre-meditation of criminal intent.

    .

    .

    .

    Racing on city streets is already covered under speed limits and reckless driving statutes. And I would not do it, nor would I be out at 2 AM. 

    But the porsche driver though giulty of those infractions and maybe DWI is NOT guilty of the fcar drivers death.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    nberry:

    Reread your intitial post. You implied that it was a contest between consenting adults and they must accept the consequences without society being involved. Clearly your intent was to say society has no interest in the matter. You and I know that is horse manure.

    Racing on city streets is a very dangerous activity to public safety.

    Lawyers get involved because people do stupid things. We profit from ignorance.

    I will agree there are TOO many lawyers.Smiley


    --

     

    The point is, this was between two consenting adults.  Therefore, the Porsche driver should just be charged with street racing and DUI.  He shouldn't be responsible for the death of the Ferrari driver because they BOTH took part in an illegal activity, which is illegal because it is dangerous.  The minute they engaged in street racing, they essentially said "screw it".  If there were innocent people involved, then, yes, whoever was at fault, should be responsible.  If not, they should be responsible for their own actions and accept it.        
    --

     


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    FWIW, most states have what is known as the felony-murder rule. If your involved in a commission of a felony and someone is killed (including an accomplice) your guilty of murder. Nothing new here.

    Regarding Iraq, none of this would be happening "BUT FOR" Bush's invasion. You are unable to blame the responsible party.Smiley

     


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    nberry:

    FWIW, most states have what is known as the felony-murder rule. If your involved in a commission of a felony and someone is killed (including an accomplice) your guilty of murder. Nothing new here.

    Regarding Iraq, none of this would be happening "BUT FOR" Bush's invasion. You are unable to blame the responsible party.Smiley

     

    The rule is a good tool to make sure that the other party involved gets the maximum penalty.  I have no sympathy or condone the Porsche driver's actions.  Off the record, the Ferrari driver has to take some responsibility for his actions, if he did engage in street racing and was not just trying to avoid the Porsche driver.  Unfortunately, he's dead, so responsibility now involves his and the Porsche driver's estate.  Do I want to see the Porsche driver sentenced appropriately?  Yes.  Do I think that the Porsche driver owes his estate any damages?  No.

    [Removing Iraq discussion because it's off-topic]

            


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    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    racerx:

    First off judges are referees between lawyers, juries are the finders of the facts.

     

     

    We don't have juries here in Germany, sorry, my mistake.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    Eunice:
    racerx:

    First off judges are referees between lawyers, juries are the finders of the facts.

    We don't have juries here in Germany, sorry, my mistake.


            Could you expand on that, please?

    I am mot familiar with German jp, are you saying that a judge determines guilt or innocence in a criminal trial in Germany?Smiley Smiley





    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    nberry:

    FWIW, most states have what is known as the felony-murder rule. If your involved in a commission of a felony and someone is killed (including an accomplice) your guilty of murder. Nothing new here.

    Regarding Iraq, none of this would be happening "BUT FOR" Bush's invasion. You are unable to blame the responsible party.Smiley


            felony to me means intentional act with criminal designs- robbery etc....  not getting a thrill in a sports car. again over legislation

    Lets blame adam & eve for the local 7-11 hold-up tonite.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    racerx:
    Eunice:
    racerx:

    First off judges are referees between lawyers, juries are the finders of the facts.

    We don't have juries here in Germany, sorry, my mistake.


            Could you expand on that, please?

    I am mot familiar with German jp, are you saying that a judge determines guilt or innocence in a criminal trial in Germany?Smiley Smiley





    Yes that's the case. Public prosecutor commands over the investigation (e.g. the police), presents the evidence to the court. Defendant presents his evidence and the judge determines guilty or not, and then decides over the punishment.

    The judge has to follow the written law, there's no such thing as "common law" here, and therefore no jury.

    I am not a lawyer, maybe others in this forum will know more :)


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    I agree with most of what RacerX and SoCalAlan said, but if the porsche hit/made contact with the ferrari, causing the ferrari to lose control, then crash, isn't the porsche driver responsible for the ferrari drivers death? I can understand that if the ferrari guy lost control on his own, or was the one who hit the porsche first, that he should be soley responsible for his own demise, not the porsche driver.
    --
    05' C4S

    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:
    In California, if a person is injured as a result of a speeding contest (street racing) they can be charged with a felony. Since this person died, the prosecutor will be charging the Porsche driver with involuntary manslaughter which can lead to several years in jail.
    --

    In this case, the person who died (in the Ferrari) probably voluntarily took part in the race.  This person didn't have to engage.  Why should the person in the other car (the Porsche) be charged for manslaughter of this Ferrari driver? Smiley


    --


    It's like if you robbed a store with someone & your accomplice was shot dead during the robbery by police you can get slapped w/ a manslaughter charge.  

    If you're engaging in criminal behavior & your accomplice dies as a result you can be held responsible. 


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    JP - how would you ever determine that?  impossible. People can't even agree in NFL games on challenged call replays with 5 different camera angles. Plus the road could have curved sharply or sand on the porsche lane could have caused lack of traction.    Nope the moment they both made the decision to race there - a bad decision - they both were responsible for their own outcome.

    Eunice - that is amazing to me, and probably most non-germans used to the jury system.   Having 1 human determine guilt or innoncence is just preposterous.  What if he had a bad night, didn't like your looks, is incompetent, crooked ..............  I was not aware of that and am  amazed that Germany has such a justice system. Kind of a throwback to the feudal days, don't you think?


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    STRADALE:
    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:
    In California, if a person is injured as a result of a speeding contest (street racing) they can be charged with a felony. Since this person died, the prosecutor will be charging the Porsche driver with involuntary manslaughter which can lead to several years in jail.
    --

    In this case, the person who died (in the Ferrari) probably voluntarily took part in the race.  This person didn't have to engage.  Why should the person in the other car (the Porsche) be charged for manslaughter of this Ferrari driver? Smiley


    --


    It's like if you robbed a store with someone & your accomplice was shot dead during the robbery by police you can get a manslaughter charge.  


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



            We all understand the legal "gotcha" side of it stradale, but it does not make any common sense. It's just the lawyers in the legislature wanting to play GOD.

    Everyone can agree with getting robbers who set out to commit a premeditated criminal offense with violence as a tool. But here we have an act and actors who did not plan or premeditate anything and with no criminal intent and no violence ever imagined.

    It is an accident. no intended foul. Sure it may happen at high speeds and the likelihood of trouble goes up BUT HERE IS THE KEY- this is why we all want the autobahn to exist. We don't want all the excitement, freedom taken away by control freaks in the legislature. Anyone here who has driven very fast knows the danger BUT we want to experience that on occasion. The legislature is a bunch of busybodies that ought to shut the phuck up more.


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    I think this (felony-murder rule applied to driving on the street) is a very dangerous slippery slope.  What if you happen to "floor it" at a stoplight and someone decides to keep up with you and for some reason, THEY lose control.  Are you looking at manslaughter?  But I guess that's what juries are for.

    I don't know all the details of what happened on Jamboree Rd that early morning.  The Porsche driver at a minimum should be charged for DUI and leaving the scene.  But unless he caused the Ferrari driver to crash, the Ferrari driver should be responsible for the death of himself and the injuries to the women riding with him.


    --

     


    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    racerx:
    STRADALE:
    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:
    In California, if a person is injured as a result of a speeding contest (street racing) they can be charged with a felony. Since this person died, the prosecutor will be charging the Porsche driver with involuntary manslaughter which can lead to several years in jail.
    --

    In this case, the person who died (in the Ferrari) probably voluntarily took part in the race.  This person didn't have to engage.  Why should the person in the other car (the Porsche) be charged for manslaughter of this Ferrari driver? Smiley


    --


    It's like if you robbed a store with someone & your accomplice was shot dead during the robbery by police you can get a manslaughter charge.  


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



            We all understand the legal "gotcha" side of it stradale, but it does not make any common sense. It's just the lawyers in the legislature wanting to play GOD.

    Everyone can agree with getting robbers who set out to commit a premeditated criminal offense with violence as a tool. But here we have an act and actors who did not plan or premeditate anything and with no criminal intent and no violence ever imagined.

    It is an accident. no intended foul. Sure it may happen at high speeds and the likelihood of trouble goes up BUT HERE IS THE KEY- this is why we all want the autobahn to exist. We don't want all the excitement, freedom taken away by control freaks in the legislature. Anyone here who has driven very fast knows the danger BUT we want to experience that on occasion. The legislature is a bunch of busybodies that ought to shut the phuck up more.


    But there are places (tracks) for what you describe.

    I shouldnt have used the word "robbery". The thing I was describing above doesnt mean "violence" has to play a part, even if you break into a store in the middle of the night to comit a burglary without any violent intentions if someone dies while you're comitting that crime even if you didnt kill the person, you could be in the next room,  you can be charged with manslaughter. 

    imho it does make sense. Hate to say it because like anyone here I'm a car nut too & have been there but I think the other person that was racing needs to take responsibility for what happened. Did he mean for someone to get killed, no but there has to be some sort of culpability for when people break the law & something like this happens. If you have 2 people "where there's no intention to kill or cause serious injury, but death is due to recklessness" than I think it's makes "common sense" that the person is charged with vehicular manslaughter which is different that other manslaughters. I think it makes sense to charge the other guy racing.

    Found this:

    "Vehicular or intoxication manslaughter

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter



    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



    Re: MMA Tapout Founder Dead After Crashing His Ferrari

    SoCal Alan:

    I think this (felony-murder rule applied to driving on the street) is a very dangerous slippery slope.  What if you happen to "floor it" at a stoplight and someone decides to keep up with you and for some reason, THEY lose control.  Are you looking at manslaughter?  But I guess that's what juries are for.

    I don't know all the details of what happened on Jamboree Rd that early morning.  The Porsche driver at a minimum should be charged for DUI and leaving the scene.  But unless he caused the Ferrari driver to crash, the Ferrari driver should be responsible for the death of himself and the injuries to the women riding with him.


    --


    But under those circumstances you provided you werent racing so there wouldnt be any crime.  I think from reports it was pretty obvious they were racing. If it wasnt very obvious then I would guess they wouldnt have charged him w/ veh. manslaughter.

    I agree it's a thin  line. 

    It's not a felony or a murder. Vehicular manslaughter is a misdemeanor.

    They did charge him w/ Vehicular manslaughter, right?  Because in CA if malice/gross negligence is found the guy can be charged with involuntary manslaughter /second degree murder


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley FLHTCSE,  93 Harley FLSTN



     
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