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    Feb 26, 2006 12:00:58 PM

    RCA
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    Sportscar Philosophy

    Many of you are surprised that the Tiptronic S is faster than manual on the new 997 Turbo. A lot of questions have been raised about how "sporty" a Tiptronic operated 997 Turbo would be. Many people also think that a true sportscar has to have a manual gearbox, or at least a sequential shifting system.

    Now here's a question for you guys:

    Since a sequential shifting system has an auto mode too and since the Tiptronic S has a manual mode, what is actually the difference between both? (of course I know the difference but I would like to hear it from you).

    And I want to ask another thing: since the new GT3 and GT3RS get the PASM chassis, does this mean that the GT3 and GT3 RS aren't real sportscars anymore?

    So what is important to you? Is it important how fast you are? Does it really count if you're using a manual, automatic or sequential gearbox? Is this a matter of "philosophy", of tradition or do you really think a Tiptronic operated car wouldn't be fun to drive? What about a sequential shifting system then?

    Yes, my questions are a little bit provocative, I agree. But I want to know the reasons for your claims/choices.

    Why is Tiptronic bad, why is manual good? What is the difference between a sequential shifting system and Tiptronic in manual mode? (I'm not talking about fractions of seconds of shifting time advantage but about the "usage" of both, the fun).

    I don't know, I remember a time when some people made fun of the F1 gearbox in the 360 Modena until Ferrari was clever enough to advertise it as a direct development coming from the Formula One (even with the same name ).

    And I would like to ask you another thing: some people would have wished for 500 or 510 HP in the new 997 Turbo. We all know that the 480 HP are quick, the performance figures are impressive, no matter if the best ones are achieved with Tiptronic. So how much faster do you think another 30 HP would make you? Or is it again just a matter of principle?!

    Don't get me wrong: I agree with some of the feelings and disappointmens. But I'm not sure I really understood the explenations for these feelings and disappointments. Honestly. Please enlighten me...

    Feb 26, 2006 12:08:27 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    RC said:

    Since a sequential shifting system has an auto mode too and since the Tiptronic S has a manual mode, what is actually the difference between both? (of course I know the difference but I would like to hear it from you).




    Easy answer: the auto tranny changes gears much slower (up and down shifts).

    You can feel that immediately when driving a DSG equipped car.

    This also implies that acceleration figures of a DSG car will be better than the Tip equivalents.

    Also: 5 gears (as in case of the 997TT) are really no longer state of the art.

    Feb 26, 2006 12:10:26 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And I want to ask another thing: since the new GT3 and GT3RS get the PASM chassis, does this mean that the GT3 and GT3 RS aren't real sportscars anymore?




    Porsche states on their web site that the softer PASM mode is similar to the old GT3 set-up. The sports mode has been specially designed for track usage (Hockenheim etc.).

    I do not have a problem with that. Makes the car even more sporty.

    Feb 26, 2006 12:13:04 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Is this a matter of "philosophy", of tradition or do you really think a Tiptronic operated car wouldn't be fun to drive? What about a sequential shifting system then?




    I only tested a 997 with Tiptronic once. This car was very unpleasant to drive. The Tip ruins driving experience.

    I cannot imagine that the 997TT Tip should feel that different. It will be a disappointment as well.

    P.S.: Just look at those silly shift buttons on the steering feel. What a joke.

    Feb 26, 2006 12:16:02 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Why is Tiptronic bad, why is manual good? What is the difference between a sequential shifting system and Tiptronic in manual mode? (I'm not talking about fractions of seconds of shifting time advantage but about the "usage" of both, the fun).




    Manual is not good. It is also out-dated. DSG would be good.

    The problem is that Porsche still offers Tip technology of the last decade. 5 gears, based on the old DC system

    RC, have you ever driven a DSG equipped car? DSG is really an improvement compared to the manual mode of the Tiptronic.

    Feb 26, 2006 12:23:17 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And I would like to ask you another thing: some people would have wished for 500 or 510 HP in the new 997 Turbo. We all know that the 480 HP are quick, the performance figures are impressive, no matter if the best ones are achieved with Tiptronic. So how much faster do you think another 30 HP would make you? Or is it again just a matter of principle?!




    The performance figures are far from impressive. They are rather poor.

    The manual version is not faster than the 2yr old F430 for example. A Z06 is faster, etc.

    You have to order the Tip version to get a significant improvement vs. the old 996TTS. However, the Tip is no choice for me.

    I prefer to own a modern sports car. Not a museum of auto tranny technology of the 90s. Sorry.

    I need around 11 seconds for 0-200kph (should be no problem with 510hp and PDK).

    The 599GTB and the new Murcielago offer that performance. And honestly: a well equipped 997TT (with appropriate leather, ceramic breaks etc.) is around Euro 160k. A 599GTB will be around 220k or so. Even though 60k are a substantial price difference I neglect it as 150k are also quite a lot of money. I rather pay 60k more and get leading performance as compared to spending 150k for a compromise

    Feb 26, 2006 12:55:42 PM

    GA
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    RC, interesting and provocative thoughts. It all comes down to definitions... what the potential buyer believes a "sports car" should be. 50 to 70 years ago, a sports car equaled a race car and vise versa, now these definitions have diverged. A race car is designed to be the fastest around a course and use all available technology to achieve this goal.... irrespective of whether its "fun to drive". A sports car, on the other hand, should be "fun to drive". So, I believe some people want it all, and wanting it "all" is becoming mutually exclusive.

    Feb 26, 2006 1:04:31 PM

    Nick_Athens Offline
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:





    The performance figures are far from impressive. They are rather poor.

    The manual version is not faster than the 2yr old F430 for example. A Z06 is faster, etc.

    You have to order the Tip version to get a significant improvement vs. the old 996TTS. However, the Tip is no choice for me.

    I prefer to own a modern sports car. Not a museum of auto tranny technology of the 90s. Sorry.

    I need around 11 seconds for 0-200kph (should be no problem with 510hp and PDK).

    The 599GTB and the new Murcielago offer that performance. And honestly: a well equipped 997TT (with appropriate leather, ceramic breaks etc.) is around Euro 160k. A 599GTB will be around 220k or so. Even though 60k are a substantial price difference I neglect it as 150k are also quite a lot of money. I rather pay 60k more and get leading performance as compared to spending 150k for a compromise



    This is the ansear you are looking for RC...

    Feb 26, 2006 2:22:08 PM

    donkeyman
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    Reply to: Nick_Athens

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I agree that the 5 speed Tiptronic is rather outdated. Given that this is the "flagship" car in Porsche's range, it would have been used to launch the DSG. I guess we will have to either wait for the 997 facelift or the 998 to see this.

    Maybe Porsche wil surprise us with something very special in a few years.

    As for 480hp and PASM, this is fine with me.

    Feb 26, 2006 3:12:39 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: donkeyman

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I thinkf Porsche made a marketing mistake call the Tiptronic S the same in the turbo. After all, on the paper, it is much improved. They could have found a name to describe it preparing the way for the PDK.

    Also the biggest dissapointement for most is the lack of PDK. People were ready to get better performance with a DSG sequential box, but not with the "Tiptronic S" box.

    Last before bashing the manual performance, let's get some real test (0-xxx or NBR). I think Porsche was conservative (they even imply in the Masterwerk presentation that it is hard for most people to match semi-pro drivers times, like some journalists). The new turbo hasd 60 more HP and a higher flatter torque with the same weight, do you really think it is not faster than the old turbo?

    Feb 26, 2006 4:01:41 PM

    guy2
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    in general there is just one small problem with automatic transmissions, the torque converter. (drehmomentwandler in german) this is the reason, why most automatic cars are a little bit slower, need more fuel and feel sluggish sometimes. but on the other side it increases comfort. so this is the right transmission for a s-class or 7series.

    a smg or dsg does not have a torque converter and therefore no such problems.

    anyway for daily driving with a lot of stop and go a tiptronic is very relaxing and i wouldn't mind to drive one. ok, maybe not a gt3 but a turbo with tiptronic is more than enough for daily use!

    Feb 26, 2006 4:37:12 PM

    intouch1
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    to me it could not matter less. what counts is the performance, slushbox, manual, pdk, sequential who cares ?

    what counts is the performance at the end. the faster you go around the track determines the level of involvement and not the way you shift gears.

    i race karts, non shifter carts. its a complete workout...talk about involvement !

    Feb 26, 2006 4:42:02 PM

    Joost
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    Reply to: guy2

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    To me (as someone who never drove a 911) it comes down to driving pleasure. I would like to have a manual car. No matter what the performance is compared to the tiptronic. I love selecting gears, throttling, the reaction of the car when you make that one perfect downshift, etc. But I can understand that there are people that want the fastest car, every 1/100st of a second counts to them. Or driving comfort... stau driving with an automatic is far more comfortable than with a manual...
    PSM... I think it should not be on the GT3, or at least it should be able to switch completely off, because it actively takes away tasks from the driver. I think in a pure sportscar, one should be able to choose whether or not to be guarded by an electronic guardian angel. PASM; harder question... It makes the car perform better, and does not intrude when the driver goes over his border... I think I have nothing against that...

    Hopefully, RC, I made clear that to me, driving is about pleasure and emotion... I like to drive, and I like to be good at it. And sometimes, emotion takes over from rational thinking... there are some points which I cannot clarify by ration.
    -Joost-

    Feb 26, 2006 5:01:38 PM

    Super DariusM
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    Reply to: Joost

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Today i was driving my Cayenne S..

    Well..i try to think i was on the 997 TT ,and i try to use the Tiptronic like if i will have it on the 997 TT....
    well..is better that i don't tell nothing..

    For me is impossible to use tiptronic with "sport drive" mode on
    ..on my Cayenne i use ever in auto mode,never in "manual" using buttons ....is not natural the position of the hands on the steering wheel..i can't find a good way to use that buttons..
    If the Tiptronic on the 997TT takes the paddle shift,like on the 430,Gallardo etc. is good..but is not good with those buttons on the steering wheel...

    So..becouse i know that if i buy the 997TT with the Tiptronic the end i make, is the one to use ever in automatic mode like on my Cay,is better that i buy in manual,i will loose some time on hard acceleration,but i will have pleasure of driving..thing that i haven't with a tiptronic...

    And the same thing i think will happen also with DSG without paddle shift..

    So,i think the problem is not the tiptronic or DSG,but the way to change gear..(paddle shift or buttons?)




    ciao

    Feb 26, 2006 5:03:13 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    The hp issue is bogus. 480 is more than enough to satisfy and fulfill top driver needs whether on the track or street use. It will be a rare occcasion when someone will be able to use the full power for more than 30 sec.

    I have tiptronic in my Cayenne and it stinks. I never use it. The buttons on the steering wheel are a joke compared to paddles. The shifting in a true sequential transmission is light years ahead of Tiptronic.

    Porsche is selling old technology by making it a tad faster in acceleration. I suspect they had Von Saurma drive it one with clear instructions as to which will be the faster. In this manner they can sell a lot more of the old Tiptronic. This is all about money.

    Finally regarding perf. numbers, I am flabbergasted that some people complain. My god how much faster does the car need to be? At what point is enough enough? In 10 years 0-62 in 1.5 sec.? In 20, 0-62 cannot measure because the car was already at 62mph before the clock was started?

    Feb 26, 2006 5:43:39 PM

    Walter
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    What's so interesting about straight line performance???

    Feb 26, 2006 5:51:46 PM

    Lazy Cat
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    Reply to: Walter

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy



    Interesting post, RC!

    I don't like automatic gearboxes for many reasons

    -Upshifts are a bit too slow

    -You don't decide EXACTLY when the shifting happens

    -The link between the engine and the wheels always seems softer than with a normal clutch

    -The downshifts are horrible, you don't do exactly what you want.

    -You don't do what you want with the clutch for fast starts.

    -Even with the latest automatic gearboxes, there is a big waste of power.

    -Another problem is that automatic gearboxes are totally out of date for sports cars in 2006. Many other companies have better technical solutions.

    For me it's not a question of being fun or not.Of course you can have fun with an automatic 997 TT, but the funniest way will always be manual, and the fastest way will be sequential.

    Another advantage of the sequential gearbox is that you can fully concentrate on the grip limits, while still having the full control on the transmission.

    Manual is also much more rewardind if you like "heel and toe" downshifting.

    About the PASM, i'd say that it depends on how intrusive it is, and if you can turn it off or not.

    About the power, i don't care if it's 20 bhp over or under, the important thing is how fast and fun the car is.

    Feb 26, 2006 7:12:17 PM

    Eden
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I don't think I would ever consider the Porsche Tiptronic version non matter how much faster than manual it is...to me the manual gives better feedback. I shall stick with manual until Porsche bring out the PDK.

    Feb 26, 2006 7:46:09 PM

    strawman
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Great question. I agree with your sentiment

    Feb 26, 2006 8:20:57 PM

    davew (cincy)
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I've never liked the soft, delayed, shift of the tip. If this unit is truely faster, the my guess is that it will not feel soft, or delyed - so I am looking forward to a real evaluation - then I will decide.

    I have to admit that the convenience of automatic is attractive - and getting top performance each time I push down the accelerator (only) without using up the clutch does get my attention - but it all comes down to the way the shift will feel, and how that affects the drive.

    Feb 26, 2006 8:38:09 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: Nick_Athens

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    IMHO I believe that many people are comparing the 997tt to a 996tt w/X50. That is not a direct comparison. There may not yet be an X upgrade or an S, however, we all know there will be. I think the comparisons should be relevant.
    I too wished for a little more hp, but the torque spread on the 997 is a great improvement; especially w/overboost -which is substantial. An 997tt still has 65 hp more ponies than the standard 996tt.

    Feb 26, 2006 8:38:53 PM

    Hurst
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The hp issue is bogus. 480 is more than enough to satisfy and fulfill top driver needs whether on the track or street use. It will be a rare occcasion when someone will be able to use the full power for more than 30 sec.

    I have tiptronic in my Cayenne and it stinks. I never use it. The buttons on the steering wheel are a joke compared to paddles. The shifting in a true sequential transmission is light years ahead of Tiptronic.

    Porsche is selling old technology by making it a tad faster in acceleration. I suspect they had Von Saurma drive it one with clear instructions as to which will be the faster. In this manner they can sell a lot more of the old Tiptronic. This is all about money.

    Finally regarding perf. numbers, I am flabbergasted that some people complain. My god how much faster does the car need to be? At what point is enough enough? In 10 years 0-62 in 1.5 sec.? In 20, 0-62 cannot measure because the car was already at 62mph before the clock was started?



    Golden

    Feb 26, 2006 8:39:27 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Most of the time I agree with your opinion RC but, not this time...
    Why are many of us here feel that new 997 Turbo is not what we expected? Here is some of mine thoughts... Despite the fact that we now have pretty good technical explaination from Porsche why is TIP faster(in straight line!) then manual I have a feeling that new 997 Turbo was from start designed as TIP car with added manual option(something as AM DB9)... Fact that everybody(old lady and schoolboy) can achive fastest acceleration(TIP!) with little effort bothers me a lot! Is now 997 Turbo a car for old ladies and gentleman? Maybe... Many of us here wondered what option will be faster around track-TIP or manual? Despite what RC told us my guess is manual with LSD option. Quote from PCNA "For those whishing to challenge themselves on a racetrack, and who prefer the control and selection of the 6-speed, the manual gearbox will remain the transmission of choice."
    And despite awsome TIP acceleration times it is still dated 5-speed MB autogearbox, IMO.
    Every thing else like PTM is truly state of the art...
    My 997 Turbo will be manual with LSD.
    Regarding DSG(or PDK)-I tried DSG in new Golf GTI and Audi A3 3.2... IMO, DSG is more like autobox then manual. This transmission is still far from perfect... I like more manual Golf GTI then DSG but, that my personal opinion.
    Will we have PDK in 997 Turbo? I do not think so... What will happened with all TIP and manual buyers if Porsche introduces PDK for 997 Turbo in MY2008?? Huge bitter taste in their mouths!
    But, why don't we all wait till first official tests in German auto press(AMS, AZ or Sport Auto)? Only one thing-they all will have to test both 997 Turbo in TIP and manual(with LSD) version together!

    Feb 26, 2006 8:40:51 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    People are fine with 480HP because the torque (with sports chrono) is higher and very usable.

    The focus of critics is really on the lack of PDK.

    Feb 26, 2006 8:46:52 PM

    Hurst
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    Reply to: Hurst

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Why do we do what we do as humans? There must be some element of aura manufactured by human beings...

    Let me give a short little story, with regards to something I value similarly to sportscars: Wine.

    A lot of wine buffs really hate large amalgamated corporations such as Robert Mondavi and Kendall Jackson. These "regional freaks" claim that these huge vineries are destroying the terroir of individual producers, who painstackingly apply themselves to their craft.

    What do we look for in the things in life that matter most to us? Is it the raw figures, the final result (I mean, Mondavi makes a wonderful "Opus One", by any oenthique's pallate, one of the finer wines in the world?). Is this what life's highest pleasures are all about?

    For me, it is not. It is about something that supercedes statistics. It is something that supercedes numerics.

    It stems from emotion, from feeling and from enjoyment.

    For some people, the sight, the sound, the heritage of the Porsche will make them teary to the thought of the lineage of racing.

    For some, the curvelinear design of the F430's aesthetic mastery makes them appreciate how aesthetics can compliment sheer performance.

    I personally find my enjoyment with autosports in these regards. And I find none of this enjoyment from a tiptronic transmission.

    It is the feel, the sense, the taste...The very thought that beguiles me. I don't want to be beguiled by a sportscar, I want to be awed by it. Tiptronic cannot awe me, just the way that a Buggatti Veyron couldn't awe my senses (except for its sheer manipulation of physics). This is why...

    Feb 26, 2006 8:49:49 PM

    paczo911
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Nick is right on the acceleration part! The 997 Turbo, factory claimed, could do 0-100 kph, for example with the manual transmission, in 3.9 seconds, WITHOUT the Sport Chrono Turbo, which for me means, that WITH the Sport Chrono Turbo it could do 0-100 kph in about 3.7 seconds, maybe even lower! Mind you, with MANUAL transmission! That is sooo fast, 0-160 kph and 0-200 kph times should be much lower than the claimed ones too, especially WITH the Sport Chrono Turbo!

    For those of you, who think that the new 911 Turbo is such a slow car, I can only advice you, to wait for the first tests of the car! Just do that. I'm pretty confident, that it will be miles ahead of its rivals, it will be a real acceleration monster! I don't mean to offend anybody, just my opinion!

    And if I could afford a 997 Turbo, well, manual transmission for me, please!!!

    Feb 26, 2006 8:58:06 PM

    paczo911
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    Reply to: Hurst

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    By the way, Hurst, great post!!! Greetings!

    Feb 26, 2006 9:13:45 PM

    gbj
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    Reply to: Super DariusM

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Super Darius - Do you know - I'm the same - I tried the manul tip on my Cayenne Turbo and I really don't like it. In fact I only use the auto which is fine in such a large motor.

    I've ordered the 997 TT as a manual - who cares about 0.2 seconds. It'll be much more fun ! And really what is the point in complaining until you drive the beast.

    Feb 26, 2006 9:53:28 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Drivers (including many who posted in this thread above) who claim that there is no difference between a car that can go, say, 0-160kph/100mph in less than 7 seconds versus 8+ seconds are either (a) dishonest with themselves and with us, or (b) cryptically opposed to street-legal cars with this much performance potential (for good or bad reasons).

    And for those who say the horsepower obsession is baseless, they are either misinformed or wishfully thinking. We are all forgetting that the modern 911Turbo engine is INTENTIONALLY underpowered by a large margin, that the car is capable of producing much more power than factory-specified with an easily palpable performance limitation. This is what bothers me most about the 997TT as advertised pre-release: Porsche could have easily built and programmed the car to make 550+ peak HP and lb-ft torque with no mechanical mods., with a measurable and noticeable performance gain and with barely an iota of reliability risk, in BOTH TipS AND manual versions, just as was the case with the 993 and 996 Turbo's. Only this time with the 997TT, the competition, via greater engine displacement, is gaining on, and passing the King, turning the 911Turbo into a GT car/wife's car.

    Feb 26, 2006 10:01:12 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    nberry said:The shifting in a true sequential transmission is light years ahead of Tiptronic.


    Nick - You realize that the F430 does not have a true sequential gearbox, right? The only vehicles that have that are racecars (not street legal, except for Radical and a few others) and motorcycles. The F430 has a traditional H-pattern gearbox that is electro-hydraulically manipulated...
     
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