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    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Shakal said:
    Great result

    LOL, Schumacher wanted to win his last race, but he didnt even came on podium

    great drive by Alonso!!


    I'm surprised at the tone of your post. If you watched the race or had the sense to make a fair judgement, you would know that MS's drive was phenomenal and he had every reason to hold his head high at this final juncture.

    His was the drive of the day.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Alonso would still need another 5 years with 5 world championship titles before one could compare him to Schumacher.

    Until that day Schumacher is the most successful Forumla 1 driver in history.



    Well, nobody can disagree with that, that is a fact, pure and simple. But...


    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    And given that Schumacher was the first driver in more than 4 decades of Formula 1 that managed to exceed Fangio's five titles chances are very high that Schumacher will remain the most successful F1 driver for decades



    (... continued) lets just say that Alonso has had the most impressive head start in those four decades of F1 history, achieving more than what Schumacher was able to do at his age, and even beating him in the last two seasons were they faced each other. So there is still time to change that title

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    30 years later i am sure that when i check my memory i will remember Schumi or Senna as F1 Legend.


    Villeneuve was a champion at once when he was young...

    Alonso is champion again. Well done it was a hard job to do. But it is a different taste for me if i compare it to Schumi's succes

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    911fan said:I agree. It really gets me- all the hoopla about Schu. Yes he is talented, but come on. People act like he is a god. Whenever he is winning, his Ferrari is demonstrably better than everything else. Today something happened that I knew would happen- Schu began turning fast laps and everyone began saying how "incredible" and "amazing" he is- despite the fact he was in a car easily superior to everyone.

    Maybe it is just commentary on how silly F1 has become- with cars deciding the races rather than drivers.



    This is what no other the Emerson Fitipaldi had to say: "Schumacher is a gennius but in mi opinion he is not the best of all time. Fangio, Senna and Clark were better than him. He has been fortunate in catching a time in F1 without competitors of his level."

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Alonso will never be a Schumacher. never.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I'm not going to dignify that contribution to the forum with a reply and sttop to that level. Today is a day for celebration!


    I made a promise to you not to provoke you by use of my brand of humor - since my brand of irony and sarchasm does not sit well with you. I can respect that. And that's why this post is by no means sarchastic.

    We get the fact that you love everything about Alonso.
    That's your choice and it's also your choice that you choose to ignore the fact that not all people find Alonso as great as you do.
    It's also your choice that you wont acknowledge the fact, that Schumacher is a way more successful driver than ANY other - including Alonso.

    You have been trying to undermine fellow Rennteamers' posts that dont favour Alonso, either by not recognizing their views or by use of colorful language and sarchasm. And when people react to this behaviour, you claim you don't wanna "dignify an answer" and "stoop to that level".
    FYI you already HAVE stooped to that level - IMO this very thread is an invitation to a clash between MS fans and Alonso fans.

    You say you wanna celebrate Alonso, but honestly, judging from your posts, it looks more like you wanna make people understand, that a guy winning the F1 championships seven times, is a loser compared to one that wins it twice.
    To me, your very first post in this thread is not one of celebration, but one of putting down MS and trying hard to convince everyone that "Alonso is a lot better than Schumacher because he is the youngest this and that".

    Perhaps it's not meant this way - i dunno - but it looks like you intentionally provoke people. And when they react, you go "Who? me? Nonono...I dont fight. That's beneath me!" - and play coy and moderator-like.
    That's just not right.
    I suggest you either give a balanced view on things - or be subjective and passionate, and expect others to be the same.
    I dont think you can expect people to not react when you poke them with a stick.

    On a different note:
    Congrats on your man winning the championship!
    And also congrats to all MS fans for an absolutely incredible end to an amazing carreer.
    I will miss the MS-factor next season, and it actually annoys me that Alonso has made a seemingly bad choice by picking McLaren at this time.
    I would have been great to see Kimi versus Alonso in equal equipment, but unless McLaren starts pulling up miracles (or Kimi's poor luck continues with Ferrari) it doesn't look like it will be that much of a fight between the two next year.
    But it's F1. Anything can happen.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Atzporsche said:
    Alonso will never be a Schumacher. never.



    Alonso may surpass Schmacher in victories. But it doesnt look like Alonso is as creepy as Schuy when it comes to unsportsman like conduct on the track.

    Schuys career had good timing and he is a very talented guy.
    F1 will not be as much fun without his "Black Knight" win at any cost, smirking on track persona.

    This thread started with "At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion" and morphed into a wailing wall for
    anti Alonso people. Give credit where credit is due. 2 F1 chanpionships in a row is impressive.

    Its not a perfect sport with a perfect equal playing field. All things considered its a sterling achievement for anyone
    to win a championship, much less two in a row.


    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Atzporsche said:
    Alonso will never be a Schumacher. never.



    Alonso may surpass Schmacher in victories. But it doesnt look like Alonso is as creepy as Schuy when it comes to unsportsman like conduct on the track.


    Quite true. MS wont pick up the trophy for Most Sportsmanlike Conduct on the Track
    And man, have I hated his guts at many GPs!!!
    But at least he was never boring!

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    They can never be boring - the ego's at stake are tremendous. Schuy did well at making his ego show the easiest on track.

    The other guys are pretty dull, crash a lot or need a New York Telephone book to see over the steering wheels of their own cars off track.

    I suggest that Alonso watch Fernando llamas Sr interviews as part of a personality development course.

    F1 needs some charm and less hyper ventilating and purile maliciousness. Name me one F1 driver with a personality,
    I dont think there is one.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Congrats to MS!! Nice job to alonso as well. I second the fact that last yrs title and the first half of this yr was Alonso's due to tires. I think next yr with everyone on the same tires we will really see more of the drivers talent. I dont know if Alonso is as good as MS because this is only his second year. Time will only tell. However, he has some big shoes to fill. I have watched over the past 8-9 years and just be amazed at how fast MS was on the track. He was also a great asset to the TEAM in developing the car and communicating exactly what needed to be done to win. Alonso is not so good with that, in my opinion..

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    And given that Schumacher was the first driver in more than 4 decades of Formula 1 that managed to exceed Fangio's five titles chances are very high that Schumacher will remain the most successful F1 driver for decades



    More like with the departure of Adrian Newey from McLaren and their woeful reliability issues, the likelihood of Alonso to continue to finish every race with a car in tip-top shape will really stifle his championship aspirations as it did for Raikkonen for the last two years.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    But seriously, here are some thoughts to take from the race today:

    -We see the greatest aspects of drivers when they are faced with adversity. After engaging in another symptomatic "Schummacher" moment in Monaco, he stormed through the field in the hardest track to pass, putting on, in my opinion, the best racing performance of the year.
    I find this quality in Schummacher, Alonso, Raikkonen and perhaps newcommers such as Kubica/Massa. This is what makes greatness and we will see what Alonso is made of when he is removed from the comfort of Renault to the volatility of McLaren.

    -Felipe Massa cemented himself as a driver of calibur beyond what many labeled him as a "stopgap" before Ferrari would acquire Raikkonen/Alonso. He seems to have really reigned in the wildness that really plagued him with Williams in 05. Remember, he had the most passes of any driver that season, but also a slew of crashes. Next year will not be a 1-Raikkonen 2-Massa, but a challenging sense of parity.

    -Alonso continues to show his maturity beyond his years. He is not as flashy as Raikkonen or Schummacher and perhaps his "best stuff" doesn't come up to theirs (in my opinion), but he rarely makes mistakes (mentally or physically), he manages the race beautifully and he shows just how good he is as he completely destroys his teamate Fisichella who has undeniable talent (albeit dubious resolve and concentration).

    -------------

    Final and most important note:

    -I believe this race really exemplified the dissonance between the top strata of F1 drivers (Schummacher, Alonso, Raikkonen) and the ones just below (Massa, Button, Kubica, Barrichello) and the rest which are pretty much interchangeable parts (de la Rossa, Webber, Heidfeld, Speed, Liuzzi etc etc etc...) Let me give you the reason why:

    In the last 3 laps, as Schummacher was drafting Raikkonen and made his pass through a tight turn, you saw the exemplary nature of drivers of the utmost caliber. Both cars were careening through the bend, mere centimeters away from each other, as they realized the gravity of the situation, fully capable of holding the utmost precision through the most arduous of conditions. Both drivers are so talented and yet they both are teetering at the edge of destruction. It's tantamount to a nuclear detant, between two powerful yet conscious entities.

    Compare that to Lizzui's crash earlier in the race and you begin to see the difference....

    It is not as if these other drivers are poor in terms of their mechanics and racing philosophies. Put any F1 driver on a practice circuit and they will churn out laps that you cant even dream of. But in the very mettle of the utmost competition, mixed with millions of dollars of expectations and dreams, only the truest of the true can react in the heat of the moment with percision and audacity.

    Another example of this that comes to my mind is the 2005 pass by Raikkonen on Fisichella at Suzuka. This is what F1 is made of. This is why I watch.

    Congrats to Alonso, Massa and Schumacher. I look forward to the new face of F1 and hopefully some excellent racing with these upcomming talents...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    A series of events made Renault's chances of holding off Ferrari's challenge harder than it otherwise would have been. It started last winter, with the decision to reintroduce tyre changes after a season in which Bridgestone had failed to match Michelin's ability to design tyres that were competitive over an entire race distance. The decisions kept on coming:

    * Ferrari's use of flexing front and rear wings was declared legal at the start of the season, forcing all other teams to follow suit

    * Renault's "mass damper" was banned on the grounds of being a moveable aerodynamic device, despite it being located inside the car and cleared for use since September 2005

    * Wheel farings introduced by Ferrari on the basis that they cooled the brakes, but which also had an aerodynamic effect, were allowed

    * To the anger of fellow drivers, Schumacher was not punished for missing the chicane while defending his place in Hungary

    * Alonso was controversially demoted on the grid in Italy for allegedly blocking Ferrari's Felipe Massa

    After all the anti-Renault bias, they managed to beat Ferrari with a 25-year old kid. Let's give Renault credit for winning an uphill struggle.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:I made a promise to you not to provoke you by use of my brand of humor - since my brand of irony and sarchasm does not sit well with you. I can respect that. And that's why this post is by no means sarchastic.

    We get the fact that you love everything about Alonso.
    That's your choice and it's also your choice that you choose to ignore the fact that not all people find Alonso as great as you do.
    It's also your choice that you wont acknowledge the fact, that Schumacher is a way more successful driver than ANY other - including Alonso.




    Dr.Phil, its not only you humor that does not sit well with me, now you are attributing false statements to me. Just a couple of posts above you have me staiting exactly the opposite in my answer MKSGR. Really fustrating. So please keep your promise out of respect for the forum, I have. Say what you please but ignore my posts in ref to F1 I and will yours and this will be a better place.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Alonso would still need another 5 years with 5 world championship titles before one could compare him to Schumacher.

    Until that day Schumacher is the most successful Forumla 1 driver in history.



    Well, nobody can disagree with that, that is a fact, pure and simple. But...


    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    And given that Schumacher was the first driver in more than 4 decades of Formula 1 that managed to exceed Fangio's five titles chances are very high that Schumacher will remain the most successful F1 driver for decades



    (... continued) lets just say that Alonso has had the most impressive head start in those four decades of F1 history, achieving more than what Schumacher was able to do at his age, and even beating him in the last two seasons were they faced each other. So there is still time to change that title



    There have been so many new, young drivers which where called "the new star" much too early...

    The simple fact is: the F1 (as any career also in other business areas...) is a long-distance run. There are many that are successful in the short-run but very, very few that manage to outperform all others in the long rung. Thus, one should not (seriously) compare Alonso with Schumacher at this point of time.

    Right now, Alonso is no match for Schumacher. Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver ever. Alonso is a successful (and talented) newcomer. Nothing more

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    911fan said:I agree. It really gets me- all the hoopla about Schu. Yes he is talented, but come on. People act like he is a god. Whenever he is winning, his Ferrari is demonstrably better than everything else. Today something happened that I knew would happen- Schu began turning fast laps and everyone began saying how "incredible" and "amazing" he is- despite the fact he was in a car easily superior to everyone.

    Maybe it is just commentary on how silly F1 has become- with cars deciding the races rather than drivers.



    This is what no other the Emerson Fitipaldi had to say: "Schumacher is a gennius but in mi opinion he is not the best of all time. Fangio, Senna and Clark were better than him. He has been fortunate in catching a time in F1 without competitors of his level."



    The question is: how could somebody like Fittipaldi dare to make such a comparison. Fittipaldi has always been an mediocre performer. I would not make such statements about a collegue if I where as unsuccessful as him

    There is a simple question: who won the most championships, the most GP, who had the most pole positions etc. How large is the gap to the second most successful driver in history in terms of those criteria. After answering these questions the conclusion will be pretty easy to put in words - even for a guy like Fittipaldi

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Fact is: Schumacher 0 - Alonso 2. Period. Schummy has 7 world titles but he lost his duel with Alonso, and Alonso at the age of 25 has 12 more championships in front of him if he retires at the age that Shumy did, plenty of time to rack in 6 more world titles




    You seem to have forgotten that Fernando will be driving a McLaren from next year
    If he wins the championship next year I will eat my Ferrari shirt

    I'm not going to get into the debate, it's all water under the bridge, all I can say now is GO KIMI

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    This is what no other the Emerson Fitipaldi had to say: "Schumacher is a gennius but in mi opinion he is not the best of all time. Fangio, Senna and Clark were better than him. He has been fortunate in catching a time in F1 without competitors of his level."

    => this is exactly the point isn't it? there was no competitors of his level...So M. Fittipaldi argument can easy be flipped against himself...

    Anyway, denying Schumi's success is plain stupid. People might like the guy or not, but his achievements - not only through demonstrated by his statistics, but by the enormous amount of work, dedication and symbiosis with one team - were incredible.
    Alonso has already displayed his nature when things don't go so well for him: Moan at the FIA, moan at his own team.
    I think he is very talented as a driver, but the fact that he is the youngest driver to achieve this or that does not make him the greatest of all time.
    You could also ask: "when did a guy who was about to retire kick a$$ like Schumi yesterday?"...not too bad Grandpa :-)

    Maybe it's a Spanish thing to make fun of pre-retired Sportmen and deny they skill and careers?
    AH! Anybody remembers the Spanish press wishing Zidane a good retirement before Spain-France in the world cup?
    LOL !!!

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    alonso has 1% of Schumi's Skills

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    alonso has 1% of Schumi's Skills



    Any rumours in Italy on what Jean Todt and Ross Brawn will do no that Schumi is gone?
    Will Schumi be part of Ferrari team?

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    rumours: todt ceo ferrari, brawn will be work for ferrari as consultant.We still don't have any news about Michael

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    I hope the scuderia manages that transition :-)
    I cannot imagine they have not offered some position to Schumi...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Fisichella is a taxi-driver, he has something in common with biaggi about his way of thinking.
    I would like to be in fisichella's mind yesterday, he crashed schumi, schumi was the last and after 50laps was in the mirror.....Fisichella has to retire..

    Alonso: come on, they had a clearly advantage with the michelin all over last year and half this year.He is also not polite, he danced in the suzuka's paddock and so on.Michael is a Sir, alonso is a little baby,crying for better tyres-chassis etc tu mum Briatore


    Carlos,

    this is the right comparison

    Michael and Vale Rossi (space level)

    Alonso & Hayden

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Yup Fisichella must feel ashamed...he just cannot keep up with pressure with Michael in his mirrors...
    And also, he is very pale compared to Alonso.
    I wonder how long Renault can afford not to have a top gun in one of its car...
    Let's see with Kovalainen..I suspect this is going to be tough for Fisico too...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Come on guys, if Fernando and Michael can overcome their differences, then so can we.
    Let's just get along, and look forward to the 2007 season

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    In case of Schumacher, with all the controversy what remains is 7 titles as world champion and all others records. As any champion he had his luck on his side many times thou this not taking away from him nothing from his merit. He deserves them as he rescued Ferrari after 20 years of doing nothing. And nobody can take that away from him.

    So is the case with Alonso. What remains is that he won his first two titles while Schumacher was still there and did all this with great driving, calculated and cool in the most important moments of his championships. Was he lucky? Yes as all the champions before him where....and as above it does not take away from him nothing of his merit.

    One interesting thing, both of them have won the first two championship in a row while they where in the Briatore's team, and after that both of them have changed the team going from a winning team to a team that in that moment was not in the best shape.... hmmm

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    ed_moree said:
    In case of Schumacher, with all the controversy what remains is 7 titles as world champion and all others records. As any champion he had his luck on his side many times thou this not taking away from him nothing from his merit. He deserves them as he rescued Ferrari after 20 years of doing nothing. And nobody can take that away from him.

    So is the case with Alonso. What remains is that he won his first two titles while Schumacher was still there and did all this with great driving, calculated and cool in the most important moments of his championships. Was he lucky? Yes as all the champions before him where....and as above it does not take away from him nothing of his merit.

    One interesting thing, both of them have won the first two championship in a row while they where in the Briatore's team, and after that both of them have changed the team going from a winning team to a team that in that moment was not in the best shape.... hmmm



    Quite a comparison, yes. What many people don't take into account with MSC is the fact that he left for Ferrari, where for several years he had an inferior vehicle, but still fought for the title each year, always only narrowly losing (and in 1999 unable to compete due to an injury). He certainly is going to become a legend.

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    ... but still fought for the title each year, always only narrowly losing ...



    This is so true...He was always fighting in front...

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    ed_moree said:
    In case of Schumacher, with all the controversy what remains is 7 titles as world champion and all others records. As any champion he had his luck on his side many times thou this not taking away from him nothing from his merit. He deserves them as he rescued Ferrari after 20 years of doing nothing. And nobody can take that away from him.

    So is the case with Alonso. What remains is that he won his first two titles while Schumacher was still there and did all this with great driving, calculated and cool in the most important moments of his championships. Was he lucky? Yes as all the champions before him where....and as above it does not take away from him nothing of his merit.

    One interesting thing, both of them have won the first two championship in a row while they where in the Briatore's team, and after that both of them have changed the team going from a winning team to a team that in that moment was not in the best shape.... hmmm



    Quite a comparison, yes. What many people don't take into account with MSC is the fact that he left for Ferrari, where for several years he had an inferior vehicle, but still fought for the title each year, always only narrowly losing (and in 1999 unable to compete due to an injury). He certainly is going to become a legend.



    But Ferrari is one of the richiest F1 teams and they bought the best key people, mostly from Benetton. Ferrari is almost red Benetton from 1994 , 1995

    But together, they were (especially from 2000 - 2005) dream team, and credit for that goes to all of them.

    ed_moree: Yep, thats true that Alonso and Schumacher won their first two championship under Briatore`s command, but there is a little difference - Alonso won his two championship decently and because he was better than others; while Schuumacher stole one Championship from Damon Hill, after he cracked under pressure like usual

    Re: At the age of 25, Alonso is two time F1 World Champion

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Shakal said:
    Great result

    LOL, Schumacher wanted to win his last race, but he didnt even came on podium

    great drive by Alonso!!



    Did you watch the race????

    Anyway, if you really think it was a great drive from Alonso, you did not watch the same race as I did...



    Jeannot, I'm curious. Exactly what wasn't great regarding Alonsos drive yesterday?

     
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