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    997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    I have had the 997.2 for two decent test drives, today including lots of motorway driving and a decent amount of city driving too. Don't shoot me just yet - BUT, after comparing it to Tiptronic back to back, I was not overly impressed by the PDK. When I jumped back into my manual transmission car, the debating was over for me, the PDK is not for me. I prefer the 6 speed. EVEN my wife said the PDK didn't feel as good as Lamborghini's E-Gear OR the auto on the DB9 or the R8 we had last week.

    Everyone raves about it - I am so "unimpressed" I think the car I drove might be a dud and I am gonna book a test drive at a different dealer - just to compare cars.

    The interior is the same, the mirrors are HUGE and ugly. The engine "feels" like any other engine now,it seems to have lost the flat 6 chatter completely and when you rev it whilst stationary you feel none of the lovely vibes you get in the previous car.....

    There were more things I wasn't impressed with BUT I will wait until I have it another day before making my final final judgement.

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    I had a pretty unimpressive testdrive too. I think I might have been underwhelmed, since the car I drove had no Sport Chrono nor PASM (so no Sport modes for PDK).

    Were you able to try sport modes?

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    I drove the 3.6 car (I too have a 3.6) with a few options. It had the sports chrono and sports chrono plus (standard in Japan)

    Its not worth 40% more than my car (the depreciation on my car is at 40% ish at the moment) My wife drove it and even said - I still can't believe this, "get a manual if you must change but the current car sounds better"

    We have the R8 again tomorrow - will decide on what I want to do within the next week.

    For me the options are:

    Aston AMV8
    Porsche 997S
    Audi R8

    I checked out the new M3 - nice but not nice enough - wife loved the seats.
    Maserati Granturismo - nice to look at, bit of a fat broad, Lamborghini Gallardo - not practical at all.

    I only want one car and the Lambo would probably wind me up after a while. The R8 is quite small in regards to luggage so I am still bit concerned about having it as an option.

    I do like the F430 but its still quite pricey here....

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:
    I drove the 3.6 car (I too have a 3.6) with a few options. It had the sports chrono and sports chrono plus (standard in Japan)


    I drove the 3.6 car too, but very few options. I liked the power of the new DFI motor, but I would've far preferred the manual gearbox too...

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    I have had a P car since the 90's (started driving in 1989) and it would be strange to be without one so I will definitely give it another shot before deciding what to get next!!

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    FWIW, the more I see the FL rear end the more I see a dud; the tail lights are not-so-appropriate to the car and thus seem like change for the sake of change.

    The original wasn't so great either (too pointy-trendy for 2005).

    They COULD HAVE just corrected the 2005 version (made it less pointy), but noooooooooo..., they had to do something very different to make sure people could immediately tell that their car was newer and therefore "better."

    Oh well, what could we expect? The Germans, as brilliant engineers, have never been among the most excellent stylists.

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    Hi Porky

    Which parts of the pdk you are not impressed with?
    Slow, jerky, noisy, downshift.or...

    I am having a test drive soon myself and would therefore gather some opinions in advance.

    I am surprise pdk is worst than the R8's R-tronic which I think is very jerky.

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    The rear of the 997.1 is nicer IMHO They just got it right first time

    + 1

    The car seemed slow and uninvolving and less sharp than either the 430 with F1 or the Gallardo with E-Gear. And I still don;t like the bat ear shifters which are less intuitive than the setups in the cars above.

    Beyond that I was just so happy to get back into my car and shift gears for myself using a stick and a clutch pedal. Thankfully my wife agrees. Her response to PDK - why bother, you might as well buy an automatic and be done with the pretense.

    Re: + 1

    Le Chef, your wife agrees with mine !!

    Phelicopter,

    Basically, I hate the shifters, not easy to operate and even after a few hours of driving I didn't like them. The shift of the PDK stick is better.

    Other things:

    The plastics on the steering wheel, the PDK stick, the black on the navigation contrasts BADLY with the volcano grey of everything else, the, steering wheel is HUGE! Not sure how everyone else felt but I didn't like it, felt it was taking away some of the feedback of the wheels too.

    The change has the car came to a halt was not too impressive, the shift between drive and reverse, the rear view HUGE mirrors, the wheels are not too nice either - changes for the sake of changing.

    The front air vents (radiator dam or whatever you call it) remind me too much of the current 987. No doubt Porsche will end up sticking something in the radiator dam for new 987 to make it different from the 997.


    The fuel consumption is not that much better either! If you buy a PDK its better than the Tiptronic by 16% but it doesn't really beat the manual by much!

    I REALLY have had owned / driven too many Porsches over the years. I have probably covered more miles than anyone else my OPC knows and after my test drive, he saw the look on my face and said, take the tiptronic car out for a bit and tell me what you think - and this is the truth, its a better auto if you want an auto. Sorry, I know I will get slated but thats really what I felt.

    The other thing with the facelifted car is, it seems to have lost its unique Porscheness - the sound of the engine, the shake of the car when you rev it, the change is hard to describe but if you really spend a few hours with it and if you really know the current car or other 911's you will probably feel the same. The engine, might be more powerful or efficient but it just sounds like a Japanese car. It revs very freely but that doesn't make up for anything for me....

    Sorry to be so negative chaps, I am a real Porsche fan, I was so upset I phoned my dad last night - a car NUT if ever there was one and he just said get it together son, keep the dream alive and keep the current car. He has been a Stuttgart fan since the mid 70's and loves the 997 - not too keen on the 996 though. He is getting a new Porsche next week - will be a tip due to an injury which has left his left leg a bit mangled. Thankfully there is still plenty of 08 997 stock in the UK and JP.

    Final words, despite what the reviewers say about the engine and gearbox, to me, the car is a bit contrived, Porsches MO was probably " lets get a bit more cash out of these suckers"

    If I was on the market for my first 997, I would get it because it is still better than most of the competition, but personally I think I will wait for the 998 OR keep the current car, add an early 70's to the stable and buy something completely different for a change!

    Having said all that, I will be in Reading OPC with my old man and will check out a 6 speed car AND a 3.8 S and see if they are any better.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:

    If I was on the market for my first 997, I would get it because it is still better than most of the competition, but personally I think I will wait for the 998 OR keep the current car, add an early 70's to the stable and buy something completely different for a change!



    I respect your opinion but I think that if you did not like the changes from the 997.1 to the 997.2 you'll hate what the 991 will be. That's the nature of an evolving 911. I suspect that the future 991 will have a greater delta departure than evolutions before...

    I owned a 996 and I did not care for a 997.1. I do think though that the 997.2 is a better car. If I had a 997.1 I would not trade it for a 997.2, unless the engine had problems, as the new engine promises to be a more robust design.

    Your likes/dislikes re PDK is typical of a devoted manual stick driver. You need to drive it differently to appreciate it. I drive both and I like both.

    Re: + 1

    Hi Adias

    Thanks for taking the time to write. Agree with your comments....

    The only thing I should say is, I was really really looking forward to the PDK. I loved Lambo's E-Gear and have done plenty of miles in that, the 2003 F360 and BMW M3 SMG (2004) liked them all. The PDK was not amazing - but good. The R Tronic to me was better! I have it for another sunny sunday afternoon in Tokyo today!

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:
    Hi Adias

    Thanks for taking the time to write. Agree with your comments....

    The only thing I should say is, I was really really looking forward to the PDK. I loved Lambo's E-Gear and have done plenty of miles in that, the 2003 F360 and BMW M3 SMG (2004) liked them all. The PDK was not amazing - but good. The R Tronic to me was better! I have it for another sunny sunday afternoon in Tokyo today!



    I think that those transmissions are more physical - you actually feel the shift. I wonder if you were not impressed by the PDK because it is so smooth, so sterile. Have you tried Sport Plus? where shifts are actually felt?

    I also wonder if you are not enthused w/ the 2-pedal interface. As a 3-pedal driver you expect an action that is no longer there.

    Re: + 1

    997.2 may be a better car in some ways - it is faster after all - but it has also lost steering feel and the engine note is now more muted. You really need PSE.

    I will in all probability buy a 997.2 but it will be stick shift and have PSE.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:... the steering wheel is HUGE!




    Are you sure that the PDK steering wheel is larger than the std steering wheel? Larger diameter and or thicker rim?

    Re: + 1

    Thanks Porky Tokyo for your reply.

    Aethetics aside as I am not too bothered with them at this stage, just a summary on the mechanical side on the pdk whick you are not happy:

    1 not good when coming to a halt;
    2 forward to/from reverse not impressive - notchy?

    By the way, were you drving in the city slow traffic or motorway?

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:

    If I was on the market for my first 997, I would get it because it is still better than most of the competition, but personally I think I will wait for the 998 OR keep the current car, add an early 70's to the stable and buy something completely different for a change!



    That's exactly what I have done: bought a 1970 911t one month ago and kept the 997 CS2. I am having a great time restoring the 911 especially that the winter is comming and need something to keep me busy until spring brings back the pleasure in driving.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:... the steering wheel is HUGE!




    Are you sure that the PDK steering wheel is larger than the std steering wheel? Larger diameter and or thicker rim?



    I'm still interested in PorkyTokyo reply but I looked at photos shot by PAG of a variety of steering wheels with the same perspective and lens and they all appear to have the same diameter. I also note that the PDK wheel's center hub is slightly smaller, yielding larger open sectors and that may make the rim seem bigger as it has a larger gap to the hub.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Porky Tokyo said:... the steering wheel is HUGE!



    Hi Adias

    Are you sure that the PDK steering wheel is larger than the std steering wheel? Larger diameter and or thicker rim?



    I'm still interested in PorkyTokyo reply but I looked at photos shot by PAG of a variety of steering wheels with the same perspective and lens and they all appear to have the same diameter. I also note that the PDK wheel's center hub is slightly smaller, yielding larger open sectors and that may make the rim seem bigger as it has a larger gap to the hub.




    Perhaps you are right - maybe it was the combination of not being used to the regular wheel and the size of the centre hub being smaller - I can always ask the dealer - either way, I am sure they will release a thicker rimmed sports steering wheel so its not a major issue. BUT, it did feel bigger and the feedback lacked somewhat.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    phelipcopter said:
    Thanks Porky Tokyo for your reply.

    Aethetics aside as I am not too bothered with them at this stage, just a summary on the mechanical side on the pdk whick you are not happy:

    1 not good when coming to a halt;
    2 forward to/from reverse not impressive - notchy?

    By the way, were you drving in the city slow traffic or motorway?



    1 not good when coming to a halt;

    I drove about an hour in stop start city traffic and the car was not as soothe as a manual or a tiptronic - these cars are not built to be driven in gridlock cities so thats fair enough but my feeling is you can have a better drive in a manual or the old tip.

    However, most of the driving was done on the motorway, where it was silky smooth and the gear changes not noticeable in drive mode.

    2 forward to/from reverse not impressive - notchy?

    Just a tad notchy - nothing to cry about though

    In all fairness, I am an excellent "manual" box driver, I am not a great semi auto / sequential or whatever you call those types of boxes driver. I probably need some training on getting the best out of the box before I make wild comments BUT, in comparison to other cars I have had no training on - Aston, BMW, Lamborghini, Ferrari and Audi R8 the PDK did not feel as nice. Like I said, I am going to test a couple of cars at a different dealer - you never know, Porsches do make the odd dud and you never know, the one car I have tested MAY just have had one too many launch controls or a bit too much abuse.

    Test the 2S today

    Tried a 2S with pdk and sport chrono today. I like the tail lights - modern and rather unique to be honest. Old ones look dated.

    In normal D mode, the car is smooth but slow to react if you are cruising and suddenly want to overtake slower traffic. You have to really work hard to extract perf out of this mode. In this mode, rev counter rarely exceed 2k. My 335 can kill this 2S anytime in this relax driving mode.

    Car starts in 1st gear vs 2nd in the old model tips.

    In sport mode and plus mode, the car is very fast even in D and shift very smoothly at high speed. Not jerky at all. I understand Porky Tokyo now, it gets jerky in slow traffic, but after a while if you control the throttle properly, it can be smooth as butter.

    In manual mode, again the shift is very fast and i have no problem whatsoever with pull up for down and push down for upshift. With pdk, i really dont see the point of manual shifting - may be for overtaking in normal D?

    If one must compare pdk and stick in terms of perf, i think pdk will win but it is a very personal decision.

    I also find this engine ( with pdk gearing ) more willing to rev at all range compared to tips. The tips seems to hesitate around 4k for a while before going into 5-6k. With pdk, it goes up from 3k to 6k in almost very gear very easily.

    Fuel consumtpion is ridiculously low, a mixture of hard driving/city traffic/motorway, I get 17L/100km, which is the same as my 335 and better than by A6 quattro. I wonder how the DFI can be this efficient. For those who look for a 'green' perf car, look no further.

    Steering is lighter but sharper than the old model. This is a big plus for me. The car is very stable but yet very very agile. It actually feel light.

    Suspension is very comfortable in normal PASM mode but get very bumpy when I switch to sport mode. For me, I seriously doubt if Sport PASM ( another 10mm lower ) is suitable for daily drive - then again depending on your road condition and I strongly suggest that you at least try out the normal PASM before ordering the Sport PASM.

    Coming out of roundabout, almost full throttle, the rear end did not spin. Maybe I did not drive hard enough, maybe I can save myself the LSD, maybe I didnt hear/feel the spin.

    Exhaust is quiet inside and so PSE is good for those who enjoy the the engine notes.

    Lastly on brake, it is as progressive as the old one but it seems to stop easier. In the old car, you really had to step on it hard to stop from high speed.

    Overall, I am happy with pdk and the new model is better than the old tips model. The car is certainly easier to drive fast now which is not a bad thing to most.

    I have already put down a deposit few months ago and will not regret.

    This is only a layman's review of the new pdk and I am sure a better driver will uncover more in this 1.5 hr test drive.

    Re: Test the 2S today

    Quote:
    phelipcopter said:
    Tried a 2S with pdk and sport chrono today. I like the tail lights - modern and rather unique to be honest. Old ones look dated.

    In normal D mode, the car is smooth but slow to react if you are cruising and suddenly want to overtake slower traffic. You have to really work hard to extract perf out of this mode. In this mode, rev counter rarely exceed 2k. My 335 can kill this 2S anytime in this relax driving mode.

    Car starts in 1st gear vs 2nd in the old model tips.

    In sport mode and plus mode, the car is very fast even in D and shift very smoothly at high speed. Not jerky at all. I understand Porky Tokyo now, it gets jerky in slow traffic, but after a while if you control the throttle properly, it can be smooth as butter.

    In manual mode, again the shift is very fast and i have no problem whatsoever with pull up for down and push down for upshift. With pdk, i really dont see the point of manual shifting - may be for overtaking in normal D?

    If one must compare pdk and stick in terms of perf, i think pdk will win but it is a very personal decision.

    I also find this engine ( with pdk gearing ) more willing to rev at all range compared to tips. The tips seems to hesitate around 4k for a while before going into 5-6k. With pdk, it goes up from 3k to 6k in almost very gear very easily.

    Fuel consumtpion is ridiculously low, a mixture of hard driving/city traffic/motorway, I get 17L/100km, which is the same as my 335 and better than by A6 quattro. I wonder how the DFI can be this efficient. For those who look for a 'green' perf car, look no further.

    Steering is lighter but sharper than the old model. This is a big plus for me. The car is very stable but yet very very agile. It actually feel light.

    Suspension is very comfortable in normal PASM mode but get very bumpy when I switch to sport mode. For me, I seriously doubt if Sport PASM ( another 10mm lower ) is suitable for daily drive - then again depending on your road condition and I strongly suggest that you at least try out the normal PASM before ordering the Sport PASM.

    Coming out of roundabout, almost full throttle, the rear end did not spin. Maybe I did not drive hard enough, maybe I can save myself the LSD, maybe I didnt hear/feel the spin.

    Exhaust is quiet inside and so PSE is good for those who enjoy the the engine notes.

    Lastly on brake, it is as progressive as the old one but it seems to stop easier. In the old car, you really had to step on it hard to stop from high speed.

    Overall, I am happy with pdk and the new model is better than the old tips model. The car is certainly easier to drive fast now which is not a bad thing to most.

    I have already put down a deposit few months ago and will not regret.

    This is only a layman's review of the new pdk and I am sure a better driver will uncover more in this 1.5 hr test drive.



    Thanks for your impressions, you have covered all the essentials.

    My impressions are similar to yours as regards 997.1 vs 997.2 and PDK.

    Personally, I would choose the new Carrera S over any other car with the exception of the Audi R8 that I rate as overall equal to the Porsche although very different in style and driving.

    However, the Audi's limited practicality and flamboyant style have put me off. Its driving characteristics are first class though. Easier do drive fast than the Porsche and with a more poised and secure feel.

    Re: Test the 2S today

    Quote:
    phelipcopter said:Coming out of roundabout, almost full throttle, the rear end did not spin. Maybe I did not drive hard enough, maybe I can save myself the LSD, maybe I didnt hear/feel the spin.


    You won't have wheelspin, unless you turn off PSM. Otherwise, it applies the brake (or even cuts engine power) if necessary.

    Re: Test the 2S today

    Thanks very much for posting your impressions

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Beyond that I was just so happy to get back into my car and shift gears for myself using a stick and a clutch pedal. Thankfully my wife agrees. Her response to PDK - why bother, you might as well buy an automatic and be done with the pretense.



    BINGO, circle gets the square..... I've been chuckling ever since the advent of these auto-clutch boxes, how people play the techno-card in order to smoke-screen the fact that their left leg is no longer 1/3rd of the operation of the car (leaving only 2/3rds of the job remaining to be "involved" in)...

    Go ahead, go ever-so-slightly faster techno-nerds!!!

    I'll be the knuckle-dragging old-school neanderthal right there on your tail with the huge grin on my face

    Regarding styling, I've learned to accept the new tush... But I've grown to dislike the front end the more I see it. Not in the grille openings, but in the shape and contour of the nose... From the side and slightly moving forward toward a 1/4 angle, the new nose is very "duck-bill-ish".. It's one hell of a schnoz if you ask me. My 997.1 doesn't need a nose job.

    In any case, I agree, 997.2 is great for those who don't yet own a 997... But if you've already got the 997.1, no reason to trade-in, just wait for the next gen...

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:... In any case, I agree, 997.2 is great for those who don't yet own a 997... But if you've already got the 997.1, no reason to trade-in, just wait for the next gen...



    I agree with that. I suspect though, that human nature being what it is, many 997.1 owners will be critical of the 997.2, to defend their turf.

    Re: + 1

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I agree with that. I suspect though, that human nature being what it is, many 997.1 owners will be critical of the 997.2, to defend their turf.



    Yes, that would be a natural tendency... But I understand that going in, and try not to get caught up in the "sour grapes" mentality... Nope, I'm truly and OBJECTIVELY happy with my '05, and hold no ill-will or jealousy towards those buying new... Keeping up with the Jones's is a pain in the ars....

    Re: 997 Facelift - Not impressed...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    FWIW, the more I see the FL rear end the more I see a dud; the tail lights are not-so-appropriate to the car and thus seem like change for the sake of change.

    The original wasn't so great either (too pointy-trendy for 2005).

    They COULD HAVE just corrected the 2005 version (made it less pointy), but noooooooooo..., they had to do something very different to make sure people could immediately tell that their car was newer and therefore "better."

    Oh well, what could we expect? The Germans, as brilliant engineers, have never been among the most excellent stylists.



    I like the new rear end more than the old one.

    The old one is too big, the new taillights let the rear end look wider. A bit like spaceship!

    Not sour grapes

    I think we have a really good sense of our current cars and have higher expectations of what the 997.2 should accomplish, and so are more critical.

    The car is clearly faster - but there's a point where more doesn't improve the experience because you can't use it.

    The interior seems nice, particularly the PCM unit and the optional ventilated seats.

    The steering felt less communicative - it could have been the make of tires (Bridgestone) or something else but the pressures were correct.

    The engine was quieter. On a long run that's a benefit, but in general running around it would be nice to hear more of it.

    PDK - I'm sure it works well but I wasn't impressed. Despite living in a city with traffic problems the pleasure of shifting your own gears far outweighs any labor-saving PDK might offer.

    If you've never owned a 997 then go for it - it's a brilliantly addictive and all round highly accomplished car with no equal.

    Re: Not sour grapes

    I go with Le Chef comments, I guess someone who bought an 08 model car at list price might have sour grapes but for myself and a few others - no way, we have owned used and got our money's worth already!

     
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