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    612 hp....

    612 hp twelve-cylinder engine in the new CL 65

    Impresive


    Re: 612 hp....

    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...

    Re: 612 hp....

    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:
    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...



    I agree with you that it MB is trying to change their image in a cost-effective way, by spreading horsepower engines over many different models, but I disagree with you that it is an inefficient way. MB is NOT trying to compete with Ferrari, Porsche and BMW. They are targeting a much larger market of people who are not really car enthusiasts who want autobahn stormers and at the same time the creature comforts and luxury items that Porsches and BMWs lack.

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:
    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...



    I agree with you that it MB is trying to change their image in a cost-effective way, by spreading horsepower engines over many different models, but I disagree with you that it is an inefficient way. MB is NOT trying to compete with Ferrari, Porsche and BMW. They are targeting a much larger market of people who are not really car enthusiasts who want autobahn stormers and at the same time the creature comforts and luxury items that Porsches and BMWs lack.

    Re: 612 hp....

    With 1000nm

    Re: 612 hp....

    With 1000nm

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:
    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...



    Luigi, why pointless?

    I testdrove a CL 600 yesterday and I must say that the engine is impressive. For it's weight, the car handles very well.
    Now I try to give you some food for thought: imagine you're married and have kids, imagine you are 35-50 years old and already have had your fun on the track, imagine that you have to drive a lot on the Autobahn and imagine that you need some comfort too because starting with 30, health problems arise. Just imagine...

    I guess Mercedes found the solution for combating increased weight: power, indefinete power. The CL 65 AMG with 612 HP will surely outrun any Porsche out there and might even put the Carrera GT in trouble when it comes to 0-300 kph acceleration. Does this sound crazy? Yes, it does. But it is impressive too. I mean look: how many people will drive their Enzo or Carrera GT on the street or even on the track? Right, probably 10% if not less. So the CL 65 AMG actually puts Ferrari and Porsche to the shame, even if these cars can't really be compared.

    The only thing I find crazy about these power upgrades is the inferior driver capability. Most people buying such power monsters won't be pros, they're just ordinary business men buying a powerful car. I bet that the ESP system on the CL 65 AMG will have a lot of work to do.

    Lowering weight is not really possible anymore without substantially raising cost. Mercedes learned that and I guess the future models from Ferrari and Porsche won't be lower in weight either. I truely hope that Ferrari and Porsche increase power too because this is the only way how they can stay in business on a longterm run.

    And last but not least: we did a 996 Turbo vs. E 55 AMG testdrive a few days ago and from 0-200 kph, both cars were almost head to head with half a meter advantage for the E 55. From 200 kph to around 275 kph, the E 55 left the 996 Turbo behind, especially at speeds over 220 kph.

    So from the point of view of everyday driving, the E 55 is the faster car. It is not as fast as the 996 Turbo in curves but for the normally experienced driver, it is good enough.
    BTW: the E 55 is around 130 kg lighter than the SL 55.

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:
    Yes, impressive!
    But imo oh so very pointless!
    MB is trying to change its image and attack other market niches in a very cost-effective but inefficient way.
    They still can't make a car that steers with good feedback or a chassis that can really put to the road more than 350 hp but now they give you 612 hp and God knows how many NMs of torque!
    Good job...



    Luigi, why pointless?

    I testdrove a CL 600 yesterday and I must say that the engine is impressive. For it's weight, the car handles very well.
    Now I try to give you some food for thought: imagine you're married and have kids, imagine you are 35-50 years old and already have had your fun on the track, imagine that you have to drive a lot on the Autobahn and imagine that you need some comfort too because starting with 30, health problems arise. Just imagine...

    I guess Mercedes found the solution for combating increased weight: power, indefinete power. The CL 65 AMG with 612 HP will surely outrun any Porsche out there and might even put the Carrera GT in trouble when it comes to 0-300 kph acceleration. Does this sound crazy? Yes, it does. But it is impressive too. I mean look: how many people will drive their Enzo or Carrera GT on the street or even on the track? Right, probably 10% if not less. So the CL 65 AMG actually puts Ferrari and Porsche to the shame, even if these cars can't really be compared.

    The only thing I find crazy about these power upgrades is the inferior driver capability. Most people buying such power monsters won't be pros, they're just ordinary business men buying a powerful car. I bet that the ESP system on the CL 65 AMG will have a lot of work to do.

    Lowering weight is not really possible anymore without substantially raising cost. Mercedes learned that and I guess the future models from Ferrari and Porsche won't be lower in weight either. I truely hope that Ferrari and Porsche increase power too because this is the only way how they can stay in business on a longterm run.

    And last but not least: we did a 996 Turbo vs. E 55 AMG testdrive a few days ago and from 0-200 kph, both cars were almost head to head with half a meter advantage for the E 55. From 200 kph to around 275 kph, the E 55 left the 996 Turbo behind, especially at speeds over 220 kph.

    So from the point of view of everyday driving, the E 55 is the faster car. It is not as fast as the 996 Turbo in curves but for the normally experienced driver, it is good enough.
    BTW: the E 55 is around 130 kg lighter than the SL 55.

    Does someone really think...

    ...that the 612 HP power figure (same as on the Porsche Carrera GT) is pure coincidence?
    I think that Mercedes started a power "war" a while ago, a "war" cleary targeting Porsche. I'm curious to see who will win.

    Does someone really think...

    ...that the 612 HP power figure (same as on the Porsche Carrera GT) is pure coincidence?
    I think that Mercedes started a power "war" a while ago, a "war" cleary targeting Porsche. I'm curious to see who will win.

    are you sure about the....

    ...weight differences E55 vs. SL 55 ?

    Sport Auto did weigh both cars (gas filled up):

    E 55: 1944 kgs, issue 01/2003
    SL55: 1968 kgs, issue 04/2002

    hardly any difference

    are you sure about the....

    ...weight differences E55 vs. SL 55 ?

    Sport Auto did weigh both cars (gas filled up):

    E 55: 1944 kgs, issue 01/2003
    SL55: 1968 kgs, issue 04/2002

    hardly any difference

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Quote:
    ...weight differences E55 vs. SL 55 ?

    Sport Auto did weigh both cars (gas filled up):

    E 55: 1944 kgs, issue 01/2003
    SL55: 1968 kgs, issue 04/2002

    hardly any difference



    Yes, I'm sure about it. There is no SL 55 test I'm aware of in which the SL 55 weights below 2050 kg. I think SPORT AUTO used the manufacturer claim which is now 1955 kg for the SL 55. The manufacturer claim for the E 55 is 1835 kg, 120 kg less than the SL 55.
    Another thing which influences weight on the E 55: if you take an E 55 with panorama roof and heat absorbant/infrared glass, you add another 50 kg to the car. Minimum.

    The official explenation for the 476 HP on the E 55 AMG and the 500 HP figure on the SL 55 is that the E 55 needed a different exhaust system because of space problems underneath the E 55. But it you carefully look at the torque/performance figures, you realize soon that this can't be the whole truth.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Quote:
    ...weight differences E55 vs. SL 55 ?

    Sport Auto did weigh both cars (gas filled up):

    E 55: 1944 kgs, issue 01/2003
    SL55: 1968 kgs, issue 04/2002

    hardly any difference



    Yes, I'm sure about it. There is no SL 55 test I'm aware of in which the SL 55 weights below 2050 kg. I think SPORT AUTO used the manufacturer claim which is now 1955 kg for the SL 55. The manufacturer claim for the E 55 is 1835 kg, 120 kg less than the SL 55.
    Another thing which influences weight on the E 55: if you take an E 55 with panorama roof and heat absorbant/infrared glass, you add another 50 kg to the car. Minimum.

    The official explenation for the 476 HP on the E 55 AMG and the 500 HP figure on the SL 55 is that the E 55 needed a different exhaust system because of space problems underneath the E 55. But it you carefully look at the torque/performance figures, you realize soon that this can't be the whole truth.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    So RC, when the E55 gets bumped to 500hp later on, it may just be a quick erase and pencil in.

    The SL55 can also be ordered with Panorama roof. Not sure why you would do this when you live in California and already have a drop top.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    So RC, when the E55 gets bumped to 500hp later on, it may just be a quick erase and pencil in.

    The SL55 can also be ordered with Panorama roof. Not sure why you would do this when you live in California and already have a drop top.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Quote:
    So RC, when the E55 gets bumped to 500hp later on, it may just be a quick erase and pencil in.

    The SL55 can also be ordered with Panorama roof. Not sure why you would do this when you live in California and already have a drop top.



    Well, the pencil job is an easy one. But I'm not sure they'll ever do it.

    Regarding the "mysterious" power upgrade from 476 to 500 HP on the SL 55, I'd recommend reading this post:
    Possible reason for power change on paper?
    Funny, the re-certification for the SL 55 happened right after they kicked me out. What a co-incidence.

    I'll never let somebody shut up my mouth, not even AMG (of which I own 3 cars!). Maybe I should have sent them a nice letter about "their" Club but I didn't want to get involved in kiddie games. I'm a mature human being and I have better things to do. Like this place...for example.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Quote:
    So RC, when the E55 gets bumped to 500hp later on, it may just be a quick erase and pencil in.

    The SL55 can also be ordered with Panorama roof. Not sure why you would do this when you live in California and already have a drop top.



    Well, the pencil job is an easy one. But I'm not sure they'll ever do it.

    Regarding the "mysterious" power upgrade from 476 to 500 HP on the SL 55, I'd recommend reading this post:
    Possible reason for power change on paper?
    Funny, the re-certification for the SL 55 happened right after they kicked me out. What a co-incidence.

    I'll never let somebody shut up my mouth, not even AMG (of which I own 3 cars!). Maybe I should have sent them a nice letter about "their" Club but I didn't want to get involved in kiddie games. I'm a mature human being and I have better things to do. Like this place...for example.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Too bad for them...it's certainly their loss for not having you anymore.

    Re: are you sure about the....

    Too bad for them...it's certainly their loss for not having you anymore.

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:

    Now I try to give you some food for thought: imagine you're married and have kids, imagine you are 35-50 years old and already have had your fun on the track, imagine that you have to drive a lot on the Autobahn and imagine that you need some comfort too because starting with 30, health problems arise. Just imagine...




    I would buy an M5.


    My point is that not only is it pointless to give such power to this car, but it's also very dangerous.
    You give 612hp and 1000 Nm of torque to a car that has a chassis that has problems putting on the road more than 360 hp, that has a numb and irresponsive steering, and hope that ESP and ABC will govern things.
    This to me is not the way to go!
    I'm not against high powered heavy GTs or sedans in principle, I don't like the approach that Mercedes has taken.

    Re: 612 hp....

    Quote:

    Now I try to give you some food for thought: imagine you're married and have kids, imagine you are 35-50 years old and already have had your fun on the track, imagine that you have to drive a lot on the Autobahn and imagine that you need some comfort too because starting with 30, health problems arise. Just imagine...




    I would buy an M5.


    My point is that not only is it pointless to give such power to this car, but it's also very dangerous.
    You give 612hp and 1000 Nm of torque to a car that has a chassis that has problems putting on the road more than 360 hp, that has a numb and irresponsive steering, and hope that ESP and ABC will govern things.
    This to me is not the way to go!
    I'm not against high powered heavy GTs or sedans in principle, I don't like the approach that Mercedes has taken.

    Re: are you sure about the....


    Hey Justin,
    Glass roof on the SL is a nice option during the winter here in Europe.
    This power escalation is incredible, I wonder where this will stop,
    I admire the engineering achievement, but I find this a bit pointless IMO.
    Oh well, nice to have a Sedan as powerfull as the CGT though
    And probably faster in a straight line too!!!
    Fanch.

    Re: are you sure about the....


    Hey Justin,
    Glass roof on the SL is a nice option during the winter here in Europe.
    This power escalation is incredible, I wonder where this will stop,
    I admire the engineering achievement, but I find this a bit pointless IMO.
    Oh well, nice to have a Sedan as powerfull as the CGT though
    And probably faster in a straight line too!!!
    Fanch.

    Cool, fanch is back

    Hey fanch,

    Long time no talk.

    I was wondering if you were in the process of moving to another country again

    Cool, fanch is back

    Hey fanch,

    Long time no talk.

    I was wondering if you were in the process of moving to another country again

    Re: 612 hp....

    I like HP but I am beginning to really not understand all this.

    I am in my late 20s and could be stereotyped with the ricerocket/super euro compact brigade (I know of Civics and Golfs with 300 HP at the wheels!!!) but I find this power war that Mercedes is doing kind of rediculous. I mean come on, what is the point of a CL class Mercedes with 612HP!!! Sure people will buy it. Some people buy big HP thinking it will make the car a sports car but get real. I don't even think all 612 of those horses will actually even be usuable. The ESP system will be flashing constantly even in "normal" driving. I think that this is nothing but an EGO car for both the owner and Mercedes. I mean sure it could probably destroy a Porsche (maybe even the Carrera GT) in a straight line but once you get into the twisty parts the Porsche will straight leave that CL65 much less any other new "high powered" Mercedes. And that my friends is what it is all about. I could care less if I am in my 996 Turbo and the guy next to me in the E55 blows my doors off. That is OK. Once we turn off the interstate or autobahn onto secondary roads, his #@! is mine!!! I won't even discuss track days. The Merc guy would be too affraid that he might damage his car. Which he probably would - imagine braking a 5000 LB vehicle from 150 mph down into a hairpin 10 or so times in a row!! OUCH!!!

    Porsche is my favorite sports car maker above all else because their cars are complete. They brake and corner just as well as they accelerate. They feel tight and compact. Like an extension of the driver. When I road passenger in a new CL it felt like I was riding in a large yaught!!! Granted it cornered better than I would have expected but that sports car feel just wasn't there. If I could afford it, I would buy the Carrera GT or the next 911/Boxster regardless of the power they will actually have in the future. I can not see a "normal" 911 with 400 hp or more though. It is not necessary. Porsche's big power cars are always their RS (GT3) or Turbo versions. And Porsche will always keep it that way (I hope). Sure, I can see the next Turbo getting maybe 450 to 475 HP. Anymore and you begin to over power that short wheelbase chassis. And Porsche wants their cars to be usable and economical too. Big horsepower = more attrocious gas sucking!!!

    Porsche is about the sports car package. And guys, I thought you would have seen that!? I am disappointed. If people require that Porsche jack the horsepower up just to compete with Mercedes then poeple have lost what Porsche is all about. Until Mercedes starts to race their big horsepower cars, they get no respect from me. I am infact offended and a little disappinted with Mercedes myself. Whens the last time you saw an SL win the Daytona 24 Hours with "only" 435 hp. Well, the long forgotten, underpowered, and just doomed for future sales success 911 just did it. And it lasted 24 hours of race abuse while running just as fast as the new Daytone Prototypes. I rest my case. Big HP does not equal better car. Never has. Never will.

    But that is just my opinion. Sorry for the rant. I am just a little frustrated. No matter what Porsche seems to do right now, no one is happy. They bring the Carrera GT out and it is even underpowered!!! They bring out a new and improved GT3 and everyone is dissappointed about the power!! Not one single person has spoke about the new cars' handling prowess or feel. It looks as if Mercedes and the horsepower war has brain washed us all...SAD.

    Re: 612 hp....

    I like HP but I am beginning to really not understand all this.

    I am in my late 20s and could be stereotyped with the ricerocket/super euro compact brigade (I know of Civics and Golfs with 300 HP at the wheels!!!) but I find this power war that Mercedes is doing kind of rediculous. I mean come on, what is the point of a CL class Mercedes with 612HP!!! Sure people will buy it. Some people buy big HP thinking it will make the car a sports car but get real. I don't even think all 612 of those horses will actually even be usuable. The ESP system will be flashing constantly even in "normal" driving. I think that this is nothing but an EGO car for both the owner and Mercedes. I mean sure it could probably destroy a Porsche (maybe even the Carrera GT) in a straight line but once you get into the twisty parts the Porsche will straight leave that CL65 much less any other new "high powered" Mercedes. And that my friends is what it is all about. I could care less if I am in my 996 Turbo and the guy next to me in the E55 blows my doors off. That is OK. Once we turn off the interstate or autobahn onto secondary roads, his #@! is mine!!! I won't even discuss track days. The Merc guy would be too affraid that he might damage his car. Which he probably would - imagine braking a 5000 LB vehicle from 150 mph down into a hairpin 10 or so times in a row!! OUCH!!!

    Porsche is my favorite sports car maker above all else because their cars are complete. They brake and corner just as well as they accelerate. They feel tight and compact. Like an extension of the driver. When I road passenger in a new CL it felt like I was riding in a large yaught!!! Granted it cornered better than I would have expected but that sports car feel just wasn't there. If I could afford it, I would buy the Carrera GT or the next 911/Boxster regardless of the power they will actually have in the future. I can not see a "normal" 911 with 400 hp or more though. It is not necessary. Porsche's big power cars are always their RS (GT3) or Turbo versions. And Porsche will always keep it that way (I hope). Sure, I can see the next Turbo getting maybe 450 to 475 HP. Anymore and you begin to over power that short wheelbase chassis. And Porsche wants their cars to be usable and economical too. Big horsepower = more attrocious gas sucking!!!

    Porsche is about the sports car package. And guys, I thought you would have seen that!? I am disappointed. If people require that Porsche jack the horsepower up just to compete with Mercedes then poeple have lost what Porsche is all about. Until Mercedes starts to race their big horsepower cars, they get no respect from me. I am infact offended and a little disappinted with Mercedes myself. Whens the last time you saw an SL win the Daytona 24 Hours with "only" 435 hp. Well, the long forgotten, underpowered, and just doomed for future sales success 911 just did it. And it lasted 24 hours of race abuse while running just as fast as the new Daytone Prototypes. I rest my case. Big HP does not equal better car. Never has. Never will.

    But that is just my opinion. Sorry for the rant. I am just a little frustrated. No matter what Porsche seems to do right now, no one is happy. They bring the Carrera GT out and it is even underpowered!!! They bring out a new and improved GT3 and everyone is dissappointed about the power!! Not one single person has spoke about the new cars' handling prowess or feel. It looks as if Mercedes and the horsepower war has brain washed us all...SAD.

    Re: 612 hp....

    Well, this is life, Robbie. People are never fully satisfied.

    I agree with you, power isn't everything. And neither the E 55 nor the SL 55 or the new CL 65 AMG are real sports cars compared to the Porsche 911. But for the Autobahn, the new Mercedes models are great. And most people see a track from a far distance only...if they see it at all.
    I don't understand why Porsche seems to ignore the power war which started. I mean c'mon Porsche, you put 450 HP in a truck but "only" 381 HP in a race car like the GT3? No wonder people go for Mercedes. Porsche has to understand that not all customers are interested in details like handling or weight as we are. So they see on one side 420 HP and on the other side for the same money 500 HP. Now guess which car they buy?!
    The new Carrera GT underpowered? Well, yes and no. It offers great performance but for a car in that price range, it should have 700 HP minimum. You'll be surprised about the upcoming Mercedes SLR which will put not only the CGT but also the Enzo to the shame. Well, it won't be a Porsche and it won't be a Ferrari but it probably will kick ass. And this is what counts...power and reputation. I wouldn't be surprised to see even 700 HP and more on the upcoming SLR.

     
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