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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    kudryavchik:

    Dear Italo, first I dont read personally disrespectful and aggressive messages, I dont waste a time on it. Second, I dont like talking with fans, its a waste of time too. I dont need to read it, my knowledge in motorsport is known in my community (simply yesterday my team won the motorsport history competition among 40 teams). If you want to communicate, I will with the great pleasure without the offensive notes, otherwise sorry.

    For me Ham, as Vet nowhere near to some previous champs I have listed before. Both are great, however... there are some points should be noted (these are important for me)

    1. I dont like when sport, especially the motorsport that I love is used as a scene for politics (political position doesnt matter)

    2. Currently F1 consists of factory teams and satellites that use the engine from top dogs (manufacturers) making the customers dependable from manufacturers - as from engineering point of view and competition wise. No matter how great are the engineers, fe in Alfa (Sauber), they will never be able to compete with Ferrari. History has known some cases when not so rich customers were able to fight with top teams. Man, Ferrari made its history that way before collab with FIAT

    3. Racing, especially F1 became too sterile, with lots of protocols. Its simply dilute the personality attractiveness. Simply look on how real man raced before, even in MSC era. In recent history I love 919 evo record attempts. Its more marketing, but its was crazy. Simply wow.

    This is where it shows you are just a superficial fan and not a in depth observer of the sport.

    Hamilton is the most successful and greatest of all F1 drivers, there is no if/but there, the record speaks for themselves. With that came the spotlight and he used that platform to advertise what he believed in. I don't agree with that but liking someone as a F1 driver and their political view is two distinctly different thing and can coexists. 

    I don't agree with Verstappen's driving standard but doesn't mean I don't like/admire his skill sets. Again, these can co-exists. Him driving dirty doesn't mean he doesn't have amazing driving skills. 

    F1 HAS ALWAYS been a constructor first championship. The drivers are secondary. You see teams replacing drivers mid season to continue the fight all the time. When is the last time you see a top driver fire his team mid season to try and find a team whose cars can actually finish a race to score more points? 

    Watching top factory teams duke it out is the attraction. In yester-years privateer teams have great success also, they build their own chassis and source engines from bigger manufacturers, same formula now. Yes big teams with giant budget can out spend privateers, but that's what the cost cap is for, leveling the playing field some what. Give it a few years and see. Privateers like McLaren is on pace to do well in the coming years. Williams however will be a bit behind. 

    Does Red Bull counts as a 'Privateer'? Up until this year, yes. By the strict definition they have been racing as a privateer, but with an enormous budget. They build their own chassis but source engines from Renault and then Honda. Starting next year everything will be in house and they would lose their privateer status. 

    F1 is a structured program. Every team, driver, that signed up knew all the rules in the first place. Rules and rules period. If one doesn't like them then don't join, simple as that. They can start their own outlaw series where there is no rules. And rules don't restrict personalities, look at Kimi, look at Vettel, both are extremely entertaining. You just don't like your driver Max keep breaking the rules and get penalized. You wanted him to continue driving outside the rules to gain an advantage, well the world doesn't work that way, you can't have one set of rules for one driver then another set for the other 19. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    kudryavchik:

    Dear Italo, first I dont read personally disrespectful and aggressive messages, I dont waste a time on it. Second, I dont like talking with fans, its a waste of time too. I dont need to read it, my knowledge in motorsport is known in my community (simply yesterday my team won the motorsport history competition among 40 teams). If you want to communicate, I will with the great pleasure without the offensive notes, otherwise sorry.

    For me Ham, as Vet nowhere near to some previous champs I have listed before. Both are great, however... there are some points should be noted (these are important for me)

    1. I dont like when sport, especially the motorsport that I love is used as a scene for politics (political position doesnt matter)

    2. Currently F1 consists of factory teams and satellites that use the engine from top dogs (manufacturers) making the customers dependable from manufacturers - as from engineering point of view and competition wise. No matter how great are the engineers, fe in Alfa (Sauber), they will never be able to compete with Ferrari. History has known some cases when not so rich customers were able to fight with top teams. Man, Ferrari made its history that way before collab with FIAT

    3. Racing, especially F1 became too sterile, with lots of protocols. Its simply dilute the personality attractiveness. Simply look on how real man raced before, even in MSC era. In recent history I love 919 evo record attempts. Its more marketing, but its was crazy. Simply wow.

    This is where it shows you are just a superficial fan and not a in depth observer of the sport.

    Hamilton is the most successful and greatest of all F1 drivers, there is no if/but there, the record speaks for themselves. With that came the spotlight and he used that platform to advertise what he believed in. I don't agree with that but liking someone as a F1 driver and their political view is two distinctly different thing and can coexists. 

    I don't agree with Verstappen's driving standard but doesn't mean I don't like/admire his skill sets. Again, these can co-exists. Him driving dirty doesn't mean he doesn't have amazing driving skills. 

    F1 HAS ALWAYS been a constructor first championship. The drivers are secondary. You see teams replacing drivers mid season to continue the fight all the time. When is the last time you see a top driver fire his team mid season to try and find a team whose cars can actually finish a race to score more points? 

    Watching top factory teams duke it out is the attraction. In yester-years privateer teams have great success also, they build their own chassis and source engines from bigger manufacturers, same formula now. Yes big teams with giant budget can out spend privateers, but that's what the cost cap is for, leveling the playing field some what. Give it a few years and see. Privateers like McLaren is on pace to do well in the coming years. Williams however will be a bit behind. 

    Does Red Bull counts as a 'Privateer'? Up until this year, yes. By the strict definition they have been racing as a privateer, but with an enormous budget. They build their own chassis but source engines from Renault and then Honda. Starting next year everything will be in house and they would lose their privateer status. 

    F1 is a structured program. Every team, driver, that signed up knew all the rules in the first place. Rules and rules period. If one doesn't like them then don't join, simple as that. They can start their own outlaw series where there is no rules. And rules don't restrict personalities, look at Kimi, look at Vettel, both are extremely entertaining. You just don't like your driver Max keep breaking the rules and get penalized. You wanted him to continue driving outside the rules to gain an advantage, well the world doesn't work that way, you can't have one set of rules for one driver then another set for the other 19. 

     

    Ok, lets go step by step. However it starts to be dull to me.

    1. Statistically Ham has the most wins and cups - fact. Does it make him the greatest? No. Best? Maybe among the current driver line up yes, but its arguable. Rosberg won ham in 2016)) Also he has the best car from the company that gained from engine regulations. I will never be tired to repeat, I dont know how merc made the best concept from the beginning, with split turbo and jet injection (when nobody even thought about it. I am 100% sure merc started to work on engine at least half a year and maybe a year earlier than others). So ham had easy 2014, 2015, its a fact. Also lets not forget, there is more races a year now, so it is simplier to get more wins and quali poles on dominating car. Also there is the different points system now. 

    2. F1 has ALWAYS BEEN pilot champ. Simply look when the drivers cup and constructors cup appeared. Constructors and manufacturers champ is WEC and its predecessors

    3. RB was not the private team. Face it real, it was renault backed team, where renault made the engines for rb specs and rb made the gearbox housing themselves (with xtrac), so they had their own suspension arm mountings. Formally rb is not a manufacturer, but in fact it is in the same position. On Mclaren - wait and see when they start (if it happens) to be the competition to merc)))) engine contract will be finished in 1 day))) Seidl is not a fool, and he clearly understands the the merc engine is needed to be 2nd, but not 1st. To be 1st you need your own engine (or porsche/audi one). Merc engine is a temporary solution to be competitive, but not winning.

    4. I dont understand why did you make me Max fan))) but ok. Vet - is a joke and his driving is joke . Kimi - great pilot, but lets make it clear - he raced in alfa for fun. Age.

    P.S. In previous post i was a guy who knows nothing about motorsport, now I am a Max fan. Interesting what will be nextSmiley


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Christmas card from Bernie. Ahahaha, great sense of humor only thing he has forgotten - fight for ecology

    Screenshot_20211224-090357_Chrome.jpg


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    I take it you’ve never experienced discrimination. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Enmanuel:

    I take it you’ve never experienced discrimination. 

    SmileySmileySmiley first we need to save whales


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Enmanuel:

    I take it you’ve never experienced discrimination. 

    Dear Emanuel, not all of our members have anything like emotional intelligence. They are usually not the brightest candles on the Christmas tree


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Yes, the brightest ones are those who call dying people the rule from Darwin theory (from other topic). If those are "candles" I'd prefer to have nothing common with those 

    P.s. to everyone - sorry for offtopic


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    So getting back to the recent discussion about the greatest drivers of all time: I do ponder whether some of our favorites from the past would fare so well in a modern F1 car regardless of their bravado in their career and if they were still in their prime condition; would they actually handle the power and grip of the modern car as well as today's drivers?

    I rather think it is a flight of fancy and romanticism for the past to think they could fare very well. I suspect many simply would not have the physical conditioning to handle the cornering forces of today's cars. Add to that the higher speeds requiring faster reaction times and pretty soon I have to believe that yes they were great compared to their contemporaries of the time; but today's drivers are the best of all time.

    Oh wait, not of all time; there are still better yet to come!


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Gladstone:

    So getting back to the recent discussion about the greatest drivers of all time: I do ponder whether some of our favorites from the past would fare so well in a modern F1 car regardless of their bravado in their career and if they were still in their prime condition; would they actually handle the power and grip of the modern car as well as today's drivers?

    I rather think it is a flight of fancy and romanticism for the past to think they could fare very well. I suspect many simply would not have the physical conditioning to handle the cornering forces of today's cars. Add to that the higher speeds requiring faster reaction times and pretty soon I have to believe that yes they were great compared to their contemporaries of the time; but today's drivers are the best of all time.

    Oh wait, not of all time; there are still better yet to come!

    You are right in certain points. Drivers from the past and from the present are incomparable. Different cars, different tools, different approaches. Thats why I have written previously about the evolution of sport and that it is different kind of sport at all depending on its state in evolution. But you cant say better or worse - different. Old guys couldnt handle new cars and the new guys couldnt handle 1937 au type c or lotus 79 or brabham bt52 the same way as oldies could (moreover drivers from 80s couldnt handle cars from 50s and vice versa). They are trained differently, other skills. In the past the certain amount of sliding gave you an advantage (lower downforce, worse mechanical grip), today sliding is the time loss. Simple example.

    However when I talked about old guys I compare them from personality point of view, their background, charisma, dedication, bravery and... being man, not girls. That was purer racing (lets be fair, politics was there always)

    P.s. how many times did Villeneuve and Arnoux have broken the modern rules in Dijon? If modern rules dont allow such racing I'd watch old records.
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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    F1 races are sprint races. Personally, I admire endurance racers because of the long stints, variable weather conditions, night driving, managing traffic from slower cars and other difficulties. Cars also have to be more durable and robust.

    In F1 however, mistakes cannot be rectified whereas in Endurance racing a car could stay in the pits to be fixed, go out catch up and win.

    Nevertheless, drivers of bygone eras would also cope with today's circumstances because given their talent they would adjust to the demands of today's sport through physical training, nutrition, healthier lifestyle, psychological guidance and whatever else is required.

    Similarly if you see old sportsmen like Michel Platini or Bjorn Borg playing their respective sports they appear they are playing in slow motion compared to the Ronaldos and the Nadals of today. But still their talent would also shine today but the present day conditioning would be required and be available to them.

    Another thought is that these previous era drivers were not scrutinized and analysed so much by the Press and of course internet did not exist and detailed video footage was rare. Fans could not have a complete view about them, like now. What people knew was more or less spasmodic and circumstantial. Probably, these "mythical"  people were not so great on and off track like we think today, after all.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Yes, I also like Le Mans, Targa Florio and 24h Nurburgring more. Have a collection of all Le Mans races and reviews. Also Le Mans machinery is many ways more advanced and complicated than F1 (except the times when Le Mans consisted purely from privateers or old proto and gt cars) 


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    sportcars-history.com


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Drag Race: Formula E vs WRC vs Formula One... in the wet! | Top Gear Christmas Special | Top Gear

    I think this is a W11 with black livery.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    The fastest accelerating car from modern f1 was 2019 ferrari when they cheated with fuel consumption, especially in the range above 200kmh


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    kudryavchik:
     

    1. Statistically Ham has the most wins and cups - fact. Does it make him the greatest? No. Best? Maybe among the current driver line up yes, but its arguable. Rosberg won ham in 2016)) Also he has the best car from the company that gained from engine regulations. I will never be tired to repeat, I dont know how merc made the best concept from the beginning, with split turbo and jet injection (when nobody even thought about it. I am 100% sure merc started to work on engine at least half a year and maybe a year earlier than others). So ham had easy 2014, 2015, its a fact. Also lets not forget, there is more races a year now, so it is simplier to get more wins and quali poles on dominating car. Also there is the different points system now. 

    No difference than the Schumacher years, or Vettel years, or even Alonso with his back to back with Renault, when they had the tuned mass damper. The best driver on the dominating car wins. 

    2. F1 has ALWAYS BEEN pilot champ. Simply look when the drivers cup and constructors cup appeared. Constructors and manufacturers champ is WEC and its predecessors

    You might be the only one that thinks that way bud.

    Did Formula 1 start by a bunch of race car drivers got together and say lets find some manufacturers to make cars for us? Or a bunch of race car makers got together and find some racers to fill in their cars?  It's the later. Why else would constructors find replacement drivers to continue to earn points if their drivers are hurt, died, or otherwise unavailable? And those points still count towards the overall championship?

    3. RB was not the private team. Face it real, it was renault backed team, where renault made the engines for rb specs and rb made the gearbox housing themselves (with xtrac), so they had their own suspension arm mountings. Formally rb is not a manufacturer, but in fact it is in the same position. On Mclaren - wait and see when they start (if it happens) to be the competition to merc)))) engine contract will be finished in 1 day))) Seidl is not a fool, and he clearly understands the the merc engine is needed to be 2nd, but not 1st. To be 1st you need your own engine (or porsche/audi one). Merc engine is a temporary solution to be competitive, but not winning.

    This is where you completely lost it. You do realize Renault has their own FACTORY TEAM when Red Bull was getting Renault engines right? Renault isn't a deep pocket car maker, why would they back another team other than their own factory effort? Red Bull bought the Ford backed Stewart Racing way back then, it first ran the Ford for one year, then a Ferrari engine the next, before they got the Renault engine deal. They are a privateer team by all definitions, making their own chassis while sourcing engines from someone else. They aren't a Frank Williams or a Sauber or McLaren type privateer team which replies heavily on sponsor money as they are the one that brings the money via the Red Bull brand, but still works the same way. Come 2022 Red Bull will be doing their own engine, so they would lose their privateer status and join the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault/Alpine as a factory team. 

    4. I dont understand why did you make me Max fan))) but ok. Vet - is a joke and his driving is joke . Kimi - great pilot, but lets make it clear - he raced in alfa for fun. Age.

    Max is exactly like Vettel in his early years at Red Bull. Vettel still can drive, yip ou drop him into Max's Red Bull right now, he may not be ultimately as fast as Max, but he can still perform impressively. Plus, you were talking about 'personality', I immediately gives you 2 interesting one. You forgot Vettel's press conferences? He is hyper entertaining, so is Kimi's one word replies. No one else on grid right now gives better interviews than these 2, maybe Norris. Max has this permanent-rage look during press conferences and interviews, it's like he thinks everyone is just wasting his time. Hamilton is all business like without fun. 

    P.S. In previous post i was a guy who knows nothing about motorsport, now I am a Max fan. Interesting what will be nextSmiley

     

    You do realize that sentence isn't mutually exclusive right? Like millions out there, one can be a Max fan without knowing much if at all on motorsport. The same ones week in and week out keep shouting Max's driving standard is fine, it's the rules that's wrong. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Arghhh. I will respond Whoopsy, but later)))


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

     



    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Russell and Albon having some fun.


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    kudryavchik:
     

    1. Statistically Ham has the most wins and cups - fact. Does it make him the greatest? No. Best? Maybe among the current driver line up yes, but its arguable. Rosberg won ham in 2016)) Also he has the best car from the company that gained from engine regulations. I will never be tired to repeat, I dont know how merc made the best concept from the beginning, with split turbo and jet injection (when nobody even thought about it. I am 100% sure merc started to work on engine at least half a year and maybe a year earlier than others). So ham had easy 2014, 2015, its a fact. Also lets not forget, there is more races a year now, so it is simplier to get more wins and quali poles on dominating car. Also there is the different points system now. 

    No difference than the Schumacher years, or Vettel years, or even Alonso with his back to back with Renault, when they had the tuned mass damper. The best driver on the dominating car wins. 

    2. F1 has ALWAYS BEEN pilot champ. Simply look when the drivers cup and constructors cup appeared. Constructors and manufacturers champ is WEC and its predecessors

    You might be the only one that thinks that way bud.

    Did Formula 1 start by a bunch of race car drivers got together and say lets find some manufacturers to make cars for us? Or a bunch of race car makers got together and find some racers to fill in their cars?  It's the later. Why else would constructors find replacement drivers to continue to earn points if their drivers are hurt, died, or otherwise unavailable? And those points still count towards the overall championship?

    3. RB was not the private team. Face it real, it was renault backed team, where renault made the engines for rb specs and rb made the gearbox housing themselves (with xtrac), so they had their own suspension arm mountings. Formally rb is not a manufacturer, but in fact it is in the same position. On Mclaren - wait and see when they start (if it happens) to be the competition to merc)))) engine contract will be finished in 1 day))) Seidl is not a fool, and he clearly understands the the merc engine is needed to be 2nd, but not 1st. To be 1st you need your own engine (or porsche/audi one). Merc engine is a temporary solution to be competitive, but not winning.

    This is where you completely lost it. You do realize Renault has their own FACTORY TEAM when Red Bull was getting Renault engines right? Renault isn't a deep pocket car maker, why would they back another team other than their own factory effort? Red Bull bought the Ford backed Stewart Racing way back then, it first ran the Ford for one year, then a Ferrari engine the next, before they got the Renault engine deal. They are a privateer team by all definitions, making their own chassis while sourcing engines from someone else. They aren't a Frank Williams or a Sauber or McLaren type privateer team which replies heavily on sponsor money as they are the one that brings the money via the Red Bull brand, but still works the same way. Come 2022 Red Bull will be doing their own engine, so they would lose their privateer status and join the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault/Alpine as a factory team. 

    4. I dont understand why did you make me Max fan))) but ok. Vet - is a joke and his driving is joke . Kimi - great pilot, but lets make it clear - he raced in alfa for fun. Age.

    Max is exactly like Vettel in his early years at Red Bull. Vettel still can drive, yip ou drop him into Max's Red Bull right now, he may not be ultimately as fast as Max, but he can still perform impressively. Plus, you were talking about 'personality', I immediately gives you 2 interesting one. You forgot Vettel's press conferences? He is hyper entertaining, so is Kimi's one word replies. No one else on grid right now gives better interviews than these 2, maybe Norris. Max has this permanent-rage look during press conferences and interviews, it's like he thinks everyone is just wasting his time. Hamilton is all business like without fun. 

    P.S. In previous post i was a guy who knows nothing about motorsport, now I am a Max fan. Interesting what will be nextSmiley

     

    You do realize that sentence isn't mutually exclusive right? Like millions out there, one can be a Max fan without knowing much if at all on motorsport. The same ones week in and week out keep shouting Max's driving standard is fine, it's the rules that's wrong. 

     

    Hello, I am back))

    No difference than the Schumacher years, or Vettel years, or even Alonso with his back to back with Renault, when they had the tuned mass damper. The best driver on the dominating car wins

    Not so easy here. Ferrari domination has started after the years of work under the same regulations, Renault 2 year success started in 2005 under old regulations (every year slight changes but the cars are mostly the same, in 2005 FIA introduced higher front wing to decrease front DF, but these are small changes) when Ferrari had the problem with the tyres and continued in 2006 with 2,4 engine. RB domination started in 2010, which had the same regs mostly as 2009. Merc domination however started with the new regulations and this domination was due to engine. Somehow merc has understood the regs better and introduced the solutions (TJI most important here as it gives great growth in comp ration) nobody in F1 worked before. TJI or, in F1 case so called active jet ignition is a quite complex thing that requires lots of development. There were the same developments in 2014  under the 919 project - like cassette gearbox and highest possible voltage, but it was different champ)) 

    You might be the only one that thinks that way bud.

    Did Formula 1 start by a bunch of race car drivers got together and say lets find some manufacturers to make cars for us? Or a bunch of race car makers got together and find some racers to fill in their cars?  It's the later. Why else would constructors find replacement drivers to continue to earn points if their drivers are hurt, died, or otherwise unavailable? And those points still count towards the overall championship?

    Ohh, 1947-s... Its difficult to say when F1 started its history. Some say 1947, some say 1950, some say late 60-s early 70-s, In 1947 there were the pilots and teams from Italy and England almost without factory support, racing old alfas (and some british shit) from late 30's. Garagistas. But what I know for certain is that the 1st was the pilot cup and constructors cup appeared in late 50's

    This is where you completely lost it. You do realize Renault has their own FACTORY TEAM when Red Bull was getting Renault engines right? Renault isn't a deep pocket car maker, why would they back another team other than their own factory effort? Red Bull bought the Ford backed Stewart Racing way back then, it first ran the Ford for one year, then a Ferrari engine the next, before they got the Renault engine deal. They are a privateer team by all definitions, making their own chassis while sourcing engines from someone else. They aren't a Frank Williams or a Sauber or McLaren type privateer team which replies heavily on sponsor money as they are the one that brings the money via the Red Bull brand, but still works the same way. Come 2022 Red Bull will be doing their own engine, so they would lose their privateer status and join the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault/Alpine as a factory team. 

    You see black and white and completely forgotten Infinity logos on RB)) When RB started its domination it was a Renault backed team with the Newey chassis. "Renault isn't a deep pocket car maker" - WTF!!!! Come on... these guys sells the most cars in the world))) If they weren't bothered with their factory team when Infinity Red Bull was winning it doesn't mean they don't have money)))

    Max is exactly like Vettel in his early years at Red Bull. Vettel still can drive, yip ou drop him into Max's Red Bull right now, he may not be ultimately as fast as Max, but he can still perform impressively. Plus, you were talking about 'personality', I immediately gives you 2 interesting one. You forgot Vettel's press conferences? He is hyper entertaining, so is Kimi's one word replies. No one else on grid right now gives better interviews than these 2, maybe Norris. Max has this permanent-rage look during press conferences and interviews, it's like he thinks everyone is just wasting his time. Hamilton is all business like without fun. 

    Sorry, everything is subjective here. Nothing to comment. What I can say Vet drives shitty now, where he is good - spinning.

    You do realize that sentence isn't mutually exclusive right? Like millions out there, one can be a Max fan without knowing much if at all on motorsport. The same ones week in and week out keep shouting Max's driving standard is fine, it's the rules that's wrong. 

    Rules are wrong, yes. Too much of them. So?

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    You really typed a really long post full of incoherent words.

    But seriously, Red Bull is a PRIVATEER team. Having an Infiniti logo doesn't equal to them being a factory backed team, as Renault has their own team competing against them. Just get it over with. You have way too much conspiracy ideas going on in your head dude. Renault sells the most cars? . I didn't know they are Toyota in disguise. That's a good one buddy. WHat's next from you? Alfa Romeo is a Ferrari factory team? Or how about Haas? Heck, Renault isn't close to being the car maker making the most money either. 

    Red Bull bought engines from Renault, they are suppose to have a Renault logo on them in the first place. But since Renault and Nissan is a combined entity, Renault asked Red Bull to use the Infiniti logo instead. There is nothing more to read into that. 

    And btw, did you know F1 had a big regulation change to their car designs back in 2017? someone else didn't ace that one hence why Mercedes continue to be the 'top dog'. But they aren't all conquering, Ferrari came close to dethroning them, but didn't quite happened. 

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:

    You really typed a really long post full of incoherent words.

    But seriously, Red Bull is a PRIVATEER team. Having an Infiniti logo doesn't equal to them being a factory backed team, as Renault has their own team competing against them. Just get it over with. You have way too much conspiracy ideas going on in your head dude. Renault sells the most cars? . I didn't know they are Toyota in disguise. That's a good one buddy. WHat's next from you? Alfa Romeo is a Ferrari factory team? Or how about Haas? Heck, Renault isn't close to being the car maker making the most money either. 

    Red Bull bought engines from Renault, they are suppose to have a Renault logo on them in the first place. But since Renault and Nissan is a combined entity, Renault asked Red Bull to use the Infiniti logo instead. There is nothing more to read into that. 

    And btw, did you know F1 had a big regulation change to their car designs back in 2017? someone else didn't ace that one hence why Mercedes continue to be the 'top dog'. But they aren't all conquering, Ferrari came close to dethroning them, but didn't quite happened. 

     

     

    Sorry Whoopsy, when the person says Renault has no deep pockets - for me its indicator that there is nothing to discuss. Uninteresting. Also, I dont get the analysis based on onboards, sorry. Went to read my racecar enginnering, race tech and japanese motorfan and race engine technology. Smiley i can share with you if you like something better than info from motorsport.com


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Renault has deep pockets, but they were NOT spending it on F1.   They were spending in the amounts of a midfield team.   They were spending about a 1/3 of Mercedes, RedBull and Ferrari prior to phase in of Budget Caps.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Renault has deep pockets, but they were NOT spending it on F1.   They were spending in the amounts of a midfield team.   They were spending about a 1/3 of Mercedes, RedBull and Ferrari prior to phase in of Budget Caps.

     

    This. 

    Laurence Stroll has "deep pockets" too as a multi billionaire, but he isn't spending nearly as much either at Aston. Which puts them at the not so deep pocket team in reality.

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Yes guys, I know. However, when you calculate the manufacturers who are the engine builders too, separate the team (and chassis budget) with the engine team budget. Both of these are lower in case of renault. The most spends by engine side were from merc and honda - about 200-250 mil a year. 


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    sportcars-history.com


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Youre kinda making our argument.   Mercedes and Ferrari spent 200-250 million on engines, then spent about the same on chassis.   So about 400 to 500 million whereas Renault spent about 250 or so in both chassis and engine.  Renault was NOT a deep pocket team. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    What for the deep pocket if the v8 engine regs were stable and rb anyway would make the nice chassis from own and infiniti sponsorship money;) "infiniti" money was a different source;) this approach started to fail in 2014 (when merc fucked everyone with their engine) but to say rb is pure private team is a joke. For a couple of years the same model with honda. Later on rb will be the pure manufacturer under f1 standards

    About budgets overall - it is a very hard to estimate digits, lots of ways to hide it behind other spends under pl. We can only operate what "experts" write. These "experts" are usually wrong.  

    P.s. whoopsy said about renault as not a deep pocket car maker:) to be fair i wonder who has deeper, vw or renault... trying to prove that ham is the best he was lost "a bit")) I will not criticise)))))))


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    sportcars-history.com


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Keep trying to convince yourself that Red Bull isn't a privateer team. Your conspiracy machine is running full steam dude.

    Red Bull never started off with Renault engines, did you know that? They have ran Ford, Ferrari, Renault, and now Honda engines with their own chassis. <--- That's the classic definition of a privateer team, sourcing engine from someone else to run on their own chassis. Next year they will be a full constructor works team with their own branded engine on their own chassis. 

    Will VAG become a deep pocket team like Mercedes or Ferrari when they finally enters F1? Nah. We will never know, as there will be a cost cap for every team. But would they if there aren't a cap? Nah, they will still spend like a Renault, or else they could have joined F1 a while ago before there is a cap.

    You are free to believe in your own ideas, just that no one else will be. 


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Severely doubt VAG would have been a heavy spender like Mercedes and Ferrari.   The core argument of introducing the budget cap in the first place was to attract new manufacturers (ie VAG) and retain existing (ie Renault) who would not (not could not) spend at the same levels as Mercedes and Ferrari.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Severely doubt VAG would have been a heavy spender like Mercedes and Ferrari.   The core argument of introducing the budget cap in the first place was to attract new manufacturers (ie VAG) and retain existing (ie Renault) who would not (not could not) spend at the same levels as Mercedes and Ferrari.

    Thuggy, i totally dont believe in budget cap. When you are large org, like car manufacturer, you are able to hide all excessive spends, simply under other spend articles under profit/loss statements. Even big 4 will not be able to to discover all your spends (not the source, but aim). I hardly believe FIA would spend on total financial audit for car manufacturers;)

    By the way, car manufacturers are very complicated guys. Spends is bs, spends is for mass media. Major thing - promote the tech regs the manufacturers want. If no way, manufacturers says - oh, its expensive))) in 2015 porsche or audi (somebody inside vag, i dont know for sure who) has spend 400 mil euro in 1 season on 919 or r18 project. For le mans and wec season;) regular spends > 300 mil each per year for 8 races))) its more expensive per race than f1))) to run a such complicated machinery as r18 and 919 costs a luck)) toyota spent 240 mil a year in 2018 and 2019 when there was no competition))) 

    The budget itself is not an issue to make the champ sustainable. ROI - thats what matter and wec fucked up or was fucked up, who knows))


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    sportcars-history.com

     


     
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