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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carrara:

    My take on PDK, while trying to avoid the cliche that "PDK is faster, but who cares, manual is more fun."

    IMO there is no avoiding the progress that is PDK. Manual would be "better", but the lack of it only adds to the charm, character, and desirability of the older cars. If you prefer manual, chances are you prefer the less refined nature of the older cars anyway.

    Like with any new car, it is the manufacturer's job to make it perform better in any way they possibly can than the older car. The 997 GT3 no doubt has its flaws that hinder performance; these are what made that car so special, however. Porsche has improved on the flaws of that car, and as a result we must deal with the compromise that is PDK.

    That is what is so great about the 911, every time they change it, there is and equal gain and loss on either end (performance/fun), which gives each generation something about it; a different soul, all are more or less equally as good. 

    +991!!  Couldn't have said it better, thank you!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bhnyc:

    The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

    Was there a point somewhere in all that?

    Vodka + rennteam sometimes doesn't mix well.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
    bhnyc:

    The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

    Was there a point somewhere in all that?

    Vodka + rennteam sometimes doesn't mix well.

    Not vodka - its a buildup of GT3-related endorphins.  I think several that follow this thread are showing signs.... 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
    bhnyc:

    The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

    Was there a point somewhere in all that?

    Vodka + rennteam sometimes doesn't mix well.

    Then read it again a second time, the point is obvious and his opinion is very well argumented.

    Also, there is no need to disrespect others, lets keep the GT3 debate respectful and constructive here in Rennteam.


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bhnyc:

    The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

    This argument has a certain logic Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    BjoernB:

    as Chris states in his report - I am also quite sure a lot of people will exactly NOW buy a GT3 because of PDK - and the fact that it's kind of the "new S" Carrera - I would also bet a lot will try to delete the spoiler. Quite some friends said they love everything about my car - except for that ugly "Beer-Bar" indecision - if Porsche would use the engine/exhaust into a 4S for example (call it a GTS angry) I am sure would have a big seller...

    Absolutely agree, the 991GT3 without the rear spoiler would be the best looking 991 in pair with the 991 Carrera S which I also love for the clean and simple look.

    I've had Porsche for the last 15 years and only for the last 4 I change to PDK and love it. Still miss the manual from time to time, it really is a different driving feel, but I find myself taking much profit of all package (engine, tires, suspension, brakes) driving with PDK because you have the power on a paddle blip, so much easier to play and get on the power thru traffic or highway. With manual sometimes I was lazy operating the clutch , because it was hard or simply because I wasn't  in the mood, but with PDK I find myself playing with the paddles and throttle just to hear the blips or feeling and hearing the engine till 7000rpm without any effort, it's a joy.

    Still, I do think Porsche should offer a manual GT3, it offers a different driving feel which makes part of this car concept.

    J.Seven

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    MKSGR:
    bhnyc:

    The idea that you are "faster" in a car because of PDK vs. manual does not compute for me.  Lap times are a matter of relativity.  Are you faster than your last lap.  If you have different equipment then you have a different car and of course different cars are faster than other cars.  Not like GT3 is the fastest car.  You can always by a faster car.  So those who argue that they should get the fastest version of a car, I would argue that you can always buy a faster car.  For me the argument is are you faster than your last lap given the equipment you chose to have.  Be that PDK or manual.  If you are a racer, than that is a different argument as you are in a specific class of car (but you still aren't in PDK - )

    This argument has a certain logic Smiley

    It has but it misses a point: That a manual equipped GT3 will be always slower than a PDK equipped PDK with the same driver, professional or amateur and probably much slower with an amateur driver because amateur drivers profit from PDK. Actually, many sports car companies work on semi-automatic systems and even ESP setups which make even professionals faster and I'm not kidding.

    Take the 991 Carrera S for example: I heard that a professional driver with ESP off does practically the same time with ESP turned on (Sport Plus mode) on the track. This is amazing and speaks for the engineering skills of the people involved.

    Maybe we should put this in a different perspective: Imagine you are at a driving event and at some point, even if it is a driver ed event, there is some sort of competition with time taking.  So here's my point: Do you want to be the fastest or one of the fastest or do you want to enjoy yourself? You can't have both as an amateur driver because achieving the best or the second best time requires very good driving skills AND a perfect technical setup, there is also always somebody in the group who is a semi-pro or a former pro. So from a group of 10 cars, you would be the 5th or 6th or maybe the 9th because all these cars had PDK and you had manual (same car and power). Would you care? I bet you would. Just an example.

    You can have fun with PDK too. If you cannot use the clutch, try to do something else, like learning to drive a cleaner line or learn braking (amazing how many good drivers actually lack braking skills) or how to use the steering to your advantages or whatever. I understand when someone like Walter Röhrl tells me that he prefers manual over PDK (which may not even be true) but most amateurs and even semi-pros have still so much to learn and operating a clutch is only a small part of it. You can still shift...using the paddles, does it really matter that here is no stick?! So anyone can have amazing fun using PDK in the GT3 but you just need to wipe off this "manual is manly" or "manual is for pros" prejudice image from your brain. My 80 year old mother knows how to drive stick, this is nothing special in Europe. Get over it.

    A last word on PDK and why many who have it on their cars may criticize it: With PDK, it is pretty easy to drive in auto mode only, actually the tentation is very high. I use my Panamera Turbo S in PDK auto mode only, maybe because I am too lazy to shift or maybe because I hate the buttons (I do not have paddles) but the point is, it is more "convenient". Sometimes, I switch to manual mode and I really like it but then, I cannot concentrate as much on steering and braking as I do with the auto mode. I can shift but I can still learn a lot about my limits when it comes to controlling/handling the car, so manual shifting is actually distracting. It is difficult to explain but for me, the pleasure of driving manual has gone, I kind of like the challenge to do everything in auto mode, perfecting my steering, braking and so on. At some point, this is very fascinating because belive me, if I had to shift, I could never do what I do with PDK auto mode. We are talking amateurs and semi-pros here, not professionals.

    I get it: You want to shift manually because it is fun. Especially on a Cab or Roadster, I can really rely to this. If you want to achieve the fastest possible time though, manual is not what you are looking for. Unless you are a pro and even then, it could be difficult. You don't want to know who had difficulties to follow me in my 997 Turbo RUF 550 and I had...Tiptronic. Smiley Not even PDK. In the end, the driver is the one who drives the car, so driver skills count most.

    Maybe we can agree on one thing: In the end, driving fun is defined by personal preference, driving skill, certain feelings and of course some prejudice. Humans are different and they prefer different things. I can live with that and I hope you can too.

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sorry - no vodka for me but was jet lag after 15 hour flight and agree that I did not fully make the point I wanted to.  The point I wanted to make is that the only entity (person) who should car about the speed of a specific brand is the manufacturer who is marketing a car.  For the consumer, we choose a car and we choose the options of that car.  Once we make that choice, our motivation to drive faster (lap times) should be relative to what we can make that car do.  It does not make sense to me to argue that one option is faster than another option.  This is because there is (usually) always a faster car, so one can argue that the person who always wants to go faster (based on different options) should just buy a faster car all together.  At 7:18 on the ring, that would have lots of us driving GT-Rs.  That is not the car I want to be in.  

    So my point, based on the string of posts on this topic is that any argument of PDK vs. Manual being faster appears irrelevant to me (and there have been plenty of these posts over the past 80 pages) as one can virtually always get a faster car (thankfully the fastest car on the Ring  to date is still a Porsche).  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bhnyc:

    sorry - no vodka for me but was jet lag after 15 hour flight and agree that I did not fully make the point I wanted to.  The point I wanted to make is that the only entity (person) who should car about the speed of a specific brand is the manufacturer who is marketing a car.  For the consumer, we choose a car and we choose the options of that car.  Once we make that choice, our motivation to drive faster (lap times) should be relative to what we can make that car do.  It does not make sense to me to argue that one option is faster than another option.  This is because there is (usually) always a faster car, so one can argue that the person who always wants to go faster (based on different options) should just buy a faster car all together.  At 7:18 on the ring, that would have lots of us driving GT-Rs.  That is not the car I want to be in.  

    This time has never been officially verified and/or achieved by a car magazine with certified equipment. Smiley In Hockenheim, the latest version of the Nissan GT-R did 1.10,1 Min., which is very good but still not sensational. They also claimed 2.7 seconds from 0-100 kph but Sport Auto tested the car at 3.4 seconds. Go figure... Also the previous car with 530 hp  has been tested on the Nordschleife at 7:36 Min., which is very good but not even close to the 7:18 Nissan claimed.

    So my point, based on the string of posts on this topic is that any argument of PDK vs. Manual being faster appears irrelevant to me (and there have been plenty of these posts over the past 80 pages) as one can virtually always get a faster car (thankfully the fastest car on the Ring  to date is still a Porsche).  

    It is not irrelevant because if Porsche would offer a manual version of the GT3 and a PDK version, the manual version would ALWAYS be slower assuming that the same driver would be behind the wheel.

    Like I said in an earlier post: A GT3 prototype with manual fell back ONE CAR LENGTH with EACH SHIFT compared to a car with PDK. Do you know what one car length per shift actually means? This is huge.

    So Porsche could do two things here to equal the differences: They could make the PDK car less powerful or they could dumb down the PDK to shift slower, etc.. Do you really want that? I don't.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)


    It is not irrelevant because if Porsche would offer a manual version of the GT3 and a PDK version, the manual version would ALWAYS be slower assuming that the same driver would be behind the wheel.

    Like I said in an earlier post: A GT3 prototype with manual fell back ONE CAR LENGTH with EACH SHIFT compared to a car with PDK. Do you know what one car length per shift actually means? This is huge.

    So Porsche could do two things here to equal the differences: They could make the PDK car less powerful or they could dumb down the PDK to shift slower, etc.. Do you really want that? I don't.

    RC: I disagree with you here.  Buy this logic I should trade in my GT3RS 4.0 for the new GT3, and all GT3's before that because the new GT3 is faster.  I don't want that - would you?  A driver's performance is only relative to their own car and their own car performance.  Yes the PDK is faster, no doubt.  But I don't think people are wishing that there was a manual option to be faster than the PDK version.  It is a relative experience.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    There is also the element of car magazine comparisons which for many is like the Holy Book on which they base their buying decisions. These comparisons are not always accurate in the relative specification used. So if, the imaginary manual GT3 was to be tested against a DCT rival, the Porsche would come out of the contest as too slow. It might even be beaten by a Carrera S X51 PDK.

    Porsche wouldn't want that to happen from the model they promote as the pinnacle of their sportiness. 

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
     

    Maybe we should put this in a different perspective: Imagine you are at a driving event and at some point, even if it is a driver ed event, there is some sort of competition with time taking.  So here's my point: Do you want to be the fastest or one of the fastest or do you want to enjoy yourself? You can't have both as an amateur driver because achieving the best or the second best time requires very good driving skills AND a perfect technical setup, there is also always somebody in the group who is a semi-pro or a former pro. So from a group of 10 cars, you would be the 5th or 6th or maybe the 9th because all these cars had PDK and you had manual (same car and power). Would you care? I bet you would. Just an example.

     

    Christian, I think his point is the following: while you could argue that you would get a better result in this driving contest in your example with a PDK GT3 car than with a manual GT3 you could still argue that your result would be even better with a GT2RS. Thus, everything is relative. A GT3 is never the fastest car (although one of the best "compromises"). I.e. if you are at approx. 80% of the possibilities with a GT3 - why bother if you are at 78% or 83% (GT3 manual or GT3 PDK) - if the driving pleasure makes a difference for you...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bhnyc, so you are saying speed is a relative thing, relative to the driver and to a specific car in his hands.  That no matter what, there will always be someone faster in the same car, or a different car.  Sure, I agree.

    But the fact remains that Porsche went PDK for  a variety of reasons (market appeal, usability, warranty issues, etc) but one of them was b/c during development the PDK box proved faster than the manual.  Modern automanuals have gotten so advanced that from an objective performance standpoint, they perform better.  It is hard to argue otherwise.

    But as Chris Harris said in other reviews, they represent a fundamental 'shift' in how the driver interfaces with the car, and for enthusiasts who have spent decades in cars with a manual box, and mastering heel toe, it is not a welcome  development.  There's less interaction, less mechanical interaction.  And for many folks, less fun.

    You ask if you should sell your 4.0 and buy a a new 3 cause it's faster.  Of course not if you don't like PDK.  If you are open to the idea, it's worth your time to evaluate it.  But if you, like Chris, aren't willing to give up your manual, then stick with the best Porsche has made, the 4.0.

    After 6 911's with manuals, and another 6 Ferraris, Hondas, Bmws, I'm ready to give the new tech a whirl based on AP's confidence that this PDK box 'works' in the new GT3.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:

    bhnyc, so you are saying speed is a relative thing, relative to the driver and to a specific car in his hands.  That no matter what, there will always be someone faster in the same car, or a different car.  Sure, I agree.

    But the fact remains that Porsche went PDK for  a variety of reasons (market appeal, usability, warranty issues, etc) but one of them was b/c during development the PDK box proved faster than the manual.  Modern automanuals have gotten so advanced that from an objective performance standpoint, they perform better.  It is hard to argue otherwise.

    But as Chris Harris said in other reviews, they represent a fundamental 'shift' in how the driver interfaces with the car, and for enthusiasts who have spent decades in cars with a manual box, and mastering heel toe, it is not a welcome  development.  There's less interaction, less mechanical interaction.  And for many folks, less fun.

    You ask if you should sell your 4.0 and buy a a new 3 cause it's faster.  Of course not if you don't like PDK.  If you are open to the idea, it's worth your time to evaluate it.  But if you, like Chris, aren't willing to give up your manual, then stick with the best Porsche has made, the 4.0.

    After 6 911's with manuals, and another 6 Ferraris, Hondas, Bmws, I'm ready to give the new tech a whirl based on AP's confidence that this PDK box 'works' in the new GT3.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I am still amazed that at page 81 on this thread people are still fighting about the PKD vs manual.

    You must be all retarded, because the point is not which is better.  Framing the question this way is like asking whether blue is better than red or better than white.  It is stupid.

    The real point is that the PDK/MT is a matter of personal preference.  Therefore none or the PDK fans or the MT fans are to blame.  For a car like the GT3, which is nothing but a toy, it is even more so a question of personal preference, caprice, whim, you name it.  But in all cases it is a matter of customer preference.  The choice belongs to the customer and the customer is not to blame for his or her preference.

    So guys, members of this forum, if you continue to fight among yourselves you are targeting the wrong enemy!

    The only person to blame here is Porsche, of course.  They should not be that much anti-democratic, so overly arrogant, and perhaps also so lazy, to such a point as to impose their preference over those of customers.  If certain customers prefer a MT, they should make it.  Afterall, Porsche are masters in contriving endless lists of options to so-call “personalize” the cars they sell (customer translation:  make the customer spend more).  How come they now want to impose the PDK, such an important variable?  While not so long ago they were posing as the only true remaining sports cars makers with their MT-only GT3s!

    Do you think they can now make a 180-degree turn and get away with? without making us believe that they are taking us for fools?

    Therefore, those who prefer a MT should continue to complain to Porsche and Porsche should make such a feature available.  It does not matter whether Porsche believes the PDK is better than the MT.  It is not what Porsche thinks that matters.  It is what the customers believe that matters, because the customers, not Porsche, are buying the car.  Not doing so would be too arrogant and insulting to those customers who would be well advised to walk away from the brand.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    PBS2010:
    frayed:

    bhnyc, so you are saying speed is a relative thing, relative to the driver and to a specific car in his hands.  That no matter what, there will always be someone faster in the same car, or a different car.  Sure, I agree.

    But the fact remains that Porsche went PDK for  a variety of reasons (market appeal, usability, warranty issues, etc) but one of them was b/c during development the PDK box proved faster than the manual.  Modern automanuals have gotten so advanced that from an objective performance standpoint, they perform better.  It is hard to argue otherwise.

    But as Chris Harris said in other reviews, they represent a fundamental 'shift' in how the driver interfaces with the car, and for enthusiasts who have spent decades in cars with a manual box, and mastering heel toe, it is not a welcome  development.  There's less interaction, less mechanical interaction.  And for many folks, less fun.

    You ask if you should sell your 4.0 and buy a a new 3 cause it's faster.  Of course not if you don't like PDK.  If you are open to the idea, it's worth your time to evaluate it.  But if you, like Chris, aren't willing to give up your manual, then stick with the best Porsche has made, the 4.0.

    After 6 911's with manuals, and another 6 Ferraris, Hondas, Bmws, I'm ready to give the new tech a whirl based on AP's confidence that this PDK box 'works' in the new GT3.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I am still amazed that at page 81 on this thread people are still fighting about the PKD vs manual.

    You must be all retarded, because the point is not which is better.  Framing the question this way is like asking whether blue is better than red or better than white.  It is stupid.

    The real point is that the PDK/MT is a matter of personal preference.  Therefore none or the PDK fans or the MT fans are to blame.  For a car like the GT3, which is nothing but a toy, it is even more so a question of personal preference, caprice, whim, you name it.  But in all cases it is a matter of customer preference.  The choice belongs to the customer and the customer is not to blame for his or her preference.

    So guys, members of this forum, if you continue to fight among yourselves you are targeting the wrong enemy!

    The only person to blame here is Porsche, of course.  They should not be that much anti-democratic, so overly arrogant, and perhaps also so lazy, to such a point as to impose their preference over those of customers.  If certain customers prefer a MT, they should make it.  Afterall, Porsche are masters in contriving endless lists of options to so-call “personalize” the cars they sell (customer translation:  make the customer spend more).  How come they now want to impose the PDK, such an important variable?  While not so long ago they were posing as the only true remaining sports cars makers with their MT-only GT3s!

    Do you think they can now make a 180-degree turn and get away with? without making us believe that they are taking us for fools?

    Therefore, those who prefer a MT should continue to complain to Porsche and Porsche should make such a feature available.  It does not matter whether Porsche believes the PDK is better than the MT.  It is not what Porsche thinks that matters.  It is what the customers believe that matters, because the customers, not Porsche, are buying the car.  Not doing so would be too arrogant and insulting to those customers who would be well advised to walk away from the brand.


    Oh yeah, I'm retarded.  Thanks for your enlightening post.

    I was responding to bhnyc. and his statements about speed.  Is there something I wrote that you don't agree with or are you just trying to be a D-bag?

    Nor did I ever frame which is 'better.'


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The bottom line is this;

    MT requires more driver involvement;

    PDK is faster;

    PDK requires better driver ability because of increased speeds, later braking and maintaining car balance;

    PDK is more fun (listen or read what CH said about which is more fun);

    PDK is state of the art technology.

    Finally, Carlos you have the issue backwards. It is the MT people who are attacking Porsche and PDK enthusiast claiming we do not know how to drive, need nanny help and do not know how to drive a MT. I/we are only responding.

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    The bottom line is this;

    MT requires more driver involvement;

    PDK is faster;

    PDK requires better driver ability because of increased speeds, later braking and maintaining car balance;

    PDK is more fun (listen or read what CH said about which is more fun);

    PDK is state of the art technology.

    Finally, Carlos you have the issue backwards. It is the MT people who are attacking Porsche and PDK enthusiast claiming we do not know how to drive need nanny help and do not know how to drive a MT. I/we are only responding.

     

     

    The point you are missing is that despite what CH said in the video, he still prefers a manual.  Just as Pete Stout does, who co-tested that car in the video.

    It may be faster/better on track, but more fun?  I'll wager that to folks like me, after a long list of manuals, most of which I've tracked, I will find the PDK boring in normal driving, but more fun under hard charging street or track.  But unlike many die hard manual fans, I'm ready to take the leap.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The new GT3 is a great car. But it should have come with a manual gear box so the driver will have something to do other than watch Corvette tail lights.  Sorry, but outside of the Porsche club bubble in mixed marque track days the new GT3 will not be the winning  choice. Its weight and hp/torque still leave it at a disadvantage to those subproletariat Chevy V8's. Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
    nberry:

    The bottom line is this;

    MT requires more driver involvement;

    PDK is faster;

    PDK requires better driver ability because of increased speeds, later braking and maintaining car balance;

    PDK is more fun (listen or read what CH said about which is more fun);

    PDK is state of the art technology.

    Finally, Carlos you have the issue backwards. It is the MT people who are attacking Porsche and PDK enthusiast claiming we do not know how to drive need nanny help and do not know how to drive a MT. I/we are only responding.

     

     

    The point you are missing is that despite what CH said in the video, he still prefers a manual.  Just as Pete Stout does, who co-tested that car in the video. 

    No, Chris Harris and Pete Stout did not say they prefer manual, they said Porsche should offer manual, which is different.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    You missed a separate dialogue with Pete on rennlist in which he said b/c of the lack of a manual, it's no longer on his list of cars to own.  He made that clear.

    I believe in that thread, Pete mentioned Chris felt the same way, which is what drove the dialogue in his review that he had to differentiate b/t evaluating the car for what it is v. personal biases.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    JimFlat6:

    The new GT3 is a great car. But it should have come with a manual gear box so the driver will have something to do other than watch Corvette tail lights.  Sorry, but outside of the Porsche club bubble in mixed marque track days the new GT3 will not be the winning  choice. Its weight and hp/torque still leave it at a disadvantage to those subproletariat Chevy V8's. Smiley

    Correct.  One could purchase two Corvettes for near the price of 991 GT3 and have one set up as a track car and the other one as a daily driver.  That said, the Porsche is a better built car but the Corvette still offers amazing value in States, it even costs less than a Cayman.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:Finally, Carlos you have the issue backwards. It is the MT people who are attacking Porsche and PDK enthusiast claiming we do not know how to drive, need nanny help and do not know how to drive a MT. I/we are only responding.

     

    SAY WHAT!! I gotta say that this pisses me off Nick, I dare you to quote me saying something like that.

    Either you have such a huge chip in your shoulder that you see giants instead of windmills in anything in anyone says in favor of a manual tranny and imagine things or you are deliberately putting words into my mouth which I must say is pretty low Nick  I never said PDK drivers drive PDK because they can't drive a manual, that is the STUPEDEST thing I ever heard. So if my next 911 happens to have a PDK (I havent decided yet) then I can't drive a manual and need a nanny??? 


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Pete on the new GT3, who drove the car with Chris Harris:

    Originally Posted by stout View Post
    the verdict re: the decision not to offer a manual was unanimous: We all pined for three pedals, even if we recognized that Porsche will likely find more buyers with the 991 GT3 than it did with the 997s. Hence my one qualification. For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is an incredible car.

    But, without the option of a manual, I'm afraid the GT3 has fallen off my personal dream car list. It's been an interesting matter for me to ponder, both from a professional and a personal/philosophical standpoint...and I agree with Chris that there must be some separation of the two. pete

    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    JimFlat6:

    The new GT3 is a great car. But it should have come with a manual gear box so the driver will have something to do other than watch Corvette tail lights.  Sorry, but outside of the Porsche club bubble in mixed marque track days the new GT3 will not be the winning  choice. Its weight and hp/torque still leave it at a disadvantage to those subproletariat Chevy V8's. Smiley

    Correct.  One could purchase two Corvettes for near the price of 991 GT3 and have one set up as a track car and the other one as a daily driver.  That said, the Porsche is a better built car but the Corvette still offers amazing value in States, it even costs less than a Cayman.  

     

    Probably vette and gtr are both faster, especially in the hands of an average driver.  Tq and grip in the vette, and driver correcting super excellent handling inverse AWD and two big turbos tend to mask, or at least make up for driver slop.

    But you have to like how they drive.  Vette less precise, and the GTR more robotic.  If that doesn't bother you, save the money and buy one of these.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:

    Pete on the new GT3, who drove the car with Chris Harris:

    Originally Posted by stout View Post
    the verdict re: the decision not to offer a manual was unanimous: We all pined for three pedals, even if we recognized that Porsche will likely find more buyers with the 991 GT3 than it did with the 997s. Hence my one qualification. For those open to PDK, the new GT3 is an incredible car.

    But, without the option of a manual, I'm afraid the GT3 has fallen off my personal dream car list. It's been an interesting matter for me to ponder, both from a professional and a personal/philosophical standpoint...and I agree with Chris that there must be some separation of the two. pete

    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

    I have read this passage already (it was posted here a few pages back) and I then somehow understood it differently.  However I see what Pete means now, thanks for clarifying and correcting me. Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    nberry:Finally, Carlos you have the issue backwards. It is the MT people who are attacking Porsche and PDK enthusiast claiming we do not know how to drive, need nanny help and do not know how to drive a MT. I/we are only responding.

     

    SAY WHAT!! I gotta say that this pisses me off Nick, I dare you to quote me saying something like that.

    Either you have such a huge chip in your shoulder that you see giants instead of windmills in anything in anyone says in favor of a manual tranny and imagine things or you are deliberately putting words into my mouth which I must say is pretty low Nick  I never said PDK drivers drive PDK because they can't drive a manual, that is the STUPEDEST thing I ever heard. So if my next 911 happens to have a PDK (I havent decided yet) then I can't drive a manual and need a nanny??? 


    --

    Carlos, I did not say you or all MT people were attacking us. Clearly a considerable number have done so. All you need to do is read some of the other car sites.

    Frayed, CH said PDK was more fun to drive period! As to his preference, that does not mean a hill of beans to me. If PDK is faster, more fun and engaging on the track that is all that matters. Pete Stout and CH can have their MT if they can find one on a modern car.Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
    CGX car nut:
    JimFlat6:

    The new GT3 is a great car. But it should have come with a manual gear box so the driver will have something to do other than watch Corvette tail lights.  Sorry, but outside of the Porsche club bubble in mixed marque track days the new GT3 will not be the winning  choice. Its weight and hp/torque still leave it at a disadvantage to those subproletariat Chevy V8's. Smiley

    Correct.  One could purchase two Corvettes for near the price of 991 GT3 and have one set up as a track car and the other one as a daily driver.  That said, the Porsche is a better built car but the Corvette still offers amazing value in States, it even costs less than a Cayman.  

     

    Probably vette and gtr are both faster, especially in the hands of an average driver.  Tq and grip in the vette, and driver correcting super excellent handling inverse AWD and two big turbos tend to mask, or at least make up for driver slop.

    But you have to like how they drive.  Vette less precise, and the GTR more robotic.  If that doesn't bother you, save the money and buy one of these.

    Never said I preferred the Corvette or the GTR over the GT3.  I merely agreed as a reply that the Corvette represents value for its performance. I've driven a few Corvettes to know it is not my choice for road or track. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)


    Never said I preferred the Corvette or the GTR over the GT3.  I merely agreed as a reply that the Corvette represents value for its performance. I've driven a few Corvettes to know it is not my choice for road or track. 

     

    Nor did I imply that you would choose one of these two.  My follow-on point was the natural extension of your statement regarding the build quality of the Porsche v. the speed of the vette and robot.


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Corvettes aren't my first choice for much either...but if the GT3 PDK is only good because it is faster than a GT3 with a manual, but is still slower than other track oriented production cars, than what the hell is the point  of the GT3 really ????????  Since it will only "rule the road" so to speak, the advantages of the PDK arent really all that needed.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)


    Frayed, CH said PDK was more fun to drive period! As to his preference, that does not mean a hill of beans to me. If PDK is faster, more fun and engaging on the track that is all that matters. Pete Stout and CH can have their MT if they can find one on a modern car.Smiley

    Huh?

    He did not.  He said the GT3 should have a manual option; the last bastion of the manual gearbox! He went on to say it's a massive shame.  Despite being so much fun, he misses the manual.

    Not once did he say it was more fun than a manual.

    Lookit, I'm OK with the PDK.  But let's not twist words here.

     


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


     
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