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    Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    As an exercise, I flipped thru the classified section of Autoweek which has a decent selection of used Porsches and Ferraris, and decided to compare the most popular models of each marque in a slightly unusual way.

    I captured only a few variables: model year (1999 and newer only), miles driven, and asking price in the ad. To complete my analysis I had to add 2 more numbers. One: I assumed each owner drove an average of 40mph over the total miles driven which should be pretty accurate considering a mix of city & highway speeds. Two: I had to put in the likely purchase price for each car which I also feel is pretty accurate since I visit tire kick P & F dealerships once or twice a year and religiously read the Autoweek classifieds to see new car prices. I thought about considering mpg or servicing costs but after the simple analysis of the figures above, I thought things would only be worse for the Ferraris which get worse mileage and have much higher servicing costs - no one can argue about that.

    In my comparison, there were 11 Ferrari 360's, a mix of coupes & spiders, and 15 911's, which I divided into Turbos and non-turbos. Below are my findings (the detail of each car and calc'd values is attached in a .txt format - couldn't upload Excel format) and you can find the same cars in the back of the current Autoweek or visit their website to verify):

    With a model year average of 2002, the average # of miles on a used 360 is 4,905 meaning they drive about 2,500 miles per year. If you assume an average 40mph over the life of the car, that means that the 360 owner drove their car an average of 123 hours. Obviously 123 hours over 2 to 3 model years isn't a lot and confirms that most Ferrari owners prefer to keep their cars in the garage instead of drive them.

    The average depreciation on a 360 is $26,500 after comparing the current asking prices and plugging in the likely purchase prices as I mentioned above. This depreciation amount when factored over the # of hours the car driven means that it costs a 360 owner $304 per hour to drive their car. Using depreciation over miles driven yields a cost of $7.59 per mile.

    Now onto Porsche...

    The model year average was the same (2002) as the 360 for both the 911 group and the Turbo group (which also included 1 GT2). The average # of miles on a used 911 is 11,500 or more than twice the average of the 360. Turbos were driven slightly less with an average of 9,000 miles. Interpretation - 911's get driven a lot more and justify the nickname 'everyday supercar' or 'everyday sportscar'. If you assume the same average 40mph over the life of the car, that means that the 911 drivers spent an average of 287 hours in the car compared to 224 hours for Turbo owners.

    The average depreciation on a 911 is almost the same as the 360 in absolute dollars = $26,550 but on a percentage basis, it's obviously higher. However when you compare the depreciation of the 911 over the time spent in the car and miles driven, the depreciation rate is actually MUCH less than a Ferrari which confirms my theory that Ferraris really are disposable because if you find one with any miles on it, the depreciation is substantial (see * below). This depreciation amount when factored over the # of hours driven for a 911 owner means that it costs $118 per hour to drive their car (vs. $304 for 360) but costs a Turbo owner $395 per hour which surprised me. The depreciation costs per mile are $2.96 for the 911 and $9.88 for Turbos. (In this example the higher costs for Turbos are due to some really low asking prices on recent cars with really low miles but those are the numbers.)

    *Footnote: there were 2 high mileage 550 Maranellos (1 2001 with 30,000 miles and 1 1999 with 13,700 miles). The cost per hour for these 2 cars works out to $239 and depreciation cost per mile is $6 - both numbers are actually less than the 360 averages. Consider though that while 360s sell at a premium to the MSRP, 550's sell at MSRP or slightly less when new which means owners paid about the same for a new 550 as they would for a 360 spider. That's where it gets ugly because these high mileage Maranellos are now worth about 1/2 what they were after 4 years. That's a jaw dropping $117K in depreciation in the hopes that someone will buy with the high mileage (and pending big service bills).

    Bottom line: I agree that Ferraris are beautiful cars and once put a deposit on a 360 spider. After talking to others though, I couldn't deal with the 'baggage' that accompanies the brand = virtually everyone who sees you on the road will admire the car but hate you as the driver out of envy or whatever. The inevitable stress & panic of parking in public places, leaving your car with the valet, etc. meant it would be difficult to get much enjoyment out of the car if I intended to actually drive it much. If you want to buy a car and look at it, Ferrari is an interesting choice but there are other pieces of beautiful art that will appreciate in value year after year - unfortunately they're not as much fun because you can't drive them (usually you hang paintings on a wall). Besides, I really like the look of the 911 and their uniqueness (don't Toyota MR2's and Lotus Elises share the same mid-engine arrangement with the 360?)
    I don't expect this comparison will silence the Ferraristi (you know who you are) but you can't argue with these 'facts': Porsches get driven MUCH more than Ferraris. If a Porsche isn't driven as much, the sad part is that it still depreciates so might as well get out there and drive them folks. But at the same time, I think it's fair to say that if you can find high mileage Ferraris, they've depreciated at a rate about the same or a little higher even than Porsche but because they cost so much more, the Ferrari's depreciation dollars will always be substantially more. It would be interesting as a 'Part 2' to scour the internet and eBay to compare Ferraris and Porsches with similar mileage to confirm this. One day when I'm bored...

    Lastly, I think it's interesting that certain people criticize Porsche for shrewdly managing their business to achieve the highest profit margins in the industry. Ferrari doesn't quote its profit margins but after you factor in Schumacher's salary, maybe that's why they might lose money or have much lower profit margins, I don't know. What I do know however is that the Ferrari dealers get away with charging RIDICULOUS price premiums for their cars because of the artificially constrained supply. Why doesn't whatever his name is complain about that? Or the fit & finish of the cars? Or that besides the 360 there isn't another pretty car in their lineup - can you say Ugly-etti, I mean Scaglietti?

    All in good fun.

    That's enough for now.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Jeff, I think some of your data is flawed and its' resultant analysis, but there is no doubt that the cost per motoring hour is very high for a Ferrari and a Porsche.

    If you factor in the inability in the US to actually USE
    the over 100mph performance of either a Porsche or a Ferrari, the cost gets even higher.

    Nonetheless, the allure of ownership remains high.

    Luxury products like Porsches and Ferrari transcend just being another brand. They are love marques, and as we all know, love is never cheap!

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    They are love marques, and as we all know, love is never cheap!



    love SHOULD be free.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I think some of your data is flawed and its' resultant analysis...
    Quote:
    Please point out where you think the data is flawed and I'm happy to rerun the calcs. Even if I'm off by 50% on any particular variable (which is unlikely), the Ferrari's costs on my metrics are almost 300% higher!!

    Quote:
    If you factor in the inability in the US to actually USE the over 100mph performance of either a Porsche or a Ferrari, the cost gets even higher.


    I don't understand this point. Cost is measured in dollars or time. How are you adding in 'inability' and what impact does that have on the cost?

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Yes, good point. My response is get both and really take a hit

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    "I don't understand this point. Cost is measured in dollars or time. How are you adding in 'inability' and what impact does that have on the cost?"

    Easy. You can't get full use of their performance here. Your paying for the performance, but aren't able to use it. Please dont tell me it handles, brakes well,is used on track days,looks pretty and is well built...yadda yadda.

    "Track days," bursts onto freeway on ramps and sometimes
    hitting 120-140 on clear stretches on 280 is just not enough!

    Once you have been lucky enough to drive over 100mph on a daily basis without police paranoia, it makes everything else seem absolutely boring.

    But if you've gotta have it, you've gotta have it

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Thanks for taking the time and effort for this very interesting analysis which cofirms with real data most open minded people's impressions.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Although money surely plays a role in my car buying decisions because I'm not somebody who can afford buying a car without having to do various caculations about "available" money, maybe leasing cost or down payment, maintenance cost, insurance, etc.
    But to be honest, all my car buying decisions up til now have been pretty much driven by emotions and not by brains.
    And although I do a lot of "can you afford it without putting your family in a financial disaster" calculations before buying a car, I never looked at resale value. Simply because I have to love my cars, I have to have an emotional relationship to them and resale value is something I might not be able to predict precisely, making the buying decision a matter of my head and not emotions anymore. Can't do that.

    I really like Ferrari and as I said in many posts, I would own both, a Porsche AND a Ferrari if I could afford it.
    But I have to find a car which is a great performer (especially regarding handling), which has a low bling-bling factor (neighborhood, friends, business), somehow low maintenance and insurance cost and all of that at a somehow reasonable price. Best example: look at the Ferrari F360 Challenge Stradale and the Porsche GT3 Mk2. Both are pretty similar performers, I would even say that the GT3 is slightly faster and handles slightly better. But the Stradale costs over here almost 70000 Euro more. For 70000 Euro I could get a nicely equipped Cayenne S or new Boxster S for my wife. Or I could put the money away for the kids...
    Of course the Stradale is more bling-bling and it might be more fun for some people to drive it. Over here in Germany, it would create hot blood, it would make neighbors and friends hate you and whenever parking the car, you would have to be afraid that somebody scratches it. Especially since economics in Europe are like they are. A Porsche is still a luxury sports car and people still envy the owners but it doesn't provoke too much, especially since Porsche owners are considered to be passionate performance drivers, it has something to do with tradition and how people look at it. Of course Ferrari's reputation has improved a lot over here in the past few years due to Schumacher's involvement in the F1 races. But people still look at Ferrari owners like pimps or people who want to show off at any cost and this makes a Ferrari a pretty provoking car over here and probably in the rest of Europe. I know things are a little bit different in the US but I try to explain how the surroundings can influence a buying decision.

    Would I buy a Ferrari if I would live in the US? I guess it would be the same as over here: if I would have the money. In the US I would probably drive a SL65 AMG as a daily driver and a GT3 Mk2 as a track fun car, maybe even a GT2 Mk2. And I would definetely add a F355 or F430 Spider to my garage if my wife would need a Cab. Of course I would drive it too.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Jeff,

    Interesting analysis. Actually looking at lease costs/mileage might be a lot easier.

    Also your cost calculations are based on asking prices and I think one can assume that your cost of ownership calculations are if anything understated due to: lower selling price than asked, advertising costs, and maybe sales tax cost not included in the purchase cost calculation, nor financing cost or imputed cost of money.

    Anyhow I think one can assume that the lease cost is a good market driven proxy for ownership cost (at least for a Porsche or Ferrari where rate subsidies and residual value games are not likely a factor).

    For the leasee it IS the cost, including interest cost. The only difference compared with true ownership cost, I would suggest is the 'opportunity cost' of being able to trade in a car whenever you want compared with a fixed 'ownership' period.

    I have a three year / 15,000 mile per year lease on an 997S which had a MRSP of approx. $93,000. My lease payment is approx. $1,550.

    It is my daily driver, my only car, and based on prior history I will indeed drive it almost exactly 15K miles a year.

    So my cost per mile is approx. $1.24. My average speed per date is 38 MPH, so my average cost of ownership per hour (excluding gas, insurance and maintenance) is about $47.

    I think this might point to one reality: the more you drive your car during a given period, the lower your cost of ownership on a per mile or hour basis.

    Logically: a car's resale value is primarily a function of two variables: mileage and age. So mileage must represent less than 100% of variability - so the more you drive your car over a given period of time the lower your ownership cost.

    Since you CAN use a Porsche as a daily driver, even as your only car as in my case, but you arguably CAN'T (or wouldn't, practically speaking) use a Ferrari in this manner: if you were to map cost of ownership across the total Porsche and Ferrari populations, I think you would find the average ownership cost between the two marques even wider than the average purchase price difference would suggest.

    Wow! After twenty five years, my investment in Business School finally paid off!!

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Interesting points RC, however, why is it you would choose a SL65 if you lived in the US but not own one in Europe?

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    I must tell you RC...from all the people on the world..i never tought that Germany would be so envy...

    My idea of Germany was that they are/were very "liberal" people in every aspect.

    Other day i asked my brother about this "German envy stuff" and i was very suprised to hear him say "it runs for years" and he also said "that's why all the German cars order guides have the "delete model designation"".

    Go figure.....

    Woshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Our society is liberal to the outside but in our heads...
    But there are worse places to live...

    It is a pitty: a lot of people over here work hard for their money but lots of them "hide" what they have not to provoke. I'm somehow lucky that my neighbors know me for many years and got used to that "car maniac" next door to them. But whenever we meet new people through Kindergarden or our jobs, on the first meeting you can see the looks in the eyes when they see the Cayenne Turbo or the 997 Carrera S. And these aren't poor people, some of them are much wealthier than we are, I would even all them rich. But it is "tres chique" to drive an Audi station wagon Turbodiesel and have art for 100000 Euro in the house but not to spend 100000 Euro for a car and having some sketches from the flee market on the wall. Just kidding...we don't have anything on our walls at home.

    It is pretty sad but it is a fact: people over here care more about what their friends and neighbors are doing than they care about themselves. Maybe this is why we have so many economic problems. If people here would care less about large company CEO incomes (there has been a very passionate discussion about unveilling their incomes to the public) but care more about their own future and destiny, we would move on a little bit faster.

    We are a "car nation" and we criticize people for buying cars...something is wrong.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    pnoble said:
    Jeff,

    Interesting analysis. Actually looking at lease costs/mileage might be a lot easier.

    Also your cost calculations are based on asking prices and I think one can assume that your cost of ownership calculations are if anything understated due to: lower selling price than asked, advertising costs, and maybe sales tax cost not included in the purchase cost calculation, nor financing cost or imputed cost of money.

    Anyhow I think one can assume that the lease cost is a good market driven proxy for ownership cost (at least for a Porsche or Ferrari where rate subsidies and residual value games are not likely a factor).

    For the leasee it IS the cost, including interest cost. The only difference compared with true ownership cost, I would suggest is the 'opportunity cost' of being able to trade in a car whenever you want compared with a fixed 'ownership' period.

    I have a three year / 15,000 mile per year lease on an 997S which had a MRSP of approx. $93,000. My lease payment is approx. $1,550.

    It is my daily driver, my only car, and based on prior history I will indeed drive it almost exactly 15K miles a year.

    So my cost per mile is approx. $1.24. My average speed per date is 38 MPH, so my average cost of ownership per hour (excluding gas, insurance and maintenance) is about $47.

    I think this might point to one reality: the more you drive your car during a given period, the lower your cost of ownership on a per mile or hour basis.

    Logically: a car's resale value is primarily a function of two variables: mileage and age. So mileage must represent less than 100% of variability - so the more you drive your car over a given period of time the lower your ownership cost.

    Since you CAN use a Porsche as a daily driver, even as your only car as in my case, but you arguably CAN'T (or wouldn't, practically speaking) use a Ferrari in this manner: if you were to map cost of ownership across the total Porsche and Ferrari populations, I think you would find the average ownership cost between the two marques even wider than the average purchase price difference would suggest.



    Agreed. But considering how much I got paid to do this analysis... I think it's still a fairly valid apples-to-apples comparison and to your point, the numbers might change a little but the overall point would still stand.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    danny828 said:
    Interesting points RC, however, why is it you would choose a SL65 if you lived in the US but not own one in Europe?



    I suppose it is due to the envy issue and gasoline prices...?

    Anyways, though I do share RC's opinion I wouldn't care too much about it. People always complain, and as he pointed out it doesn't have to be the poor people who act like this.

    I have had very positive responses everytime driving a Porsche (I avoided the Cayenne yet )!

    Regarding the discussion I would not care about these issues at all, though I see it as a very nice attempt to differentiate those two marques. I wouln't buy something if I wouldn't be able to afford it, no matter what. Just this week there was a statistic report about the number of people asking for credits and the occasional hassle with it. The number of debtors increased massively in the recent past, due to economic reasons but also to the urge for several people to define themselves by their surrounding values...

    Pnoble, your mentioned leasing payments in the US seem to be considerably lower than here in Germany.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    No, we'd be walking or using the bus , eating backyard grown fruits and vegies, wearing $5 plastic wristwatches from Walgreens (or in La Jolla , sundials) .

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    Didn't you consider buying a Corvette in the future?

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    Didn't you consider buying a Corvette in the future?



    Yep, because it isn't about the money for me. It's about the driving experience. I'm fairly certain I'll pick up a new Z06 when they come out because I'm not brandphobic.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    There is not doubt in my mind that everyone should be buying Porsche's and not Ferrari's. Porsche's are reliable. relatively cheap in price and are readily available.

    Ferrari's are high maintenance and over priced.

    Stick with Porsche and please do not consider Ferrari; there just isn't enough of them. Leave the F-car to those of us that do not understand value and what fun is.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    I've actually never bought a watch. The car I'd drive if I were price sensitive is a British Racing Green Mini Cooper, which costs $18,470.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    booger said:
    I've actually never bought a watch. The car I'd drive if I were price sensitive is a British Racing Green Mini Cooper, which costs $18,470.



    I own one and absolutely love it. It is a blast to drive.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    Some folks have been posting comparisons of resale value of F cars vs. P cars so I wanted to set the record straight.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    booger said:
    I've actually never bought a watch. The car I'd drive if I were price sensitive is a British Racing Green Mini Cooper, which costs $18,470.



    Exactly - my everyday car is an Indi Blue Mini Cooper S and it's fantastic. I use the 996 Cabrio mostly on weekends and sunny days but have put 55K trouble-free miles on it since I got it in '99.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    Some folks have been posting comparisons of resale value of F cars vs. P cars so I wanted to set the record straight.



    Could you work up some of your numbers for the guys over on the Vette vs. 997 board? It will be interested to see how they reconcile the double standard.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    booger said:
    I've actually never bought a watch. The car I'd drive if I were price sensitive is a British Racing Green Mini Cooper, which costs $18,470.



    I own one and absolutely love it. It is a blast to drive.



    I'd consider buying one too if they weren't front-wheel drive. That's a deal-breaker for me...

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Are you on a crusade, ben?

    Those double standards are only a figment of your (and nicks) missinterpretations, and yet you bring them up over and over again. I must've seen 'cayenne POS' and 'double standards' at least 50 times this week.

    I suppose you'll be offended by this, but i've got to say it: you're acting like a newly convert, loathing all that used to be his old beliefs, and praising his new religion.

    Now, a guy puts together a cold numbers analysis and comparison between porsche and ferrari costs, and the ferrari guys are trying to spin the discussion to some other BS? How typical..

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Who gives a crap about the money? If we did, we'd all be driving Corvettes, Mustangs, 350Zs, etc.



    Some folks have been posting comparisons of resale value of F cars vs. P cars so I wanted to set the record straight.



    Could you work up some of your numbers for the guys over on the Vette vs. 997 board? It will be interested to see how they reconcile the double standard.



    Ben Jeff's "analysis" is replete with error and cannot by any measure be used as a valid statistical result.

    Porsche resale value, known by just about everyone owner in the US,is pathetic and getting worse by the day. One reason why 997's are not selling is the 996 owners would have to take an incredible depreciation hit with their cars.

    Porsche caused this and it is having an impact on their future sales.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    Ben Jeff's "analysis" is replete with error and cannot by any measure be used as a valid statistical result.




    Sorry Nick, you're a lawyer and NOT a statistician. Stick to your People's Court knowledge of the law. Autoweek actually represents an interesting sample of cars from across the US so there isn't much geographic bias which is really the only factor to consider here when pulling a sample because of the market nuances unique to each region of the US. True it's not a huge sample but how many Ferrari cars are for sale at any time in the US? Or Porsche 996's? When you consider the recent political polls that would query 500 people and project that onto 128 million households across America, I think it's fair to say that my sample is statistically significant. If you'd like me to run the R-squared and correlation coefficients at a certain confidence level, let me know.

    Now I know why lawyers have to charge $300 per hour - they need to pay for their commute home in their Ferrari's. The $300 just about covers it.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Oh, as for the 'prices likely paid' that I used in my analysis, I queried the Ferrari board and got confirmation that the numbers I used are pretty accurate. Again, even if I'm off by 10 to 25% which is a HUGE margin for error, it doesn't affect the outcome.

    Re: Porsche vs. Ferrari Ownership costs (slightly long)

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Are you on a crusade, ben?

    Those double standards are only a figment of your (and nicks) missinterpretations, and yet you bring them up over and over again. I must've seen 'cayenne POS' and 'double standards' at least 50 times this week.

    I suppose you'll be offended by this, but i've got to say it: you're acting like a newly convert, loathing all that used to be his old beliefs, and praising his new religion.

    Now, a guy puts together a cold numbers analysis and comparison between porsche and ferrari costs, and the ferrari guys are trying to spin the discussion to some other BS? How typical..



    I've got two Porsches (and I still may take the CGT which just came in today!) and ONE Ferrari. How exactly am I a "Ferrari guy"? I'm not. Rather you're just one of the many closed minded brand minions around here who psychology feel the need to justify their purchases by putting down other brands. The only problem is that when the silly arguments they use to put down a brand "above" them work, they also work against their arguments for brands "below" them. It's all a little mind exercise which is almost as amusing as it is frustrating. Black and white thinking is an indication of intellectual immaturity.

     
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