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    Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Dear all,

    The past month has been kind of a weird one.  I've been helping my father in Law in advertising on Mobile.de the sale of 1 of his 2 Ferraris.  He has a 458 Speciale, which is basically parked with us at home in Cyprus, and a Pista on order which was supposed to arrive in October, now delayed until December.  He needs to sell on of the vehicles as he just doesn't have the space for both.

    I have placed an ad for both cars on Mobile.de as he isn't really bothered which one he sells.  The funny/weird/scam part comes in here, I get contacted for the Pista two weeks ago by a gentleman who claims he represents a buyer and gives me the buyers details, company name, and makes claims that they are big bussiness men. The company is called www.wainwrightsinclair-investment.com and are based out of Scotland.  This is were the first red flag comes up: the guy is claiming his boss/partner wants the car to use for advertising his company, and that this person loves the Spec, and has no issue with regards to the price, which we have placed at 40k over list (doesn't even want to negotiate). I then proceed to explain to him that the car is LHD and not RHD for Scotland, which he also doesn't mind.  His only condition is to meet me in Milan as he has business there(Another Red Flag), to agree to terms of the sale, including a sum to be paid separate from the contracted price as to lower the value of the vehicle officially for whatever reason.  

    I began to check regarding the company online, and the financials were posted and they were laughable, then I google located the address in Scotland which also led me to a shady place of business in a residential neighborhood, and then calling the number there is no ringing nor an automated reply.  I called again the next day and it rang as if it was forwarded to another line (obviously this is a scam), but I'm trying to understand it.  Then the same person who claimed he worked at the company called me back and said that I the company told him that I called, so I played along and said that I can meet him and his boss in Athens (as I'm going there anyways) or he can come to meet me in Cyprus as I'm not willing to travel simply to discuss the particulars of a sale, which is something I can do over the phone.  I also told him that I also require a copy of the potential buyers passport and proof of funds document, to make sure the query is real, before I met them.  This is where he began to panic, and he told me, that the car isn't even physically available to see, so why do we need to meet in Cyprus.  I told, him that he needs to provide me with proof that his query is real, and then I will show him the contract of sale and if he wants to be certain I gave him the number for the official dealer I purchased the car from.  I finally told him I don't know what kind of scam your trying to pull, but I''m not biting and hung up.

    So a week after I get an inquiry from another person from mobile.de, this time for the 458 Speciale.  The gentleman calls me from a number in Belgium, and also claims he is buying this car for someone else.  He then asks some questions about the car and the vehicle particulars, and says that he has a contact at Ferrari and wants to check if the vehicle has been accidented or not.  We spoke a few times over the phone and his french was excellent, again, there is no issue with the price, (we have it priced competitively so no issues here, and Belgium is LHD so no issues there). He said he needed a few days and then he would get back to me.  Low and behold today he sends me a message saying that his client wants the car and has no issues with anything,  except  (You guessed it!!) for the fact that he wants to pay a sum of the total  outside the official contract and that he wants to meet in Milan, and discuss the particulars of the sale.  I'm very curious how this scam works? Is it a kidnapping scam, where they lure individuals they believe have money to a location they control, with the goal of kidnapping them or something?  Has anyone come accross this before??

    The Belgian company is as follows....    www.immo-meyers.com

     

     

    Regards

     

    Moser   

     


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    The Wainwright Sinclair link you have given doesn’t seem to connect and looking on Companies House, the UK official database for registered companies I cannot find a business named Wainwright Sinclair Smiley

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/
    --

     

    Porsche Boxster 981 GTS Carrara white / VW Golf GTI 5dr DSG Tornado Red

     



    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

     Your spelling threw me off! Smiley StClair rather than Sinclair....Perhaps also why the link didn’t work!

     Still the company exists you should be able to view information abou directors, financial results and stability Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster 981 GTS Carrara white / VW Golf GTI 5dr DSG Tornado Red

     


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    i've sent you the link to all the directors and the financials, which are literaly 0 for 2017 and 2018 lol


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Friends of mine had a similar experience with real estate. The scam was, that the "man in den middle" asked for a commission in cash right before the notary appointment


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Interesting..... the lengths people go through....


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Moser:

    i've sent you the link to all the directors and the financials, which are literaly 0 for 2017 and 2018 lol

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC515195

    A “micro company”....may be entirely legitimate of course Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster 981 GTS Carrara white / VW Golf GTI 5dr DSG Tornado Red

     


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    schmoell:

    Friends of mine had a similar experience with real estate. The scam was, that the "man in den middle" asked for a commission in cash right before the notary appointment

    This. I heard of the same scam where people want to buy a house, but wish to pay part of the sum outside of the contract, some sort of money laundry. Then the selling party needs to pay a commission (mostly a percentage of the black sum) in order to receive the money.

    I guess they go after houses and luxury cars because the amounts of money they go for are high, and therefore the percentages are high as well.
    The easiest tell: if they offer to price (or even higher) without any negotiation, it’s often a scam.

     

     


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Funnily enough I got confronted with time wasters concerning the sale of a car today as well. Long story short, I'm probably selling the 300 SEL (more on that in that thread soon) and I'm contacted by a guy through an acquaintance of mine. He sends me a couple of voice messages asking very peculiar questions about the car to which I'm prompted to ask that acquaintance 'is that guy for real, sounds a bit fishy to me?'. After that, the guy feels the need to prove himself and starts sending me photos of 'his collection'. 50% of the photos I recognize as being US-spec cars, a quick search indeed confirms they are part of a collection over at Rennlist. 

    Not a scam, but what is wrong with people... Why go through that effort to waste someone's time, in order to achieve what in the end? mail


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Moser, the goal in the setting you're explaining is mainly focused, I guess, is mainly focused on that cash payment you're mentioning. They would want to meet you in a luxurious setting, impress you with it to spark your interest/confidence. Then the cash payment comes in to play, which they would then want to have changed into a different currency for example or want to have returned to them by wire transfer in case the deal "falls through". You'd be left with fake cash and they're off. Apparently these requests are often made in real estate sales as well. Wonder if anyone ever fell for it... Smiley


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Thanks Porker, ya I figured as much after messaging the guy that I'm not willing to go, and he said he would reimburse me if his client didn't buy the car for my time and my trip. hahahahha people are really annoying sometimes. Good luck with your car sale


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    The world is full of fraudsters. This is why I only deal through main dealers where I have longstanding relationships. Sure one pays for this peace of mind with lower gains ( or bigger losses mostly!) as they need a margin. Plus in my case and I suspect many if not all here  - a lot of time that I do not have.


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Moser:

    Thanks Porker, ya I figured as much after messaging the guy that I'm not willing to go, and he said he would reimburse me if his client didn't buy the car for my time and my trip. hahahahha people are really annoying sometimes. Good luck with your car sale

    Yes, they are after that "commision" or whatever they call it. Old school scam.

    My advice for you: Sell such a car through a professional dealer or an official Ferrari dealer. They take their cut (a certain percentage or a fixed sum after the deal goes through) and deal with potential customers. Less headache for you!


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

      Very hard to sell a fancy car privately. I did it with my former RS. Not sure I ll do that again.  Private clients for such cars do not want to by from private guys. They want to go through a second hand dealer. 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Thanks for the advice guys, I think I will do that.  I'll remove the ads and contact private dealers only and go through them.

    Regards

     

    Moser


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    there is one thing though that keeps bugging me, why on earth do they always want us to travel to Milan?? why not some other city? lol


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Moser:

    there is one thing though that keeps bugging me, why on earth do they always want us to travel to Milan?? why not some other city? lol

    I suspect they are actually the same group of scammers and they are located in Milan or maybe close to Milan. For you, this looks like a huge organized international operation but in reality it is probably only one, two or three guys who are in on the scam and do everything from their computer at home (Milan?). 

    They meet with you, they take the money from you and they are gone. I'm not even sure they are interested in kidnapping you or stealing the car, I actually really think it is that old school scam with "commission".

    Just stop worrying, get a (reputable) dealer to take care of selling the car and you're done. Don't overthink it, not worth it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Ya, it was more curiosity than anything else, but for sure from now on only dealers for these vehicles....

    Moser


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    crayphile:

    The world is full of fraudsters. This is why I only deal through main dealers where I have longstanding relationships. Sure one pays for this peace of mind with lower gains ( or bigger losses mostly!) as they need a margin. Plus in my case and I suspect many if not all here  - a lot of time that I do not have.

    Completely agree. I try to get rid of any irrelevant annoyances, selling cars privately on the side is one of that. I imagine serious dealers have a network of interested customers, especially on cars like yours, that make it much easier to find a buyer.

    Maybe it is time for a Rennteam Marketplace...only for Porsche and Ferrari that is. And Tesla of course. Smiley


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    That's not a bad idea, I rennteam marketplace where we could post things we are selling or things we are looking for.....watches, cars, etc i like the idea ferdie


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Moser:

    That's not a bad idea, I rennteam marketplace where we could post things we are selling or things we are looking for.....watches, cars, etc i like the idea ferdie

    Not sure anyone here in the Rennteam team would have issues with that but they problem is: How do you know the deals are OK? We cannot guarantee any kind of safety/whatever for such deals. Of course if members know each other or someone how knows a member and that member can vouch for another member, this could work. Without any kind of official involvement from our part though of course.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    I think it could also help to strengthen relations between members

    I'll tell you my experience. In 2018 I bought a new GT2 RS. I usually keep these types of cars for a year and use them mainly for a season, from May to September, to drive them on the passes in the Dolomites and then change them with a new car. However, the GT2 RS is a fantastic car, more than I thought, and I couldn't imagine a better car (for me) so I kept it for two seasons. Now I have decided to replace it with a Speedster that is probably not so fun but at least it is very different (new experience for me).
    I decided to not sell the GT2
    RS to the dealer because I would like to have the pleasure of selling it to a car
    enthusiast whom I can personally tell how I have used the car, to show him the perfect
    condition of it, to hear his opinions in this regard, etc.

    Similarly, if I had to buy a used special car, I'd rather buy
    it from an (known) enthusiast instead of a salesman (and I would also save
    money).
     


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Yes of course Christian, there would be no need for rennteam to officially be responsible for anything, a disclaimer would suffice and it would be a deal at your own risk type thing....it would definately get members to meet up more lol


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Siai260:


    I decided to not sell the GT2
    RS to the dealer because I would like to have the pleasure of selling it to a car
    enthusiast whom I can personally tell how I have used the car, to show him the perfect
    condition of it, to hear his opinions in this regard, etc.

    Similarly, if I had to buy a used special car, I'd rather buy
    it from an (known) enthusiast instead of a salesman (and I would also save
    money).
     

    That is also what I thought when deciding to sell my former RS . Should be interesting for the buyer as he gets a better price and knows the owner and for me as I also would get a slightly better price , but also sharing the pleasure of transmitting the car .

    In reality I got contacted by about 30 second dealers and 3 private guys . The private guys all having problems to find payements , and being all very complicated . 

    Strangely people buying these expensive second hand cars do not trust private sales. They want guarantees  and feel if there is a problem they can't come back to you . This is of course a wrong thinking as the cars have the official Porsche guarantee .  They  prefer '' official '' second hand agents . Which does not guarantee much in reality . I know of cars that have been sold by these places that had only 3 or 5 000 km , but 100% track kilometers , and the cars were advertised as '' car is nearly new '' . 

    Aslo a major  thing on the second hand marked it financing . Most want a leasing .  That is also possible to organise as a private , but then again, the customer don't '' trust '' that you can do it . etc.... It is all very strange Smiley


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    I would always sell such a car through a dealer. Some dealers offer some sort of service where you can sell the cars through them on a commission basis. They take care of the buyer, the financials and everything else and they get a fixed rate for this service. Others just offer to showcase the car and to offer a "safe" environment for a meet/etc. with the potential buyer but honestly, when we are talking sums above 100,150 or 200k, I would definitely be very happy to pay 3k or so to a dealer for his services. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Isn't a 'for sale' thread good enough? Where one can post items/cars/watches that they are selling? Surely longtime members are trustworthy...


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    RC:

    Ik, I would definitely be very happy to pay 3k or so to a dealer for his services. 

    Official Porsche dealers here take about 7 % for this service. 2 Nd hand dealers ask around 10k on a 200k car.

    Not cheap. 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Vehicle Purchase Scam???

    Gnil:
    RC:

    Ik, I would definitely be very happy to pay 3k or so to a dealer for his services. 

    Official Porsche dealers here take about 7 % for this service. 2 Nd hand dealers ask around 10k on a 200k car.

    Not cheap. 

    Ouch...I was quoting what my Porsche dealer was asking in the past.

    7% are still OK if you lower your risk substantially. Also, time is money and you certainly loose a lot of time (and nerves) if you have to take care of this stuff yourself. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


     
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