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    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Never seen the need for CCB other than to prevent brake dust. Never overcooked steel brakes or had any lack of braking ability.

    Sorry, RC and English, I gotta call bullshit on your need for PCCB ;)

    The difference in braking distance between really good steel brakes and CCB is not that massive, especially as speeds get lower. I can't prove it, but I don't think you guys would drive any differently without them. A little less unsprung mass is nice, but again, not much of a difference on normal road. They might even be worse in the Winter initially.

    CCB are still just a juicy profit margin for manufacturers that no one really needs.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    PCCB is the way to go. You don't have to over cook steel brakes to appreciate that PCCB will likely allow you to do a emergency stop from 150mph with more control and a shorter stopping distance. Obvious that is likely more important for the autobahn user market than for others, but if Porsche didn't offer PCCB to other markets the bitching would never stop. 


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    As PCCB's continue to improve (maybe they have arrived now), they will be the preferred brakes at the track too.  I wish PCCB's would use the fancy carbon rotors like used in Movit, Brembo Racing, and a couple others where the wear surface is not just a thin laminate but is a continuous material for the full 36mm thickness - then they would truly last the life of the car on the road and many seasons on the track.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    JimFlat6:

    PCCB is the way to go. You don't have to over cook steel brakes to appreciate that PCCB will likely allow you to do a emergency stop from 150mph with more control and a shorter stopping distance. Obvious that is likely more important for the autobahn user market than for others, but if Porsche didn't offer PCCB to other markets the bitching would never stop. 

    I don't believe this is true. Steel brakes are plenty capable of clamping down to the point at which ABS begins. You'll only see major braking differences if the steel brakes get overcooked. That requires a heck of a lot more than just emergency braking.

    They are a bit lighter and will effect handling a little, but you'd have to be on a track to notice any major differences.

    Sorry, but you'll never sell me on CCBs unless they are very reasonably priced. They aren't worth anywhere near what high-end brands charge for them.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Grant:

    As PCCB's continue to improve (maybe they have arrived now), they will be the preferred brakes at the track too.  I wish PCCB's would use the fancy carbon rotors like used in Movit, Brembo Racing, and a couple others where the wear surface is not just a thin laminate but is a continuous material for the full 36mm thickness - then they would truly last the life of the car on the road and many seasons on the track.

    I definitely wouldn't want CCBs for a track. Track miles are brutal on brakes and CCB cost a fortune to replace. Most people who track their car a lot actually go with aftermarket steel racing brake setups.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Agreed. Outside of multiple breaking moments where the brakes begin to fade from heat, breaking is a matter of tire grip and the ability to lock the brakes. you don't need carbon brakes for that and on a one or two stop basis there should be no difference. Now there may be feel difference (the CCB's I've used I found to grippy and on/off for my taste) but in terms of absolute stopping distance on an emergency stop it's all about tires. The ABS is on regardless...

     


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    I had steel brakes on my 997 and the new PCCBs are a significant improvement for feel/control, power and obviously no brake dust. With PCCB the tires become the limiting factor and your nerves. But everyone to their own. I know where my money went and happy about it. Only CCBs for me in the future in for my high performance cars. Can you actually get steel brakes on the Huracan unlike Ferraris?


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    NoOne1 - It is not just stopping distance - we can all stand on the brakes - it is about feel and repeatability.  Yes the unsprung weight makes a big difference as well.  I have one question - just one... Have you ever owned or driven a 911 with PCCB?  Porsche charges outragous money for lots of silly options - this one is expensive but well worth it.  It is not just a fluff product like sport Chrono or sport exhaust or bigger wheels or louder stereo - these are a bargain given what you actually get.  I would even want them on a base model 911 rather than pay the extra for the S.  Just my opinion BASED on having owned plenty of 911s AND one with PCCB for about 140K miles with no brake wear (pads were still 50%).


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Maybe 911 steel brakes just suck or something. Steel brakes on most exotics more than suffice for a normal road.

    I don't see how repeatability is relevant unless you're on a track. Why would you need to make multiple, high-speed stops on a normal road? I've yet to encounter any road where it would have been safe to drive at speed requiring such usage of the brakes. In fact, I've never notice any change in brake pedal feel in any car.

    As far as feel, it was only recently that CCB have gotten good, including Porsche. I've never driven a 911 with CCB, but I do know that in the past they were never said to offer as good of feel as steel. They've improved I'm sure, but most say steel still offers the best feel.

    My McLaren is the first car I've had with CCB. I don't feel like it has any effect on anything other than being a bit to grabby at low speed, though you get used to it. The benefit to me is that they don't generate brake dust and they look better because they fill in the wheel better. I'd never pay $15-20K for them though.

    I really just don't think they are necessary for the street and far too costly to use on a track. I think all exotics are coming with them standard now, but prices are also going up. By making them standard, they are more able to justify higher prices. Just a way to force expensive, high-margin options onto people, and CCBs have massive margins.

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Steel brakes on 991 Turbo and 991 GT3 are probably the best steel brakes currently available on all sportscars.  I drove both 991 Turbo S which has PCCBs as standard and 991 Turbo with steel brakes. I did not find any relevant advantage of PCCBs. Steel brakes offered even better low speed modulation and feel. High speed braking feel were almost the same IMO. 

    Problem is IMO that 991 Turbo S owners need a good justification for their purchase.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    KresoF1:

    Steel brakes on 991 Turbo and 991 GT3 are probably the best steel brakes currently available on all sportscars.  I drove both 991 Turbo S which has PCCBs as standard and 991 Turbo with steel brakes. I did not find any relevant advantage of PCCBs. Steel brakes offered even better low speed modulation and feel. High speed braking feel were almost the same IMO. 

    Problem is IMO that 991 Turbo S owners need a good justification for their purchase.

    I agree, some of the best brakes I ever used were on my 3.0 RSR with the 1978 Turbo floating rotors (pretty much 917 brakes in every way shape and form, they were replaced after 1979 with fixed rotors). They could fit under 15 inch wheels and never faded even at Daytona where you are going from 205mph to about 60mph braking for turn one.

    Around town, in the limited amount I’ve driven them, I found CCB brakes to be grippy, esp in the cold. On the track they are nice and give good feel once warm, but I’d hate to have to pay to replace them. 

    But I'm easy on brakes. Even racing I usually used Pagid Oranges as opposed to a more agressive pad.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Whoopsy:
    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    Which is what Piech wanted. He never liked Porsche the brand. Audi is HIS baby. 

    If he cares a tiny bit about Porsche the brand, he would have back off Audi and position it as the entry luxury division for VAG, bridging the gap between VW and Porsche and above, i.e. Lambo and Bentley. AS it stands right now, he put Audi right in the middle of Porsche's market. 

    If I were him, I would price the R8 at around 4S level just to squeeze Porsche further. Make the R8 the German version of the Nissan GTR. Cheap thrills. 

    So why did he "give" Porsche the development for all sportscars in the VW Group? Smiley

     

    Reluctantly. Audi protested the decision to the end.

     

    Quoting my own post to further highlight the infighting between Audi and Porsche:

     

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/22/audi-porsche-squabble-future-product-platforms-report/


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Whoopsy:
    Whoopsy:
    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    Which is what Piech wanted. He never liked Porsche the brand. Audi is HIS baby. 

    If he cares a tiny bit about Porsche the brand, he would have back off Audi and position it as the entry luxury division for VAG, bridging the gap between VW and Porsche and above, i.e. Lambo and Bentley. AS it stands right now, he put Audi right in the middle of Porsche's market. 

    If I were him, I would price the R8 at around 4S level just to squeeze Porsche further. Make the R8 the German version of the Nissan GTR. Cheap thrills. 

    So why did he "give" Porsche the development for all sportscars in the VW Group? Smiley

     

    Reluctantly. Audi protested the decision to the end.

     

    Quoting my own post to further highlight the infighting between Audi and Porsche:

     

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/22/audi-porsche-squabble-future-product-platforms-report/

    Underwhelmed by the article; however, note that Audi's higher volume vehicles, the A4, A5 and Q5, are not listed in the variants cited for the proposed Porsche developed platform.  If it is more than a mere oversight by the article's author, than that is a significant issue.  


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Except the 911 where the steel brakes are really fantastic and the break load is better distributed due to the heavy rear, in every other car I've driven, the ceramic brakes have always been much, much better. I am not talking about braking distance. I am talking about the feeling in everyday driving scenarios and especially the feeling when you have to slam on the brakes at 280km/h in an emergency situation. Even in the 911 I can feel the difference but it's not a must for the price sensitive clients. I'd never buy a performance sedan, especially Audi (front-heavy) without ceramics. My M5 has steel brakes and they are a joke compared to what I'm used to with the RS6 with ceramics.

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Well, the QT times are in for the Huracan. Nice time, though it's on Trofeo R tires.
     
    0-100 km/h - 2,88s (= 0-60 mph with 1-foot rollout in 2,5s) 
     
    Vairano track laptime : 1:11,8 (458 Speciale 1:12,5 , Aventador 1:13,9s , 458 Italia 1:15,1 )

    Re: Huracan AMS test

    CD numbers are a lot better. Price as tested a reasonable $256K. That's $50-70K more than a TTS in the US, so not sure what's going on with crazy prices in Germany.

    0-60 mph 2.5
    0-100 mph 5.7
    0-120 mph 8.1
    0-130 mph 9.5
    0-150 mph 13.3
    0-1/4 mile 10.4@135mph


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Wow - the acceleration and laptimes are more than impressive - did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Grant:

    did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.

    Vastly different tyres.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Still, it´s a great result for Huracan.


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

    BMW X5 4.4i V8


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    REALZEUS:
    Grant:

    did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.

    Vastly different tyres.

    I thought Speciale comes with track tires, no?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Grant:
    REALZEUS:
    Grant:

    did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.

    Vastly different tyres.

    I thought Speciale comes with track tires, no?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

     

    Michelin Cup2, the best of the street legal track tires, they are stickier than the Pirelli Trofeo R. I think the Huracan came with Pirelli Corsa, that's 2 step down from the R, so I guess that's all car instead of tire difference. 

     


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    REALZEUS:
    Grant:

    did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.

    Vastly different tyres.

    I thought Speciale comes with track tires, no?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

     

    Michelin Cup2, the best of the street legal track tires, they are stickier than the Pirelli Trofeo R. I think the Huracan came with Pirelli Corsa, that's 2 step down from the R, so I guess that's all car instead of tire difference. 

     

    The Trofeo Rs that the Lambo used are vastly superior track tyres to the Cup 2s of the Speciale. If I recall correctly, the treadwear rating of the Trofeos is 40 and that of the Cups is 160! The Cup 2s thought are much better in the wet and are also more friendly.

    Here you can see the Trofeos and the 2:


    http://www.baanvelgen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Pirelli_PZero_trofeo_race_ferrari_458_italia.jpg

    http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/michelin/mi_pi_spt_cp2_ci2_l.jpg

     

    One can clearly see how much more aggressive the Pirelli tyre is. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    REALZEUS:
    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    REALZEUS:
    Grant:

    did not expect it to spank a Speciale on a road course.

    Vastly different tyres.

    I thought Speciale comes with track tires, no?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

     

    Michelin Cup2, the best of the street legal track tires, they are stickier than the Pirelli Trofeo R. I think the Huracan came with Pirelli Corsa, that's 2 step down from the R, so I guess that's all car instead of tire difference. 

     

    The Trofeo Rs that the Lambo used are vastly superior track tyres to the Cup 2s of the Speciale. If I recall correctly, the treadwear rating of the Trofeos is 40 and that of the Cups is 160! The Cup 2s thought are much better in the wet and are also more friendly.

    Here you can see the Trofeos and the 2:


    http://www.baanvelgen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Pirelli_PZero_trofeo_race_ferrari_458_italia.jpg

    http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/michelin/mi_pi_spt_cp2_ci2_l.jpg

     

    One can clearly see how much more aggressive the Pirelli tyre is. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Something is not looking correct with the Tirerack image of the Pilot Sport Cup tire:

    http://www.michelinman.com/tire-selector/category/ultra-high-performance-sport/pilot-sport-cup-2/tire-details#image_gallery

    Both look similarly aggressive and the tread wear difference between the two is more related to technological differences than with the overall "aggressiveness" of the tire.  Michelin is in endurance racing and has advanced the technology related to tire longevity.  Pirelli remains handicapped with the F1 restrictions on tire life, and as a result, is not producing tires that last as long as Michelin-see the Pilot Super Sport as an example.

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    It's a trade off. The Michelins last longer, but the Pirelli is the faster tyre and by some margin. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Huracan AMS test

    REALZEUS:

    It's a trade off. The Michelins last longer, but the Pirelli is the faster tyre and by some margin. 

     

    Only thing Michelin gives up is wet traction. Pirelli, with the PZeros are always king in the wet. Also tire roar, Michelins are noisier than Pirelli.

    But you also need to compare same class tires, The Cup2 are a direct competitor to the Trofeo R, and the Huracan doesn't comes with Trofeo Rs.

    Super Sport is the new version of PS2, thus they are a direct competitor to the PZeros, PZero Corsa is the mild track tires from Pirelli, so that would be competitor to the original Michelin Cup tires.

    Regardless, the Huracan is the mild version from Lamborghini, so logically it will be fitted with the PZeros, not the Corsa. The track version of the Huracan which we know will be coming should be wearing Corsas if Lamborghini sticks with Pirelli. If they switch brands then no question it will be Cup2.


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    CGX car nut:

     

    Both look similarly aggressive and the tread wear difference between the two is more related to technological differences than with the overall "aggressiveness" of the tire.  Michelin is in endurance racing and has advanced the technology related to tire longevity.  Pirelli remains handicapped with the F1 restrictions on tire life, and as a result, is not producing tires that last as long as Michelin-see the Pilot Super Sport as an example.

     

     

    More like Pirelli is sticking with a softer compound that works better in the cold and wet while Michelin goes with a harder one that can stands the heat. This is just about a known fact as people who drive cars hard, be it McLaren or Porsche or anything else that wears Pirelli's complains the tires becomes mushy once it gets hot, while those that switch to Michelin never complain about mushiness. 

     


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Btw, Trofeo is not available in original dimension for Huracan front axle. So, they had to use tire which is not optimal. Kind of strange IMHO.  Sport Auto mnetioned that in their article as well as the problem with front diff that overheated during hard acceleration tests.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    I think Trofeo R is a much more extreme tire than PSC2, Corsa is similar to Cup but probably worse since it's an older model

    Pirelli says TR is 10% road,90% track while PSC2 comes as standard on some road cars (the most hardcore Lotus models are the only road cars that come equipped with TR afaik)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    lor:

    I think Trofeo R is a much more extreme tire than PSC2, Corsa is similar to Cup but probably worse since it's an older model

    Pirelli says TR is 10% road,90% track while PSC2 comes as standard on some road cars (the most hardcore Lotus models are the only road cars that come equipped with TR afaik)

    PSC2 is barely usable on wet road. Friend of mine almost crashed his 997.2 GT3 while driving on wet road on Gornje Jelenje (you know what road I am talking about) few months ago. 

    Let's be fully honest here PSC2 and similar tires are developed for mostly DRY track and road use. It is also very temperature dependable tires and could be tricky even on dry road if it is not up to its working temperature. 


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    KresoF1:
    lor:

    I think Trofeo R is a much more extreme tire than PSC2, Corsa is similar to Cup but probably worse since it's an older model

    Pirelli says TR is 10% road,90% track while PSC2 comes as standard on some road cars (the most hardcore Lotus models are the only road cars that come equipped with TR afaik)

    PSC2 is barely usable on wet road. Friend of mine almost crashed his 997.2 GT3 while driving on wet road on Gornje Jelenje (you know what road I am talking about) few months ago. 

    Let's be fully honest here PSC2 and similar tires are developed for mostly DRY track and road use. It is also very temperature dependable tires and could be tricky even on dry road if it is not up to its working temperature. 

    I disagree, that was the case for the Cup1 .

    I have Cup 2 on my 4.0 and they are a massive improvement over the Cup 1 in terms of endurance and wet performance. Definitely the best sport tyre for me out there today in terms of compromise.

    The Michelin Supersport is the best for the road if one doens't track their car. I have never tried the Pirelli Trofeo but all their other models are shit. 

    Bridgestone also make very good tyres. The RE 070 is an excellent alternative to the Cup 2.

     

     


     
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