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    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped



    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    They just cant go wrong with this beauty, I hope it will be more M-style (lookwise) like the M3 as shown in the pictures above. I would wish do add a decent power dome, real sport seats, something like in the panamera or in the C63 AMG packed together with the bmw comnfort seat abilities, since they are the best carseats out there.

    But the most important thing which remains to hope for, is that they put the DKG transmission in this beast. Since they had problems to fit this trani to the X5/6M, and since the engine is getting even stronger, it wont get easier for them.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    RC:

    Well, with the introduction of the X5/X6 M, the xDrive technology for the M5 engine is here, BMW just needs to adapt it. Just imagine: a M5 xDrive with 586 HP, under 2000 kg and under 100000 EUR (incl. 19% german VAT). The Cayenne Turbo base price is 135000 EUR over here in Germany. I know that many M customers don't like the idea of a AWD M5 but I guess this isn't much different with the new twin turbo turbo engine.

     

    to further the point, 5 series are already available with xDrive for a while, so the floorplan is already designed with awd in mind, with a transmission and transfer case already available to handle high HP applications like the X5/6M, it would have been easy for BMW to push out a awd M5.

    IF indeed BMW does put such a car out, look out Audi with their S6/RS6.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    To translate the german title of the above magazine pictures: Weniger ist Mehr..."Less is More". I have a weird feeling that this is some sort of sideblow towards other sedans like the Panamera.

    2011 is going to be a very interesting year. Not only the M5 is coming but also the facelifted E55 AMG (bye bye 6.2 l NA engine) and the facelifted RS6. I also expect the Panamera Turbo S sometimes around 2011/2012.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    RC:

    To translate the german title of the above magazine pictures: Weniger ist Mehr..."Less is More". I have a weird feeling that this is some sort of sideblow towards other sedans like the Panamera.

    2011 is going to be a very interesting year. Not only the M5 is coming but also the facelifted E55 AMG (bye bye 6.2 l NA engine) and the facelifted RS6. I also expect the Panamera Turbo S sometimes around 2011/2012.

     That should keep the super saloon debate heated for a while longer. 


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    face lifted RS6!! what a rip off... crazy!


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    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    janus:

    face lifted RS6!! what a rip off... crazy!


    Exactly. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    lets say, the resale value of the current RS6 will get even worse then.

    This is a really bad habbit of Audi, first they usually bring the RS series at (almost) the end of the model Life, so once you buy a RS car, your car is very fast old  and dated. Thats why I would never buy an RS car, you spend so much money, and after 1-2 years you are driving the Old A6 (for example), I dont think annyone likes to drive an expensive old and outdated car body.

    Seems that they brought the RS6 little earlier then they usually do, so now they can even fit a Facelift in the short cycle.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    I am actually quite disappointed with BMW's decision to switch from V10 to V8 for the m5. Although its the most logical choice for them to lower the manufacturing cost by sharing the same engine architechture with 750i, X6 5.0 and M X6.  Their engines are essentially the same with different software. The V10 will be a classic and they are force to abandon this great engine to compete with Mercedes. AMG also share the 6.3 engine across the range for efficient production. 

    The V10 is a masterpiece and the V8 is just a commonly shared engine block, a huge downgrade to the brand.


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    www.youtube.com/watch


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Hi William, nice to "see" you again. 

    While I agree to a certain point with you, you also need to understand BMW from their point of view. The new V8 twin turbo engine not only is more powerful and has further "expansion" possibilities for the future, it is also a much "greener" engine which allows BMW to reduce CO2 output and fuel consumption, at least on paper. Using the same engine block over a whole model range also helps to reduce cost substantially and although this helps mostly the manufacturer, it has the advantage for the customer to see the same engine in various attractive models. Considering the possible price tag of the new M5 and its performance, I think this car is going to be a bargain compared to the competition.

    I don't think that they need to abandon the engine to compete with the 6.2 l Mercedes engine since this engine will be replaced too very soon in favor of a turbo charged one.

    Car manufacturers have a problem with high performance engines: they need a lot of power but at the same time, the engine needs to be cleaner and more energy efficient too. The best way to achieve that right now, is using a turbo charged engine. 

    Downgrade ? I wouldn't call almost 80 HP more power a downgrade. 

    According to our sources, this new twin turbo charged engine has a lot of potential and can be used for a reliable power output even beyond 600 HP.

    The only thing which worries me is exhaust/engine sound but I suppose that BMW is aware of it and will take the necessary steps to offer a satisfactory sound. They're already working on an update for the X5/X6 M, so I guess they're aware of what customers want/expect.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Hi RC, congratulation on your new X5, I also ordered the exact same specification of the X5M. I agree with you that new M products are definitely a bargain especially from the price per horsepower and viewpoint. Customers would not want to pay a premium for the same horsepower and lap time figure. Its a wise move for BMW especially consider that was the reason why M3 market share is considerably lower than C63, even though the M3 is a better car. 

    This kind of efficiency adaptation has always been the evolution of automobile industry.  The trend is to create the same marketing figure with lower material cost. The V10 is a masterpiece but in today standard, the N.A. V10 is consider inefficient and too niche of a market for BMW. That's the reason i am disappointed from a car enthusiast point of view. The M5 special edition with tuned V10 engine and a DSG gearbox is what i would want in the new F10 M5. 

     

     

     


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    www.youtube.com/watch


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Well...welcome to the X5 M family. I'm proud to have you onboard too. 

    I agree with you: for us car enthusiasts, the air is getting thinner and thinner (literally speaking ) but I'm still happy car manufacturers like BMW still build "affordable" fast fun cars.

    The environmental discussion in Germany has put fast cars in a very bad position, especially SUVs but also high performance cars. It is absurd because most people are driving cars which are environmentally dirtier or not as clean as they think but public perception has always been a bitch and the german media does a marvelous job by feeding the monkey.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    I agree with you in full

    M5 V10 with 550-600 hps NA and DCT could be a marvel for next generation 

    I would prefer it day and night vs V8 TT engine...

    but the reality differs...

     

     


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    RC,

    Posche also still builds fast and affordable cars... 


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    artur777:

    RC,

    Posche also still builds fast and affordable cars... 

     

    I wouldn't call the Panamera "affordable". Smiley

    In my opinion, the 997 GT3 offers the best value for the money right now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Why can't BMW just turbo charge the V10 instead?  That would have been nice.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    The V10 is not designed for force induction, you can't just slap a couple turbos on it and expect it to work, a lot of the internals needs to be strengthen to survive the added pressure, not to mention the compression ratio needs to come down.

    M5/M6 is the only car the engine is made for, unlike AMG's 6.2L V8, the BMW V10 is pretty weak at low end of the rpm and not flexible enough to be adapted to different cars/trunks applications, it's past it's 'prime' so to speak and and hence it's not a good decision for BMW to keep it.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Whoopsy:

    The V10 is not designed for force induction, you can't just slap a couple turbos on it and expect it to work, a lot of the internals needs to be strengthen to survive the added pressure, not to mention the compression ratio needs to come down.

    Sure you can, the yanks do it all the time, and then they sue somebody when the engine blows up and whine about it on internet forumsSmiley

    M5/M6 is the only car the engine is made for, unlike AMG's 6.2L V8, the BMW V10 is pretty weak at low end of the rpm and not flexible enough to be adapted to different cars/trunks applications, it's past it's 'prime' so to speak and and hence it's not a good decision for BMW to keep it.

    True, the lack of low end torque in the M5 and M3 engines is something BMW would have had to adress for the next generation if they hadn't gone the forced induction route. Like Audi has done with the R8 V10 engine and the upcoming RS5 engine, they both feature very high redline (8,5k+) but also have a good amount of torque at low rpm.


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    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    The engine character of a Turbo is very different than N.A. I really like the throttle precision and linear power delivery of the V10 engine which the turbo can never match.  The difference really shows during corners when you require sharp throttle adjustment. The throttle response of the V10 is as good as the 3.8 GT3.  The only complain is the great engine coupled with a flawed SMG transmission. It really destroyed the whole driving experience.

    The M5 CSL with enlarged displacement to 5.5L and dual clutch transmission is what i wanted to see in the F10 M5, but it will be too expensive for mass production and price point will be too high to be competitive. I wonder if anyone could special order this car. 

    www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/244413/

     


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    www.youtube.com/watch


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Newer turbos are much better in throttle response than old ones, but it's still not matching NA engines. Supercharged engines, those roots/screw typed ones like the AMG 55K engines are the best compromised, it may not have the high rpm capability of a NA engine, or the ultimate power of a turbo engine, but it combines the low end grunt of a turbo and the linear response of a NA engine.

    Lack of low engine torque is the major achilles heel of NA engines, especially lower displacements ones. Even the AMG 6.2 offer less than the 55K and that's it's biggest knock within the AMG community. Good thing AMG is switching back to force feed to address that concern.

    NA engines just does not have the explosive power of a forced feed engines coming out of corners, it needs to be winded up really high in the rpm range to produce the same results, a bit tricky to keep the rpm within the powerband during a corner.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    I like my wife's M3 Cab DCT engine a lot but it sucks when driving in the city and/or at lower rpm figures.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

     

    High-revv NA motors are low on torque on low revvs

    its a problem of course


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Turbo or high displacement engine architecture is great for city or autobahn driving as it offers high power curve across the whole rpm range. The engine is well suited for the X5M. For intense driving in tight curves, I find NA more rewarding. 


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    www.youtube.com/watch


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    The wailing engine sounds of a NA can never be matched by force induction engines, it's the best sound there is, be it F1 or Ferraris or Lambos or even the V10 in M5, flat 6 in GT3 etc.

    To hear that sound is the best reason to wind an NA engine up to the redline, on a flat highway to wind an NA engine up that high on a constant rpm would be a torture to the ears, but on a winding mountain roads, the up and down pitch of the engine is perfect music. Hearing that engine note echos among the mountains is one of the most rewarding things to do.


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    I agree, the X5 M exhaust/engine sound sucks but if BMW really succeeds in improving it, well... I also don't care about sound engineering, the sound can be artificial, as long as it is there. Right now, the X5 M is pretty disappointing regarding the exhaust/engine sound and considering the fact that the very same engine is going to be in the next M5, I really hope BMW is doing the right thing. No future M5 owner will be satisfied if his car sounds like the X5 M, no way.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Nothing beats a high revving NA engine! ;)


    --
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    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    REALZEUS:

    Nothing beats a high revving NA engine! ;)

     

    On the track ? Yes. For daily driving ? Definetely not. My wife's M3 Cab DCT annoys me all the time because I have to keep the rpm figures high, resulting in some very unpleasant reaction from the people walking down the streets. The middle finger is one of the less aggressive reactions. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

     V10 NA sound is marvelous of course

    though 911 turbo sport exhaust is also very nice and strong


    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    RC:
    REALZEUS:

    Nothing beats a high revving NA engine! ;)

     

    On the track ? Yes. For daily driving ? Definetely not. My wife's M3 Cab DCT annoys me all the time because I have to keep the rpm figures high, resulting in some very unpleasant reaction from the people walking down the streets. The middle finger is one of the less aggressive reactions. Smiley

    There is something seriously wrong with the place you live in mate... Smiley
     

     

    Personally, I would give them the finger also...Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: BMW M5 (2011): new F10 super saloon scooped

    Not everyone is a car nut and likes the sound of engine 'noise'. Per RC, more than likely he is keeping the car at least 3k-4k rpm maybe in 2nd gear, those bystanders probably think RC was just 'showing off' his exhaust.


     
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