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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Surely he has an email receipt or bank statement showing the payment to Tesla. It’s 2020 not *1984*!


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    That information appears in the original article posted on Jalopnik. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:

    Update to the story below.  This has blown up all over the Internet and you are one of the few, and that includes those posting on Electrek, the Tesla Cult stronghold, to have zero qualms about Tesla’s actions.  In fact you actually condone those actions.  The behavior of Tesla, with this actions, is reckless.

    Let me help you, repeat after me: Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong... Keep repeating obsessively until you reach enlightenment and join their ranks to see everything clearly now. I should warn you though side effects may include unusual appetite for human brains, sluggishness, abnormal gate, and blank stare.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:
    CGX car nut:

    Update to the story below.  This has blown up all over the Internet and you are one of the few, and that includes those posting on Electrek, the Tesla Cult stronghold, to have zero qualms about Tesla’s actions.  In fact you actually condone those actions.  The behavior of Tesla, with this actions, is reckless.

    Let me help you, repeat after me: Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong... Keep repeating obsessively until you reach enlightenment and join their ranks to see everything clearly now. I should warn you though side effects may include unusual appetite for human brains, sluggishness, abnormal gate, and blank stare.

    Almost coming to the conclusion that Tesla incorporates mind control pharmaceuticals into the interior and HVAC system of each car they build. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    This looks to be a case where the dealer who bought the car and then sold it on did not do adequate due diligence on what it was buying and then represented a car with features that were not part of the package. I would have to say that the dealer is the culpable in this case. Wasn't done maliciously but it's their problem they didn't check and took things at face value. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    SmileyCGX car nut:
    Carlos from Spain:
    CGX car nut:

    Update to the story below.  This has blown up all over the Internet and you are one of the few, and that includes those posting on Electrek, the Tesla Cult stronghold, to have zero qualms about Tesla’s actions.  In fact you actually condone those actions.  The behavior of Tesla, with this actions, is reckless.

    Let me help you, repeat after me: Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong... Keep repeating obsessively until you reach enlightenment and join their ranks to see everything clearly now. I should warn you though side effects may include unusual appetite for human brains, sluggishness, abnormal gate, and blank stare.

    Almost coming to the conclusion that Tesla incorporates mind control pharmaceuticals into the interior and HVAC system of each car they build. 

    Why not wait until the outcome? I think you guys are hilarious in ascribing motives to me when all you can see is what a piece of shit company it is?  Blowing up your minds rather than the internet. Trust me Tesla most likely knows what what paid for in each car better than you do. They don’t even name or describe the feature correctly. Auto steer is standard on all of them. Full self driving is the expensive feature. Often this has been turned on for weeks at a time as a free trial. My guess is that they thought the trial was permanent.  nonetheless  you guys are not just jumping to conclusions but your wishful thinking is far worse than the evilness you ascribe to Tesla. 
    I’m certain there is a good logical and very legal reason to do this. Tesla has nothing to gain by accidentally messing with customers. They do need to protect their revenue stream and work to sell their own used cars. Makes sense.  Your excited for nothing. Like the sudden acceleration crap and then it turned out that Tesla had redundant sensors on the throttle and could prove each case was driver error.  

    The negative hysteria about this topic is second only to a certain president and just as wrong headed and poorly proven.  Good fun to watch but I just don’t see the motivation to hate so much. Lol. Geez all I did was buy a car which I like and I am trying to share a positive experience.  Everyone who has ridden in it agrees. This is how I can tell you guys have zero idea what I am talking about. Once you drive one it will be fun to see you apologize but I’m not holding my breath. I doubt at this time you could allow yourself to like it which is a shame. You lose. Common problem with closed minds. 
     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    Two points - my reading comprehension is fine. I stated that Tesla must have had a record of what was actually paid for by the original customer and during an audit stuff that had not been paid for was removed. The used car dealer sold something that did not belong to the car.  There may have even been liability if the hardware was out of date. It bolsters the fact that it is best to buy used Tesla’s from Tesla. They do see to that and not unlike other makers like Ferrari. Etc. all of them. They all want you to extra for a cpo car. Tesla is getting better at selling parts for 3rd party repairs but they are notable for not helping or selling to repair shops they don’t approve of.  
     

    Next - my coworker paid $2k for the full self driving feature a while back when it was on sale. Good deal. The price keeps going up. 
    The $2k option to shave .5 seconds off was for all models other than the performance model. It had a recent power and range update for free dropping time to 2.9 to 60.  The long range dual motor has exactly the same motors and batteries as my performance model. They are just software limited. Everyone is aware of that. So cutting .5 sec in exchange for a bit of revenue is a brilliant idea and did not hurt the car at all. They are still way short of my car’s performance. Btw the base morel got the same $2k offer and it is now under 5 seconds to sixty. Not a bad deal for $37k

     

     

     

    Yes, it is a great deal! Smiley


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    Two points - my reading comprehension is fine. I stated that Tesla must have had a record of what was actually paid for by the original customer and during an audit stuff that had not been paid for was removed. The used car dealer sold something that did not belong to the car.  There may have even been liability if the hardware was out of date. It bolsters the fact that it is best to buy used Tesla’s from Tesla. They do see to that and not unlike other makers like Ferrari. Etc. all of them. They all want you to extra for a cpo car. Tesla is getting better at selling parts for 3rd party repairs but they are notable for not helping or selling to repair shops they don’t approve of.  
     

    Next - my coworker paid $2k for the full self driving feature a while back when it was on sale. Good deal. The price keeps going up. 
    The $2k option to shave .5 seconds off was for all models other than the performance model. It had a recent power and range update for free dropping time to 2.9 to 60.  The long range dual motor has exactly the same motors and batteries as my performance model. They are just software limited. Everyone is aware of that. So cutting .5 sec in exchange for a bit of revenue is a brilliant idea and did not hurt the car at all. They are still way short of my car’s performance. Btw the base morel got the same $2k offer and it is now under 5 seconds to sixty. Not a bad deal for $37k

     

     

     

    Yes, it is a great deal! Smiley

    That’s the first time I’ve seen someone charge more than Porsche for their Cruise Control option... ;)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:
    SmileyCGX car nut:
    Carlos from Spain:
    CGX car nut:

    Update to the story below.  This has blown up all over the Internet and you are one of the few, and that includes those posting on Electrek, the Tesla Cult stronghold, to have zero qualms about Tesla’s actions.  In fact you actually condone those actions.  The behavior of Tesla, with this actions, is reckless.

    Let me help you, repeat after me: Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong.... Tesla can do no wrong... Keep repeating obsessively until you reach enlightenment and join their ranks to see everything clearly now. I should warn you though side effects may include unusual appetite for human brains, sluggishness, abnormal gate, and blank stare.

    Almost coming to the conclusion that Tesla incorporates mind control pharmaceuticals into the interior and HVAC system of each car they build. 

    Why not wait until the outcome? I think you guys are hilarious in ascribing motives to me when all you can see is what a piece of shit company it is?  Blowing up your minds rather than the internet. Trust me Tesla most likely knows what what paid for in each car better than you do. They don’t even name or describe the feature correctly. Auto steer is standard on all of them. Full self driving is the expensive feature. Often this has been turned on for weeks at a time as a free trial. My guess is that they thought the trial was permanent.  nonetheless  you guys are not just jumping to conclusions but your wishful thinking is far worse than the evilness you ascribe to Tesla. 
    I’m certain there is a good logical and very legal reason to do this. Tesla has nothing to gain by accidentally messing with customers. They do need to protect their revenue stream and work to sell their own used cars. Makes sense.  Your excited for nothing. Like the sudden acceleration crap and then it turned out that Tesla had redundant sensors on the throttle and could prove each case was driver error.  

    The negative hysteria about this topic is second only to a certain president and just as wrong headed and poorly proven.  Good fun to watch but I just don’t see the motivation to hate so much. Lol. Geez all I did was buy a car which I like and I am trying to share a positive experience.  Everyone who has ridden in it agrees. This is how I can tell you guys have zero idea what I am talking about. Once you drive one it will be fun to see you apologize but I’m not holding my breath. I doubt at this time you could allow yourself to like it which is a shame. You lose. Common problem with closed minds. 
     

    Hyperventilate much?  Once again, the car was purchased at auction by the used car dealer and the original Monroney sticker had the FSD option listed.  The used car dealer claims to have driven the car and FSD functioned.  The dealer also claims to have sold numerous Teslas before.  By selling the Tesla at auction, Tesla does not set the price, the auction participants do so your analysis falls flat.  

    Tesla’s actions implies that some of the software functionality, including FSD, is subject to an EULA and every future owner needs to pay Tesla for the use of that option that was originally purchased on the car.  No other automaker behaves this way.  
     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    But this behaviour is very typical of the current software license model.

    You can buy a brand new physical CD with software on it, install it and use it.

    You can also sell the CD second hand to the next guy, but when he installs it and try to use it, the publisher charge him a 2nd time for the license. Game publishers are using this very thing to kill GameStop's 2nd hand game market.

    Tesla is treating their cars the same way, the physical car itself it's just a platform for distributing their software. 

    Which means there is no resale value of Teslas anymore. 

    This is a dangerous path that Tesla is taking.

     


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I am thinking that the only reasonable way to sell a used Tesla would be to request a current window sticker direct from Tesla based on the VIN. The original window sticker could easily list features that the original purchaser declined to buy and were supposed to be disabled. Failure to immediately disable the features on the part of Tesla does not make the features a permanent part of the car nor does the first window sticker.

    Soon there will be a VIN app that will only charge about a dollar and then you'll know.

    In the short term though, it is a bit of a shocking new reality.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Gladstone:

    I am thinking that the only reasonable way to sell a used Tesla would be to request a current window sticker direct from Tesla based on the VIN. The original window sticker could easily list features that the original purchaser declined to buy and were supposed to be disabled. Failure to immediately disable the features on the part of Tesla does not make the features a permanent part of the car nor does the first window sticker.

    Soon there will be a VIN app that will only charge about a dollar and then you'll know.

    In the short term though, it is a bit of a shocking new reality.

    The window sticker concept makes no difference. These features may be purchased after the sale or even turned on for a trial.  They do track all the options you buy for your car along the way. Never has any who purchased an option had it taken away.  This is a case of an option that was turned on without being paid for in the first place. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:

    But this behaviour is very typical of the current software license model.

    You can buy a brand new physical CD with software on it, install it and use it.

    You can also sell the CD second hand to the next guy, but when he installs it and try to use it, the publisher charge him a 2nd time for the license. Game publishers are using this very thing to kill GameStop's 2nd hand game market.

    Tesla is treating their cars the same way, the physical car itself it's just a platform for distributing their software. 

    Which means there is no resale value of Teslas anymore. 

    This is a dangerous path that Tesla is taking.

     

    Wow. Don’t know how to even start here. You are taking one in incident of an audit disabling a feature - likely for an extremely good reason, and pretending that you can’t sell your used Tesla because they will remove features you paid for after the sale.  Come on now. That is the biggest load of crap ever.  You know that is not true.  Ever. Wishful thinking for the competition maybe. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    boytronic:
    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    Two points - my reading comprehension is fine. I stated that Tesla must have had a record of what was actually paid for by the original customer and during an audit stuff that had not been paid for was removed. The used car dealer sold something that did not belong to the car.  There may have even been liability if the hardware was out of date. It bolsters the fact that it is best to buy used Tesla’s from Tesla. They do see to that and not unlike other makers like Ferrari. Etc. all of them. They all want you to extra for a cpo car. Tesla is getting better at selling parts for 3rd party repairs but they are notable for not helping or selling to repair shops they don’t approve of.  
     

    Next - my coworker paid $2k for the full self driving feature a while back when it was on sale. Good deal. The price keeps going up. 
    The $2k option to shave .5 seconds off was for all models other than the performance model. It had a recent power and range update for free dropping time to 2.9 to 60.  The long range dual motor has exactly the same motors and batteries as my performance model. They are just software limited. Everyone is aware of that. So cutting .5 sec in exchange for a bit of revenue is a brilliant idea and did not hurt the car at all. They are still way short of my car’s performance. Btw the base morel got the same $2k offer and it is now under 5 seconds to sixty. Not a bad deal for $37k

     

     

     

    Yes, it is a great deal! Smiley

    That’s the first time I’ve seen someone charge more than Porsche for their Cruise Control option... ;)

    I hope you do realize that adaptive cruise control is free and standard. Self steering which allows the car to basically drive itself with supervision is also FREE.  For the $2k she got Full Self Driving. In the near future the car will be totally autonomous. Waiting for you to mock that advance because for $2k there is not much on the Porsche options list and self driving is not available at any cost. Porsche the greater engineering company. Oh yeah the Tesla options are so much more expensive.  The lack of information and huge desire to be a big spender may be a problem for some. Smiley

    Do you guys even get that for a Model S and X supercharging is free. Even if you buy some of the used ones.  How much is Porsche charging for they supercharger and how many are there?  Will I be able to cross the country for free? Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:
    Gladstone:

    I am thinking that the only reasonable way to sell a used Tesla would be to request a current window sticker direct from Tesla based on the VIN. The original window sticker could easily list features that the original purchaser declined to buy and were supposed to be disabled. Failure to immediately disable the features on the part of Tesla does not make the features a permanent part of the car nor does the first window sticker.

    Soon there will be a VIN app that will only charge about a dollar and then you'll know.

    In the short term though, it is a bit of a shocking new reality.

    The window sticker concept makes no difference. These features may be purchased after the sale or even turned on for a trial.  They do track all the options you buy for your car along the way. Never has any who purchased an option had it taken away.  This is a case of an option that was turned on without being paid for in the first place. 

    I'm thinking you might have missed the point. There has to be some sort of "window sticker concept" because you CANNOT believe the features you are buying will continue to exist just because they are currently present on the car.

    That is your point as I understand it; that Tesla is perfectly correct to remove features from your used Tesla purchase even though you relied on their existence and presence at the time of your purchase. I propose an electronic and current window sticker from Tesla to insure that their audit agrees with what you believe that you are purchasing since the original window sticker could be out of date information wise. How would you propose protecting the used Tesla buyer from surprise feature deletion ?  or is buying used no longer even a consideration of yours ?

    Cheers Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Why aren’t these Tesla owners not happy driving the world’s great car?

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Pop Up In Areas Not Impacted By Road Salt

    We have the first case of paint issues in the UK and some reports from California now too.

    Gustavo Henrique Ruffo

    Everyone that ever reported a paint problem with their Tesla Model 3s has been accused of offroading them. Or of being reckless with their cars, even the brand-new ones. Some heard that this only happened due to salt and because they lived in icy climates. Tesla is even offering mudflaps that make things worsein Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland. That theory fails when even sunny California is getting that. Unfortunately, Benjamin Haley witnessed in a very personal note, as the video above shows.

     

    Gallery: Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

     

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    25 Photos

     

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    “I bought the car in November of 2018. All the damage was done last winter. I've been off work taking care of my wife this winter so I haven't driven the roads this year to cause even more damage to the car.”

    More Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems News:

    You can see Haley’s car is clean but looks full of sand. Well, that’s not sand: it’s a severe case of stone and sand chipping.

    “I noticed it about a month after they started putting it down. By that time, the damage was already done. I've contacted and shown the San Rafael, CA SC. They said ‘nope sorry.’ Then I called them again just recently and again they said ‘no, not coved by warranty.’”

     

     

    Haley is another flabbergast customer that has had cars for a long time and driven then over the same roads without the same sort of deterioration.

    “Myself and hundreds of other drivers drive over red cinder every day when it's slick or snowing. I’ve done so for many years with no problems. Never a concern with other cars. People would go crazy if this happened to all cars around here.” 

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    We warned Haley about the recent changes Tesla made to shield against paint issue claims like his. He was already aware of them.

    “I was just looking at the warranty tonight. They know for a fact they have paint problems. I just want mine fixed.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    As we did with Visanji T. Gala and his accident with his brand-new Model S, we told Haley about the reactions making his story appear here at InsideEVs could provoke. He did not back away.

    “People can attack all they want. I can show on Google Maps exactly where they put down the cinders when it's slick or snowing. The damage happened so fast it was crazy! None of my cars or my coworker's cars get this type of damage. I have never taken my car down a gravel road.” 

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    Again, it is a tough situation for a Tesla fan to endure, especially one going through so much besides this. Haley only wants Tesla to be upfront.

    “I love the car and hate to put up a bad video up about it. Not sure if you ever heard of ‘The Trunk Shield.’ I designed it to keep my things safe in our trunks from theft.” 

     

     

    As you can see, he loves his Model 3. That is also the case for Veronika Skcih, who belongs to several Tesla groups on Facebook. She posted this in one of them.

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    Skcih also seems to live in California, and she has done as Tesla’s manual says, washing her car manually. Apparently, that did as much damage as washing it any other way.

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    We tried to contact Skcih but have not heard back from her so far. If she replies to our messages, we’ll let you know more about this “bubbly” problem. If you also happen to have something like this, get in touch with us. 

    The first case in the UK

    The UK is not exactly a sunny place, but it is not known for being cold and snowy as well. The Tesla Model 3 was presented there in June 2019. We thought it would be too soon for the car to have the same issues it is getting in other parts of the world, but it wasn’t. Ask Ben Trudgill about that. He brought us the first case there, but there are probably others we still have not heard about.

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    If you think Trudgill was one of the first to get the Model 3 there, you’ll be negatively surprised to hear he only got his car on November 15: that has barely completed three months in his hands.

    “On the original pickup date, November 4, 2019, the car came with light scratches down the side, and a small chip on the right-hand side, in front of the rear wheel. It also had a few clear coat drips and oversprays. The most serious issue was that the boot did not shut. Tesla then kept the car to be fixed by the service team.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    That made Trudgill wait until the date we first mentioned.

    “On November 15, I picked the car up after being assured everything had been completed other than the one chip which would have to be resprayed in a body shop. As it turns out, they hadn't touched the light scratches at all. I also noticed that the car was covered in severe orange peel.

    I was told by Tesla delivery that they would set up a service appointment and a body shop appointment for me and that I did not have to do anything."

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    The UK Model 3 owner waited for the appointment. And waited. And waited.

    “About a week later, after hearing nothing, I set up an appointment for January 10, 2020, on the app so I could add photos and some other details.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    The number of issues with his EV at that point is disappointing.

    “Creaks came from the dashboard, rear left door seal needed refitting, door mirrors being glitchy and sometimes not opening fully – somehow fixed themselves – and windows that sometimes opened an inch while it was locked – also fixed itself? The lights also have a lot of fog in them.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UKTesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    We have mentioned some of these issues in our guide to buy a new Model 3. The one of the rear left door seal in need of refitting reminds us of the A-pillar rust issue. One of the signs of this problem is the rear left door alignment. 

    Trudgill was surprised once again, also for the worst.

    “I received an automatic text from Tesla saying that, as I had requested paintwork issues to be fixed outside of their 100-mile warranty, they would not touch the car and they gave me a list of approved body shops. I then had to ring through the delivery centre to get passed to service to speak to them. I couldn't get through so, in the end, I had to drive to Birmingham from Leicester – about 1hr15 – to speak to them in person. They assured me it was a mistake and would all be sorted. They also said they hadn't heard anything from the delivery team about the issues. The service appointment was also moved to February 5 to ensure the body shop was available.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    Trudgill tried to act in anticipation. That was when he noticed the issue that brought his story here.

    “So I wanted to drop my car off on the 4th so I did not have to have a day off work. I had the car cleaned on the 3rd in the evening. I then spotted on the rear left. Right in front of the rear wheels, there were hundreds of small scratches in the paint. The clear coat around this area feels softer than in the rest of the car, which I suspect is the problem, and grit from the winter roads has scratched the paint.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    When he got to the appointment, he told the technician about the problem.

    “Their paint specialist confirmed that the clear coat should be hard by now and that this should not have occurred. I was given the usual talk of how Tesla paint has improved massively and that it is on par with their competitors, as he had worked on BMW paint before moving to Tesla. I also requested that they obtain some of the mudguards and install them if possible to help prevent further deterioration. They said they would do all they could themselves and then take to the body shop for they couldn't do themselves.” 

    Trudgill expected to get his car as he should have when first laid his hands on it.

    “At about 4 PM on the 5th, I received a call saying the vast majority of the work had been completed, but the hundreds of scratches in the paint near the wheels would not be covered and they would not repaint them, even though there is a larger chip in that same panel that was there on delivery.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    Trudgill still has not taken his car back.

    “I have no idea how well the stuff has been done but can update you when I find out so you have a more complete story.”

    With all that going on, what’s Trudgill’s opinion on Tesla?

    “That’s pretty bad! Once I have it in writing from Tesla that they won't do anything, I am going to contact our motoring ombudsmen. It is a government-run service that provides free legal advice for things like this. They can even bring a case against them. Failing that, I also have motor legal insurance so have that route if I want.”

    Tesla Model 3 Paint Problems Now Hit Consumers In California And UK

    What about the car? Would Trudgill buy it again?

    “I'm really in two minds about the car. The car itself is fantastic and I love driving it, but the paint is shocking and the service via the app thing is very stressful. If I would have known about how this would go, I would not have accepted the car and taken a refund.”

    Sadly, more and more Tesla owners are getting in touch with us with the same feeling. The Facebook group with their complaints gets bigger every day. Tesla does not talk to the press, but the company should at least speak to its customers to reassure they have made a good choice. It is much better than keep trying to prove they haven’t.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:

    But this behaviour is very typical of the current software license model.

    You can buy a brand new physical CD with software on it, install it and use it.

    You can also sell the CD second hand to the next guy, but when he installs it and try to use it, the publisher charge him a 2nd time for the license. Game publishers are using this very thing to kill GameStop's 2nd hand game market.

    Tesla is treating their cars the same way, the physical car itself it's just a platform for distributing their software. 

    Which means there is no resale value of Teslas anymore. 

    This is a dangerous path that Tesla is taking.

     

    Wow. Don’t know how to even start here. You are taking one in incident of an audit disabling a feature - likely for an extremely good reason, and pretending that you can’t sell your used Tesla because they will remove features you paid for after the sale.  Come on now. That is the biggest load of crap ever.  You know that is not true.  Ever. Wishful thinking for the competition maybe. 

     

    Say you ordered the base seats in your 911 and Porsche incorrectly installed 18 way or race bucket in your car, do you think Porsche would send a team to come to your house and remove the add on seats? 

    This was a mistake Tesla made and they don't want to owe up to it.

    Plus, who says they won't ask me to pay for FSD again say if I buy your Model 3 off your hand and Tesla say while the car originally purchased by you have FSD option, I didn't pay them for the option and they will remotely remove it from my purchase. 


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    That’s exactly what has happened.  Tesla through its actions, is notifying the consumer that several options are no longer transferable to future owners.  This negatively impacts resale value. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    A recent article from EE (electrical engineering) Times on s/w, OTA, testing, bug fixing, and Eulas.

    When Tesla met Eula: a Disaster Story

    Brian Santo10.29.2019

    Some in the high tech industry mistake irresponsibility for “disruption.” We can’t let those people run the auto industry.

    The automotive industry is being “disrupted” by the electronics industry, and together they’re on the verge of doing something dangerous and irresponsible. As car makers and their high-tech suppliers imbue motor vehicles with increasing levels of autonomy, they are heading toward absolving themselves of all responsibility for their products. Tesla and its cheerleaders are pushing the issue right now. It’s behavior that should not be tolerated.

    Corporations have long practiced the art of limiting their legal culpability. Is there anyone unfamiliar with the advisory to “use at your own risk”? Kitchen cutlery, playground equipment, sewing machines — there are any number of products that have some inherent element of danger. And it is eminently reasonable to expect people to use such products with caution and be responsible for what happens when using them.

    There are other products, such as chainsaws, firearms, and chemical sprayers, which if operated improperly can be a danger not only to the user but to others as well. Even so, the operator is still largely responsible — again, reasonably so. As part of that responsibility it is also reasonable to expect the user to maintain such products so that they function properly and are safe — keep them oiled, store them unloaded, use as directed. 

    Then there is a separate category reserved for products too large, complex, and sophisticated that their safe operation is beyond the control of their operators — systems that are too complex for the user to be expected to maintain and be entirely responsible for, and products which can be dangerous to anyone who happens to be in, on, or near (purposefully or merely coincidentally). Responsibility for airplanes reasonably goes beyond pilots and includes ground crews, airlines, airports, the manufacturers and government overseers. It’s similar for explosives and demolition experts, and construction cranes and their operators, for example.

    Motor vehicles have long been in the category of products which, when operated improperly, can be a danger to others. For the most part, individual drivers are entirely responsible for the operation of their vehicles, and also for their maintenance.

    But upon adding autonomous functions, motor vehicles shift into that third category — or they should. Vehicles with autonomy become too complex for drivers alone to be responsible for. And that’s where the worst of Silicon Valley comes in.  

     ALT TEXT HERE

    Over the years, the technology industry has achieved something extraordinary: it treats its customers as guinea pigs and it makes them happy about it. There are millions upon millions of people — smartphone users and gamers — who have grown up eager to be beta testers, happy to risk getting hung up on flaws in both software and hardware in exchange for the honor of access to a product prior to its availability to the average consumer.

    App culture has got consumers comfortable with software errors. “There’s a bug? Someone will report it and do a patch overnight. No problem!” Of course, that same culture encourages some companies to tolerate slapdash code-writing and to adopt a cavalier attitude when it comes to product testing. “Of course, there’ll be a bunch of bugs! Nobody cares! We’ll patch ‘em later!”

    The fix-it-later mentality has become acceptable, especially when the product is software.

    There isn’t much damage that bug-ridden software can lead to on a consumer electronics device. But bug-riddled software in a vehicle (or other autonomous system) can lead to physical injury and death. That's a key distinction that seems to be shrugged off by technology geeks who treat the fix-it-later way of doing things as an intrinsic element of technological progress.

    It is not. Commercializing defectiveproducts is sloppy and irresponsible, and nothing more. That sloppiness and irresponsibility has been tolerable — acceptable, even — because it hasn’t had any serious consequences. Yet.

    Junko Yoshida wrote about Tesla’s Smart Summon feature. It’s a Level 4 feature, which ordinarily would mean that the OEM (in this case Tesla) is largely responsible for anything that goes wrong when it's activated. But Tesla is pretending it’s a Level 2 feature, which means Tesla is shifting responsibility to Tesla customers for anything that goes wrong. Semicast analyst Colin Barnden told Yoshida he thinks Smart Summon is just a gimmick, meant to show off (their conversation on the topic is in a recent podcast: AVs and the Blame Game ● Indian IC Industry Ascendent ● The Artistry of AI).

    But I’m of a more conspiratorial bent. Is it a gimmick? Yes. Is it just a gimmick? No, I don’t think so. I think it’s Tesla practicing to see what our tolerance is for shifting what should be Tesla’s responsibility to Tesla drivers.

    So far, given Tesla fanboy reaction, it’s working.

    One of the most insidious practices mastered by the high-tech industry is the imposition of end user licensing agreements. EULAs tend to be pages-long masterpieces of mind-numbing legalese, much of which is often devoted to companies absolving themselves completely of any imaginable responsibility, liability, or culpability of any kind for any possible shortcoming in the functioning or operation of their products. Because they’re unreadable, nobody reads them, but agreeing to them is obligatory, and this is how EULAs have come to be seen as trivial.

    They are not trivial.

    I think it is inevitable that an automotive OEM — most likely one of the “innovative” high-tech companies that prides itself on “disruption” — is going to try to get away with foisting EULAs on their customers, absolving themselves of responsibility for the operation of their Levels 3- to-5 autonomous vehicles, vehichles that should be considered, by anyone sensible, in the same category as jet aircraft or sticks of dynamite.  

    That avenue should be blocked off now, before it’s too late. If it’s not done by common agreement now, it will have to be done by legislation later, and it will have to be legislated at the Federal level. It can start at the state level (California often leads in this area), but if safety regulation remains isolated with the states, we end up with a patchwork of safety regulations. At that point we don’t have safety; we just have more legal mess waiting to happen.

    I’m worried that we, as a society, have become so habituated to being beta guinea pigs, and to reflexively agreeing EULAs, that we’ll end up letting auto OEMs foist off upon us the legal responsibility for the operation of autonomous devices — making us liable for risks that we couldn’t possibly be truly responsible for unless we mindlessly and stupidly volunteer to assume them. That will end in sorrow.

    Brian Santo

    Brian Santo is Editor-in-Chief of EE Times. He has been writing about technology for over 30 years, for a number of publications including Electronic News, IEEE Spectrum, and CED; this is his second stint with EE Times (the first was 1989-1997). A former holder of a Radio Telephone Third Class Operator license, he once worked as an engineer at WWWG-FM. He is based in Portland, OR.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    For the $2k she got Full Self Driving. In the near future the car will be totally autonomous.

    Near future ... Musl has been saying that since 2016 promising it by 2017, you Tesla fan boys are to funny.

      https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/driverless-tesla-will-travel-l-nyc-2017-says-musk-n670206

    Truth is she didn't get FSD for $2k, she got the privilige to finance for free Tesla's FSD R&D for a promise of FSD that will likely come by the time her car wont be on the road anymore  or may never even come without a hardware upgrade and more sensors that ALL other players developing FSD are using like Lidar because they all believe is needed for FSD.

    https://emerj.com/ai-adoption-timelines/self-driving-car-timeline-themselves-top-11-automakers/

    Everybody is pushing back the timeline for FSD upon realising how hard is the last step for FSD, all except Tesla because they "pre-sell" it to their minions who buy all the bs and repeat the "next year for sure" every year. Robotaxis was this year want it?

    Waiting for you to mock that advance because for $2k there is not much on the Porsche options list and self driving is not available at any cost. Porsche the greater engineering company.

    Self driving is on the bottom of the wish list for the typical Taycan customer, much further bellow than real world performance, reliability of performance, quality build, quality interior, sportiness, etc as opposed to the typical Tesla client. Different products for different needs.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    You guys are right!  Omg. The paint is actually just finger paint. The car is falling apart and just yesterday they took one of my dual motors!  Next they will take one of my four wheels because I can’t prove it four with four when I paid for it because they were not on the window sticker. 
     

    Let me guess. You guys have never owned or driven one?  Still? Ask yourself - why would I put up with all your shit - it’s because I care about you guys and you are simply a bit over the edge and missing out as a result. Get one or a test drive. 

    Gladstone - in an age where electronic features can be added (sold or previewed) long after the sale the concept of an original window sticker for there at the time of original sale does not work if anything was added after the sale.  Tesla maintains a DB showing exactly what each car is supposed to have and it appears they routinely kill off features which their audits show have not been paid for. Might be good to wait for the court case or proof of any kind. Also more than one incident would help. Lol.  One can imagine many reasons why this function is required.  Insiders can turn on features for friends or for profit under the table or like I mentioned a free trial may have gone out and the return may have been avoided somehow by the owner.  
    Do any of you really, really seriously think that Tesla stands anything to gain by removing items or features people have paid for?  If so you don’t understand retail and customer service at all and wishing Tesla did something that stupid shows the extent you all have lost the plot ages ago. I can’t count the number of personal attacks on me because I like a car.  Grow up 

    btw resale on used Model 3 is awesome  I could sell mine for more than what I paid  

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    You guys are right!  Omg. The paint is actually just finger paint. The car is falling apart and just yesterday they took one of my dual motors!  Next they will take one of my four wheels because I can’t prove it four with four when I paid for it because they were not on the window sticker. 
     

    Let me guess. You guys have never owned or driven one?  Still? Ask yourself - why would I put up with all your shit - it’s because I care about you guys and you are simply a bit over the edge and missing out as a result. Get one or a test drive. 

    Gladstone - in an age where electronic features can be added (sold or previewed) long after the sale the concept of an original window sticker for there at the time of original sale does not work if anything was added after the sale.  Tesla maintains a DB showing exactly what each car is supposed to have and it appears they routinely kill off features which their audits show have not been paid for. Might be good to wait for the court case or proof of any kind. Also more than one incident would help. Lol.  One can imagine many reasons why this function is required.  Insiders can turn on features for friends or for profit under the table or like I mentioned a free trial may have gone out and the return may have been avoided somehow by the owner.  
    Do any of you really, really seriously think that Tesla stands anything to gain by removing items or features people have paid for?  If so you don’t understand retail and customer service at all and wishing Tesla did something that stupid shows the extent you all have lost the plot ages ago. I can’t count the number of personal attacks on me because I like a car.  Grow up 

    btw resale on used Model 3 is awesome  I could sell mine for more than what I paid  

     

     

    Could it be that someone forgot to enter the correct entry into that said database? 

    Can Tesla proof that their database is correctly maintained?

    Would Tesla admit publicly that they fucked up and forgot to enter the proper spec into the database?

    Right now there is only proof that when Tesla let the car crosses the auction line it has FSD. Also proof that when the dealer bought said car from auction it also have FSD.

    The option doesn't cost Tesla a penny, they could have easily just add the option back to the database and be done with it and avoid all the bad publicity. Or they could say they added it back in goodwill and gain positive publicity.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Correct. Which is why it is highly likely there is very little meat in this story.  Again it might be best to wait and see the outcome rather than assume some of the end of days scenarios stated here. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    ...........


    Gladstone - in an age where electronic features can be added (sold or previewed) long after the sale the concept of an original window sticker for there at the time of original sale does not work if anything was added after the sale.  Tesla maintains a DB showing exactly what each car is supposed to have and it appears they routinely kill off features which their audits show have not been paid for.

     

    "Gladstone:

    I am thinking that the only reasonable way to sell a used Tesla would be to request a current window sticker direct from Tesla based on the VIN"

    The current window sticker from Tesla was my idea. The original window sticker is only applicable to the original buyer.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Ring in the wet...indecision.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV1LTtqVbA0

    and the F1 track:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omQ2yCuVgOc


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Tim Schrick (German with English subtitles)

    #Porsche Taycan Turbo S // Tim Schrick // Bilster Berg // english subtitles

     

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Der-Schwabe:

    Tim Schrick (German with English subtitles)

    #Porsche Taycan Turbo S // Tim Schrick // Bilster Berg // english subtitles

     

     

     

     


     
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