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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy, please keep it up, I always enjoy reading it.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Come on, I am not indispensable, and can be replaced. Before me it was easy who did it. 

    It started off more or less as an exercise to see if I can do it. And be impartial about it, only using the point of view from the rules and regulations side. But it would seems that's impossible as the rules get bent and whatnots to 'accommodate' 'exciting' 'racing'. Masi I am looking at you. 

    I mean if the FIA can't get their own rules straight, it became impossible for me to use the rule book as the yardstick to do commentary. On top, some had their passion overriding logic, opinions then mattered more than rules in the arguments that follows. 

    I really tried hard to be impartial, and as it happens more often than not last year, Hamilton was the one racing within the rules while Max was the one that goes around them, pointing that out earns heated arrows back from Max fans🤷🏻‍♂️ Was Hamilton a saint? Nah, I called him out too when he was the one doing the wrong, but mostly everything fell on deaf ears. 

    Did I diss Max? Nope. I correctly predicted he will win the WDC I think couple races in. His own stupidity is what made the fight so close at the end, and that he basically lost the title until Masi steps in and help. That was fact and not an opinion. 

    Maybe I will go watch more WEC races instead of F1, there they run races strictly by the book, they aren't doing a show for TV. Heck I had always enjoyed watching Le Mans more than any F1 races in person anyways. 24hrs vs 90 mins race.

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I never noticed that you had a favorite and even if you 100% champion just one team or driver it is always a welcome discussion here.  Hope you and Lewis keep playing the game. 
     Cheers and stay warm!


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy; announced your intention to no longer offer F1 commentary immediately following my post.

    Hope it wasn't something I said !  Smiley       (quite enjoyed your commentary btw)


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Gladstone:

    Whoopsy; announced your intention to no longer offer F1 commentary immediately following my post.

    Hope it wasn't something I said !  Smiley       (quite enjoyed your commentary btw)

     

    If the rule book aren't being followed anymore, there will no longer be a right/wrong, the framework is gone. How do one define a correct move vs an incorrect move? And why is that the same move is correct in one race and wrong the other?

    Everything thus become just opinions. Any everyone has their own. Maybe he who yell the loudest will win. Or the one that last man/car standing on track wins. Demolition Derby anyone?

    I based my commentary on the FIA rules, the very same rules that I had studied in order to get a race license, like every other racer. But those rules aren't important anymore, engaging TV audience is. I can't do commentary with that.

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Make a break, follow FIA WEC))


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    This sentiment I concur with.   The FIA investigation has a lot riding on it.  The super secret investigation and settlement they had with Ferrari on their power unit won’t fly this time.  We are all interested in sport, not spectacle.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Very good Sky report on this: F1 Show: One month on from AD. Worth watching.

    personally, i think Under the circumstances it was appropriate to let the lapped cars between LH and MV unlap themselves in the heat of the moment vs the alternative, but that is just my opinion….


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    The new radio commentary from all the drivers post the Latifi crash begging to be let past is interesting. Also i think LH was questioning his team’s call not to bring him in…

    anyway, ask 10 people, get 10 opinions….


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Btw what Maso probably should have done is let the lapped cars, all nine of them, pass the lap previously….


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    996FourEss:

    Very good Sky report on this: F1 Show: One month on from AD. Worth watching.

    personally, i think Under the circumstances it was appropriate to let the lapped cars between LH and MV unlap themselves in the heat of the moment vs the alternative, but that is just my opinion….

     

    The FIA's own rule book doesn't allow partial 'let through', it's all or nothing. It specifically says ANY. 

    The lapped cars between Sainz and Verstappen and also those behind Sainz are also 'lapped cars', they weren't allow to pass, yet they still belong to the 'any lapped cars' group. 

    There was no provisions in the rule book to say only the lapped cars between 1st and 2nd place are allowed through while everyone else stayed put in the 'last few laps of a race'.

    What Masi did made for a spectacular TV finish, but it's not legal under FIA's own rule book. We all heard Horner's argument on ANY doesn't equal ALL, but he is completely wrong as my second paragraph had stated. He needs to learn proper English even when he is English. 

    But if that kind of finish is what the FIA desire for an 'exciting' finish, they need to re-write their own rule book to allow that. 

    Mercedes made the correct decisions to not pit Hamilton for fresh tires based on the existing rules. They can see the clean up is a mess and with so few laps left, by the time the lapped cars are left through and the one more lap needed for the safety car to come back in, the race would have been finished. Under yellow flag. And Hamilton would have given up track position for nothing. Verstappen on the other hand had a freebie pit stop, they had a big enough gap to Sainz that even if they had pitted they would still come out in front of Sainz, and still be under safety car, no brainer stop. 

    Had the positions been reversed with Verstappen leading, Red Bull would have kept Verstappen out while Mercedes would have pitted Hamilton. Standard racing strategy. Neither team did anything wrong, they both made the correct move under the circumstances based on how the rule book is written.

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    What it comes down to me is F1 has to re-establish themselves as a sport first and entertainment second not the other way around.  I have very little desire to watch manufactured entertainment where the sport is sacrificed.  I get the Lewis fans and the Max fans arguing their respective positions but if you look further down the grid, the impact was felt all the way down the grid and not just the top two.

    What about the Ferrari/Carlos Sainz fans who did not benefit the same way as Max and have lapped drivers Daniel Ricciardo and Lance Stroll cleared out for them so he could have a run at Max and Lewis on last lap?  What would the last lap have been like if you had all three cars battling for the podium?

    What about the McLaren/Daniel Ricciardo fans, they had followed the same strategy as Max, pitted for fresh tires, only to see Norris, Alonso, Ocon, Leclerc and Vettel be allowed to scamper away and un-lap themselves and Ricciardo being told to stay put with Stroll and Schumaher behind him (all on fresh rubber).

    The rules have to be the same for everybody, clearly they were not in 2021, we cannot have a repeat in 2022.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Guys, you are grown up people, mature. I believe it is too naive to wait for pure racing from F1. Its not a pure racing 10 years at least, with liberty media the situation worsened. F1 can't move out from being a show to be a pure racing, its business model is built under mass media, its a mass product. If people stop to pay 300 euro at least for a ticket, buy merchendise or stop their subsriptions, with the current team budgets it will be unsustainable. The less the roi, the less the sustainable budget (forget about budget cap - its for idiots who doesnt know what is financials). Also, I wouldnt expect pure racing from FIA which is as corrupted as FIFA currently.

    Guys, if you want pure racing, pay your attention to adac gt and indycar. Both are amazing, no crybabies there


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Lets not devolve into name calling etc of the 2021 thread.

    You dont think WEC, Indycar etc dont care about, eyeballs, mentions, ratings and attendance?  The sponsors who pay the bills definitely do.

    Spec racing or balance of performance bring their own issues so nothing is perfect.   There is room for the technological arms race in F1 within common and understood rules.  You can enforce a budget cap just like any other rule, with audit and testing.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Lets not devolve into name calling etc of the 2021 thread.

    You dont think WEC, Indycar etc dont care about, eyeballs, mentions, ratings and attendance?  The sponsors who pay the bills definitely do.

    Spec racing or balance of performance bring their own issues so nothing is perfect.   There is room for the technological arms race in F1 within common and understood rules.  You can enforce a budget cap just like any other rule, with audit and testing.

    They care, of course, but their business model is totally different. Sponsor in F1 pays to be seen on tv coverage to the masses, sponsor in indycar - being only the payer to the pilots (you know in indycar the wage to pilots is paid by sponsors mostly) wants to be associated with the sucessful pilot, not more. In indy the pilot is the face of sponsor. Totally diff approach. In wec the sponsorship is quite weak, there the sponsors are mostly the technical partners. F.e. if in F1 merc spends only about 10-15% of teams budget (no engines) per year (all other money - sponsors and several sources from f1 itself), in wec vise versa, porsche spent hundreds of millions on 919 per year and the sponsors 10%, being mostly technical and technological partners. 

    You can force budget cap, but factory teams can "hide" all the excessive investments into f1 simply under r&d budget. Question, how somybody from big 4 could separate the budget between electric engine development for eqs and f1 team?)))) F.e. ferrari in its annual statement doesnt separate road car rd and f1 rd (incl engine). How much, knowing that ferrari invests 1,5 billion euro, from this sum ferrari spends in team, engine and road car department?))) Ifrs methodology doesnt require to split the digits:) everything can be done after profit distribution. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    What it comes down to me is F1 has to re-establish themselves as a sport first and entertainment second not the other way around. 

    Unfortunately it's all about the money, everything else is second, so I don't think they have any intention to prioritize the sport aspect if the entertainment aspect is more profitable.

    It's happening to many spiders in afraid, I've been an MMA fan for almost 30 years since it's was born in the early 90's, and I've seen it go from a pure spectacle and turn into a serious elite sport, and now the entertainment aspect is taking over and sport is taking s back seat.

    It used to be that these organizations (F1  UFC, etc) tried to at least maintain the sport aspect for the sake of appearances but in today's times they don't even care and don't seem to need to, who is the biggest PPV draw in MMA? clownd like Connor McGregor, that is sad. It's the same with the music industry today, etc.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    In continuation to my words why cost cap is for idiots (marketing bs lovers). Hughes is very modest on the methods to avoid cost cap. In reality, for factory team the amount of possibilities is immense. More difficult for privateers because their structure is much simplier. Smiley

    https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-the-f1-cost-caps-loopholes-and-likely-flashpoints/


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Fia is full of socialists. When socialists start to work on financials, wait for a trouble. Stupid jerks with stupid initiatives


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Yes enforcement of cost containment is difficult, but not impossible.   Just like any technical rule.  You test and audit and teams will find ways just like in the technical rules. And the rule enforcers adjust rules and methods.   I don’t see how cost cap is any different than policing aero and engine tech.  Pushing boundaries is in the fabric F1.

    Let me ask you a simple question. Is the difference between the Alpine/McLaren and Redbull/Mercedes/Ferrari smaller or larger after the cost cap implementation? If it’s smaller the cost cap is improving the racing.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Yes enforcement of cost containment is difficult, but not impossible.   Just like any technical rule.  You test and audit and teams will find ways just like in the technical rules. And the rule enforcers adjust rules and methods.   I don’t see how cost cap is any different than policing aero and engine tech.  Pushing boundaries is in the fabric F1.

    Let me ask you a simple question. Is the difference between the Alpine/McLaren and Redbull/Mercedes/Ferrari smaller or larger after the cost cap implementation? If it’s smaller the cost cap is improving the racing.

    Here is the different case. With technical rules, f.e. the limitation of aero work 1000 hours. You can easily put the program that will register the amount of time the aero tunnel operated. As with the amount of engines. There are technical solutions to monitor the amount of engines and its components. 

    With money it is almost impossible. The teams that run under the manufacturers can simply hide the f1 teams expenses under other expense articles. F.e. officially you invest 140 mln in f1 team, but in reality you can add the same sum under the article - research and development. How would audit split the expenses you sent on f.e. development of new materials for future production models and f1 team. No one could do that, there is no regulation how much money you could invest, its your choice;) it is easy example, in reality everything more "clever", but to see the point. Its the same as to limit the amount of people you can use for f1 car development. Simply move the excess amount of people under other departments, who will monitor what you do on the working place? 

    Of course the smaller the organisation the more difficult to hide the expenses. Less ways to redistribute it under different expenses articles, more difficult to hide the cash flow.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    You are so naive if you think money is easy to hide. 

    Unlike other stuff, there is always a trail for money. Especially if one knows where to start looking. Don't forget who is in charge, Brawn was the king of loopholes in regulations. He was on the other side of the fence for the longest time.

    Aero however is much easier, especially the CFD part. It doesn't need wind tunnel so there is no time sheet to log. Who is to say some engineers don't have a powerful PC at home or off site and run CFD programs out of the monitored space?

    What is there to argue about if one morning an engineer comes in and says he dreamed of something different and let's try on the official logged CFD machine? There is no smoking trial to follow, unlike money.

    Plenty of off the shelf commercial programs available, may not be as powerful and precise as custom written programs, but for proof of concept and viability purpose, they are good enough. 

    Say a team has 6 different concept for a wing design, instead of testing all 6 on the official machine to waste resources, those can be tested off site and only the most promising one is tested on the official machine. One can't police this unless there is a rat somewhere.

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy, I will be short. CFD and wind tunnel are a totally different aero tools. CFD is used to create the part concept (in case of F1 body), wind tunnel - to work under the details of complex formed parts and real world data correlation. Currently the FIA limits the power of the data centers that calculate the CFD models, so CFD is limited in its usage, however even with the current processing powers CFD cant fully eliminate wind tunnels.

    Who is to say some engineers don't have a powerful PC at home or off site and run CFD programs out of the monitored space? - facepalm, install CFD software at your home pc and create a car part please, then we talk. (Do you really understand what kind of systems are needed to calculate the CFD of F1 car parts and their mutual effects on the aero concept???)

    Also, small homework. According to Ferrari IFRS statement 2020 their RD budget is 707 mil Euro. Please split the production cars, F1 cars and F1 engine RD budget from this sum and substantiate this split. Have a nice time to do thatSmiley


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Your post tells me how naive you are.

    Ever heard of forensic accounting? Yeah, that. Investigative accounting. We public only sees what Ferrari published per listing rules. They don't have to break it down for us general public to be compliant. FIA investigators sees much much more, outside of the public eyes. They don't have to talk about it or even let you know about it. Doesn't mean it didn't happened. 

    You can laugh all you want about using PCs vs super computers on CFD. For proof of concept, there isn't a need for super precise modelling. Quick and dirty does the job. It's like you carry $10 to go buy something that's $9 before tax. Sales tax is 13.5%, quick mental math tells you the $10 isn't enough, you don't need to whip out a calculator to calculate the precise answer as $10.22. 

    And why would you think someone would try to model a whole car off site? There is no need. A car consists of hundreds of parts, one can break them down and concentrate one at a time. If something is promising, repeat the run at the office. If not, move onto the next idea. All freebie runs, no logged time.

    Say some team did a official run on the front wing, they like their design. But they want to see how different the flow will be if the profile of the end plate is changed, one way or another. They could use valuable time on the logged machine to see, or they can recreate just the front wing end plate and do it off site on a computer running some CFD software, chaining the profile both ways. Perhaps the quick and dirty method says there is more outwash if they curve the profile one way, nothing precise but the resulting data says the numbers aren't within margin of error and the extra outwash could really mean something, they can go back to the office next day or next week to run it on the long machine to confirm. 

    Teams have hundreds of thousands of hours of research done already, there is a giant database of values they can compare with. Do a quick run on something and see what those values are compared to the database, and move onto the next part. No one is saying to run whole car simulation, no point. Just focus on parts and how the flow change or not change. They have mountains of data on downstream parts and if something seems promising, that those results and plug in the values for the next part downstream and rinse and repeat. 

     

     

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I dont need to investigate, I do it)) 

    Except of regular audit there will be FIA audit of the whole Ferrari, Mclaren, Renault, Red Bull (whole company) and Mercedes??? Are you joking?

    Whoopsy, I really dont undestand what aim you follow describing me the way CFD guys work, more over what you describe is quite wrong. I understand well what is CFD (as other CAD/CAE analysis tools) and clearly the approaches you describe are not F1 level. F1 is about attention to details, it is where the advantages you get. Rules are very well prescribed and very strict to spend the vast amount of time on dirty work - it is the work done on beginning, concept. If you change concept - thats the end.

    Also I stop to understand what we discuss. FIA does not limit the time of CFD sims, it limits the processing power. CFD is a virtual sim tool, wind tunnel - real sim tool. They are different and are used on the different stages of development. If you propose to kill wind tunnel work for CFD work - good luck to you. You ll be 5 secs a lap slower.

    P.s. please, stop talking personality, naive, not naive. Because, if after accounting methods and CFD approaches you describe, I will tell who you are, you will once again write long existential crisis posts. 😉


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    1) You did not answer my question from earlier.

    2) You realize that many of the companies participating in, owners of and investors in F1 teams are public companies right?  The accounting shenanigans you suspect are happening won't be.  You think Mercedes are going to sneak some budget from the development of the C-Class to actually develop a new floor on the W13?  So when they have to report on ROI on the C-Class sales, they are going to hamper that so then get a few hundredths in F1?  Not going to happen.  Yes teams will push the boundaries, just like they push boundaries on all regs.  Will correlation software for fluid dynamics worked on for Ineos Americas cup boat potentially make their way to F1 testing... possibly.  But not at the scale you suggest.

    So if the answer to my first question myself, answer is yes, if Mercedes and Ferrari spending will be curtailed by the cap even a little bit, the racing has to closer as a result.  Its been very public the redundancies of employees Mercedes and Redbull have had to unfortunately make as a result of the caps being phased in.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    We need a native rolling eyes emoji and a native popcorn emoji. 

     


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    1) You did not answer my question from earlier.

    2) You realize that many of the companies participating in, owners of and investors in F1 teams are public companies right?  The accounting shenanigans you suspect are happening won't be.  You think Mercedes are going to sneak some budget from the development of the C-Class to actually develop a new floor on the W13?  So when they have to report on ROI on the C-Class sales, they are going to hamper that so then get a few hundredths in F1?  Not going to happen.  Yes teams will push the boundaries, just like they push boundaries on all regs.  Will correlation software for fluid dynamics worked on for Ineos Americas cup boat potentially make their way to F1 testing... possibly.  But not at the scale you suggest.

    So if the answer to my first question myself, answer is yes, if Mercedes and Ferrari spending will be curtailed by the cap even a little bit, the racing has to closer as a result.  Its been very public the redundancies of employees Mercedes and Redbull have had to unfortunately make as a result of the caps being phased in.

    Where is hello? How are you?)))

    1. I think that the cost cap will not increase the gap between mclaren/red bull/ferrari and mercedes. Alpine can have some disadvantage due to lack of clients that use their engine. So no possibility to share the development with the sattelite.

    2. Later


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Enmanuel:

    We need a native rolling eyes emoji and a native popcorn emoji. 

     

    Smartest post here in quite some time. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    On 2nd. Yep Daimler is public and under the statements must show all the flows and must be audited. However, there is no problem to create dependaple entity, where daimler, f.e. has 49.9% of share. Then this entity is not public and can do anything it wants.

    Also, Top f1 teams, who produce the engines, will share the r d budgets with the sattelites - privateers who dont produce the engine and will simply sell the the parts kits (a little bit different ones, or older ones).

    There is also a different way. Mercedes f1 and mercedes hpp are different entities, both being dependant from MB. Mercedes hpp increase the budget, mercedes f1 decrease. 

    These are only the examples. There are multiple ways to do everything avoiding the audit. There are no limitations in the world to create dependable entities. They can be not f1 teams, but can make the development the official team will use without any limitations.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Hi, how are you?Smiley

    Maybe accounting and audit work differently in Russia? Smiley

    But... I think I've reached as far as Im going to let a day job seep into a discussion forum for fun.  Smiley


     
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