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    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Ha! Now we are talking! Let me sort out my pics and I'll send you some more info. The good thing with this car is that P has now factory components that can take the engine to a different levels! Consider tobby's car; 2 cats, 2 ICs and an ecu tune and the car is already in a different level! Hint; the gt2 expansion intake costs 500 euro.. The IC's will improve throttle response, turbo lag and will give you 15 hp in ideal conditions and a hell of a lot more in real life conditions. And the best thing is that the actually improve the operation of the engine.. Now finding the best ones..well as tobby will tell you this another story. The US units (what I have) are already much better than stock and for the price they are good enough..

    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    GT, thanks for sharing. Sounds like you are having fun, no? Yes the IC I do know; I've been told many times the Intercooler is a critical component, the next thing to go. After the clutch I guess.

    For whatever reason, I misread your other post and mistakenly thought you had switched to a stand alone engine management system. At any rate, pics or you're banned. LOL.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    cannga:
    bigwillystyle:

    hey Can, great to see u here again, just got my suspension setup , its awesome, feel much more confidence now, as for ecu tuning, what do you guys think about Softronic or Revo?

    cheers,

    Will

    What kind of octane rating is gasoline in Hong Kong? Besides US companies, I would also give Cargraphic/RS Tuning a strong consideration. The cost is higher (US $5000 or so I think), but is within striking distance of US offerings (US $3000 or so for EVOMS/GIAC).

    I really don't know enough about and have no direct experience with either Revo or Softronic to give a recommendation. Softronic is a very recent entry to the US market. Neither Revo nor Softronic ranks high in number of US sales based on my web "research" (grin). GIAC is not available in your area?

    Bilstein: I agree. An absolute no brainer recommendation for mod if ever there's one. For totally market-driven motive, PAG (Volkswagen-PAG? Smiley) decided to take the Turbo toward a very soft direction starting with the 996 Turbo, and continue with the 997. The flaw of the Turbo, is simply a matter of philosophy, not engineering, and therefore is so easily correctable.
    (BTW, for the same reason, although I think 997.2 Turbo WILL be faster, my opinion is that unless PAG has a total change of heart, which is extremely unlikely, 997.2 Turbo will still be a soft GT class car and will require the same "suspension stiffening" mod, the same "louder exhaust" mod as now. The more things change...)

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    hi Can,

    I run 98 oct here, but i have heard that 98 oct hk is similar to 95 oct usa. (really not sure about this) anyhow, i am still looking into the different ecu's. really considering EVOMSit but i dont want my car to sound too loud either.  I currently have a FVD sports exhaust with 200 cat, so i might get the FVD ecu.  Anyone here have experienced with Protomotive ecu?  Abit off topic here, anyone done a TCU (tipronic computer upgrade)?


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    bigwillystyle:
    cannga:
    bigwillystyle:

    hey Can, great to see u here again, just got my suspension setup , its awesome, feel much more confidence now, as for ecu tuning, what do you guys think about Softronic or Revo?

    cheers,

    Will

    What kind of octane rating is gasoline in Hong Kong? Besides US companies, I would also give Cargraphic/RS Tuning a strong consideration. The cost is higher (US $5000 or so I think), but is within striking distance of US offerings (US $3000 or so for EVOMS/GIAC).

    I really don't know enough about and have no direct experience with either Revo or Softronic to give a recommendation. Softronic is a very recent entry to the US market. Neither Revo nor Softronic ranks high in number of US sales based on my web "research" (grin). GIAC is not available in your area?

    Bilstein: I agree. An absolute no brainer recommendation for mod if ever there's one. For totally market-driven motive, PAG (Volkswagen-PAG? Smiley) decided to take the Turbo toward a very soft direction starting with the 996 Turbo, and continue with the 997. The flaw of the Turbo, is simply a matter of philosophy, not engineering, and therefore is so easily correctable.
    (BTW, for the same reason, although I think 997.2 Turbo WILL be faster, my opinion is that unless PAG has a total change of heart, which is extremely unlikely, 997.2 Turbo will still be a soft GT class car and will require the same "suspension stiffening" mod, the same "louder exhaust" mod as now. The more things change...)

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    hi Can,

    I run 98 oct here, but i have heard that 98 oct hk is similar to 95 oct usa. (really not sure about this) anyhow, i am still looking into the different ecu's. really considering EVOMSit but i dont want my car to sound too loud either.  I currently have a FVD sports exhaust with 200 cat, so i might get the FVD ecu.  Anyone here have experienced with Protomotive ecu?  Abit off topic here, anyone done a TCU (tipronic computer upgrade)?

     

    95 octane in europe = 91 octane in US
    98 octane in europe = 92/93 octane in US

    I have had a Protomotive ecu for 3 years and it is very aggressive and meant for good fuel only. The proto tune will increase your redline to 7300 rpm and will delete all the speed and rev limiters in each gear which none of the others do, as far as I know. 

    It is not adjustable back and forth to stock and race modes like some of the others so I would get a spare ecu for it and leave yours stock. Performance wise it outperforms most of the others based on my personal experience on street and track (airstrip runs).

    Customer service is the best, Todd Knighton is a great guy and very helpful, he is been doing Porsche turbo ecus exclusively for 25 years.


    --

    2007 997 TT Protomotive

    2005 F430

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Hey AAHTT

    What do you mean by good fuel, is 98 oct euro good enough? are there other mods other than the ecu and exhaust in your car? one more question, with the rev limiter delete, does this mean i can go pass the redline and blow the engine up? , cheers.


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    bigwillystyle:


    hi Can,

    I run 98 oct here, but i have heard that 98 oct hk is similar to 95 oct usa. (really not sure about this) anyhow, i am still looking into the different ecu's. really considering EVOMSit but i dont want my car to sound too loud either.  I currently have a FVD sports exhaust with 200 cat, so i might get the FVD ecu.  Anyone here have experienced with Protomotive ecu?  Abit off topic here, anyone done a TCU (tipronic computer upgrade)?

    Will, you could read about the octane rating here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating . It seems to me you do have the higher rating.

    I think one of the most important things about ECU upgrade is post sale support. In fact I think it's critical so if it were me, I would choose the company with the strongest local support, where you are.

    The idea of a ECU tune that is the same as your car's exhaust is appealing.  I do not know about the FVD ECU tune; maybe you should post a thread here and on www.6speedonline.com to ask?

    Protomotive is a well known US tuner with excellent reputation. I was given a ride by Anthony (AAHTT) when his Turbo had the Protomotive stage 2 tune and it was impressive and scary Smiley. It was smooth, in a violent way LOL,  and fast, very fast. I think his car's seat and door handle still have my finger marks. I came out of the car slightly disturbed, to say the least.

    The EVOMS tune was noisy in my car, but it really could be my specific car, specific exhaust, or specific difficult ear that is the "problem." But yes, I would pay attention to this, particularly if you have a "loud" car already.

    One thing for sure, the ECU tune will bring more power and the 2 I've tried both practically eliminate lag, and both literally make cars next to mine disappear in an instant, like that warp speed effect on Star Trek.
    It does make one FEEL like he owns the most powerful and fastest car on the road. I mean it! 

     

    >>>>>>>>>>>

    From Wikipedia:
    This higher rating seen in Europe is an artifact of a different underlying measuring procedure. In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in the United States, Canada and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90–91 US (R+M)/2, and deliver 98 (RON), 99 or 100 (RON) labeled as Super Unleaded.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    bigwillystyle:

    Hey AAHTT

    What do you mean by good fuel, is 98 oct euro good enough? are there other mods other than the ecu and exhaust in your car? one more question, with the rev limiter delete, does this mean i can go pass the redline and blow the engine up? , cheers.


    sorry for the late response but euro 98 (92/93 US) would be the lowest acceptable with a proto tune. euro 95 (91 US) will work too but proto says not to drive hard with it for fear of detonation.

    the rev limiter is not deleted, it is pushed to 7300 rpm, but this is done in all gears including 6th gear plus the speed limiters of each gear are deleted (yes the car has a speed limiter for each gear programmed in the ecu). Only proto deletes those as I have asked GIAC a long time ago if they do it and they said no for liability reasons and tires rating issues if I recall, since the car will go over 210 mph easily with a 7300 rpm redline.

    if you want to go really fast, proto will upgrade your compressors and with their big intercoolers and some good headers, the car will be a little quicker than an enzo, dont ask me how I know...


    --

    2007 997 TT Protomotive

    2005 F430

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    A good thread on Intercooler for anyone interested; some basic information posted by a well known US Porsche shop, AWE, web site here: AWE Tuning. AWE is among a handful of US companies that make intercooler & the GIAC/AWE package is what "eclou" uses to achieve his Turbo's rather remarkable time.
    They don't visit rennteam so if you have any question, please post there.

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/180208-intercooler-upgrade.html


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Ecu remapping has to be one of the best, simplist and easiest modifications one could  to increase bhp and driveability of any car, but more effective of turbo charged vehicles.

    Yes your losing the porsche factory program, but at the end of the day even though it's porsche and they seem to know best obviously when programing the car they throw in many factors which cripple performance and drivability.

    Remaps make night and day difference, and it's not just a simple runs higher boost program but changes boost, fuel / ignition timings, aswell as making the engine very responsive on drive by wire throttles and smoothing out any flat spots.

    it's unbelieveable how much better you can make the best better.

    But what always fasinates me is how two same capacity engines can have different bhp's!

     

     

     


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    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    911digital:

    Ecu remapping has to be one of the best, simplest and easiest modifications one could  to increase bhp and driveability of any car, but more effective of turbo charged vehicles.

    Yes your losing the porsche factory program, but at the end of the day even though it's porsche and they seem to know best obviously when programing the car they throw in many factors which cripple performance and drivability.

    ... 

    Hi there. I agreed with everything you wrote, except one! Smiley There are ways to do this now such that you don't really lose the factory program.

    1. My DME is loaded onto a second, brand-new ECU box that I bought. In other words, I have 2 boxes now, one with the GIAC that's in my car, the other, with all original data and program, on window sill in front of my desk. Smiley

    2. Not only that, 2 US companies, GIAC and APR, now have tune programs that allow owner to switch back to stock timing tables, stock boost maps, etc., with a simple push of a button. GIAC uses an external unit (picture below as installed in my car); APR uses the Cruise Control stalk.
    I do find the back to stock mode feature quite useful when driving in heavy traffic, or during long cruise with my wife, when we need to "talk" Smiley, etc..

    But of course you're right about ECU tuning; I used to be skeptical but not anymore. Still getting used to the sight of cars next to mine simply vanish -- wish I had done it sooner.
    Everyday I am finding it harder and harder to go back to stock program as the car in stock mode feels so lazy and so slow in comparison.

    08AE3976.jpg

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Cann,

    I forgot - W/ the AWE 700 kit, I.C.'s, headers, Turbo's etc - Is the ECU the same as the one you put in your car & then the rest of the HP comes from the other bolt-on stuff ?? The reason I'm asking is - If eventually you want to have the 700 kit like eclou can you start w/ just the ECU?  Or is the ECU tune specific to/w/ the other mods? tia~

     


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    STRADALE:

    Cann,

    I forgot - W/ the AWE 700 kit, I.C.'s, headers, Turbo's etc - Is the ECU the same as the one you put in your car & then the rest of the HP comes from the other bolt-on stuff ?? The reason I'm asking is - If eventually you want to have the 700 kit like eclou can you start w/ just the ECU?  Or is the ECU tune specific to/w/ the other mods? tia~
    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

     

    Hi Gregg, I assume you're talking about the stages of Turbo upgrading. I don't know how much you know or have looked into this, but first let me go through these stages. There is no fixed definition, but this is more or less how I see them:

    Stage 1: ECU tune only. Almost no one does, or recommends, this. If you are going to tune the ECU, first change the exhaust.
    Stage 2: ECU tune with after-market exhaust, usually with 200 cell cat (versus the 600 cell stock unit - AFAIK) to reduce back pressure.
    Stage 3: ECU tune with after market exhaust and intercooler.
    Stage 4: ECU tune with after market exhaust, intercooler, and larger turbo.

    As you could see, each stage adds a piece of hardware. At least for 2 companies that I am familiar with, GIAC and EVOMS, each of the 3 hardware addition above does come with a software modification.
    In other words, say you are at Stage 2 and you want to add an intercooler. You could add an intercooler without changing the software and still see some benefit that comes from a reduction in IAT (intake air temp) and EGT (exhaust gas temp).  However the benefit would be more (power), if you change the software as well.

    So to answer your question, both software and hardware change as you progress up the ladder. I don't plan to go beyond stage 2 so I haven't looked into the cost involved, but a software "stage-upgrade" should cost a lot less than the initial payment. The beauty about this is It's like going to a Chinese restaurant, you start with shark-fin soup and then add more as your hunger dictates. Smiley AFAIK it doesn't cost a lot more to do it in steps, and that's most definitely how I would go about this were I to move up.

    Some people also consider adding a header a separate stage. But no software upgrade is done for this, so I think of it as an "accessory" to be added in the later stages. There are other "accessories" as well, to be added "a la carte" Smiley, like larger throttle body, diverter valve, etc.
    My feeling about this (just humble opinion, no statistics) is that the chance of something breaks goes higher as you move up the ladder; and as you add more hardware, there are then MORE  "things" to come loose and break. A stage 2 seems to have an almost 100% safety record from what I have seen; the other stages have excellent record as well, but I am leery. So even though the idea of an intercooler is very hard to resist (the folks at GIAC mentions the phrase "intercooler upgrade" about 26 times Smiley when my car was being tuned), I haven't pulled the trigger.

    The flashloader is a must-have if you are going to go with GIAC; I can't see how one could get GIAC and NOT buy the flashloader. Even if you don't plan to switch back and forth between the modes, the ability to do so allows you to switch and confirm, and learn from the very interesting subtle and not-so-subtle differences, between stock and tuned. It's a lot of fun.
     

     

    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Somewhere in this long winded thread, someone Smiley talked about the 3 parameters that tuners play around with to increase power:
    1. Timing
    2. Boost
    3. Air fuel ratio (AFR)
    We’ve had a few posts on timing, below is a very nice basic discussion on AFR from a Garrett web site. (You might want to click on the site and explore – lots of great info. Garrett/Honeywell btw makes OEM turbo's for various car companies.)

    A glimpse into ECU tuning: During my time at GIAC, among the myriad of other things that the guys were looking at that went right above my head,  the one thing that I did notice was the AFR curve. The AFR curve, or that’s what I think it was LOL (I was trying not to be in the way and not impede their work too much.), was in fact superimposed on the dyno curve and was manipulated by the engineers during the various dyno runs.

    In retrospect, it’s too bad I don’t know enough to ask them more meaningful questions (I would have loved to; this stuff somehow fascinates me.), but the gist of it is I think, meaning I am speculating Smiley, they were trying to make the curve smooth and to meet a certain goal for the AFR that is:
    a. safe with respect to knock and EGT
    b. bring more power.

    I haven’t got permission to post what’s going on with my car after the tune, but FWIW and for comparison with the numbers below, before the tune I believe the average stock AFR is around 13 and the range within +/- 10% of this.

    http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech102.html
    Air/Fuel Ratio tuning: Rich v. Lean, why lean makes more power but is more dangerous

    When discussing engine tuning the 'Air/Fuel Ratio' (AFR) is one of the main topics. Proper AFR calibration is critical to performance and durability of the engine and it's components. The AFR defines the ratio of the amount of air consumed by the engine compared to the amount of fuel.

    A 'stoichiometric' AFR has the correct amount of air and fuel to produce a chemically complete combustion event. For gasoline engines, the stoichiometric A/F ratio is 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. The stoichiometric AFR depends on fuel type-- for alcohol it is 6.4:1 and 14.5:1 for diesel.

    So what is meant by a rich or lean AFR? A lower AFR number contains less air than the 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR, therefore it is a richer mixture. Conversely, a higher AFR number contains more air and therefore it is a leaner mixture.

    For Example:
    15.0:1 = Lean
    14.7:1 = Stoichiometric
    13.0:1 = Rich

    Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine.

    Let's take a closer look. As the air-fuel mixture is ignited by the spark plug, a flame front propagates from the spark plug. The now-burning mixture raises the cylinder pressure and temperature, peaking at some point in the combustion process.

    The turbocharger increases the density of the air resulting in a denser mixture. The denser mixture raises the peak cylinder pressure, therefore increasing the probability of knock. As the AFR is leaned out, the temperature of the burning gases increases, which also increases the probability of knock. This is why it is imperative to run richer AFR on a boosted engine at full load. Doing so will reduce the likelihood of knock, and will also keep temperatures under control.

    There are actually three ways to reduce the probability of knock at full load on a turbocharged engine: reduce boost, adjust the AFR to richer mixture, and retard ignition timing. These three parameters need to be optimized together to yield the highest reliable power.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    If stage 2 is the safest tuning stage, then stage 3 is by definition even safer! The addition of ICs reduce the intake temperature (which should be high up in the list for ways to increase power) and with a positive effect on reliability and engine "health". As a result you get more power, better response, better consumption and more reliability. Can don't agonise and buy them. The only question should be which ones! Re AFRs, indeed they are crucial to performance AND reliability. Most engine failures of tuned cars are due to too rich or usually too lean AFRs. The 997tt ecu has a vast list of safety parametres to correct those things by altering boost, ignition timing and afr but if ecu not tuned properly and those parametres are breached then the result will be a car running worse than stock..

    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

     

    Just thought I would add my findings on this since I saw Can discussing intercooling on 6Bling with the usual replies being wheeled out.
     
    As (some) readers know I commissioned some intercoolers to be made by a an aerospace company who also make radiators for F1.
     
    My intercoolers were tested by me and by RS Tuning on the road – basically running at full boost up to near maximum speed and reading off the maximum intake air temperatures achieved and evaluating when compared to the known performance of the stock configuration at the given ambient temperature.
     
    Basically mine performed virtually as well as the $20K Secan units.
     
    So what to do in terms of tuning when one has the headroom of the better intercooling ? There is talk from the ECU chassis dyno tuners that they can “tune” for better intercooling….. when I see how RS do it I find it difficult to see how the chassis dyno boys can “tune” with any accuracy……
     
    RS knows from the road testing conditions the maximum IATs which the car will reasonably see (this is a moot point since for RS the “reasonable” temps are maximum load in 6th gear in 27degC ambient !) and he attempts to tune to keep maximum timing advance in these conditions.
     
    He uses a water cooled intercooler with which he can control the IAT by increasing or decreasing the water flow so he can run the engine under any load with any IAT, this is THE key to the tuning (apart from obviously the experience of doing the best Porsche turbo race engines so he knows just how far to take things)
     
    With my motor he kept the IATs between 32DegC and 47DegC which for a 997GT2 means he knows that my intercoolers are working well since the stock car even at 20DegC ambient sees 55+degC intake even in 4th gear !
     
    So getting back to the chassis dyno tuners, I guess they do a similar thing but firstly how on earth do they know how good the intercoolers are since no “tuner” ever seems to test theirs in anything over 4th gear so they really have zero idea just what sort of maximum IATs their intercoolers allow and surely they can’t control IAT once on the rollers so just how much guesswork is involved ?
     
    I know this post is an “I’ve got the best tuning” post – which it is and I haveSmiley, but seriously it is amazing and a credit to someone (either the chassis dyno tuners or Porsche for building in so many safeguards that the engines cannot harm themselves) that chassis dyno guys can produce cars which appear to work !

    --


    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    GT:
    If stage 2 is the safest tuning stage, then stage 3 is by definition even safer! The addition of ICs reduce the intake temperature (which should be high up in the list for ways to increase power) and with a positive effect on reliability and engine "health". As a result you get more power, better response, better consumption and more reliability. Can don't agonise and buy them. The only question should be which ones! Re AFRs, indeed they are crucial to performance AND reliability. Most engine failures of tuned cars are due to too rich or usually too lean AFRs. The 997tt ecu has a vast list of safety parametres to correct those things by altering boost, ignition timing and afr but if ecu not tuned properly and those parametres are breached then the result will be a car running worse than stock..


    We are here to share information, not for you to repeatedly tempt me. Smiley Thank you and I do understand your enthusiasm for the intercooler. I would imagine by lowering overall operating temp, it would increase reliability AND give more power. Talk about having your cake and eat it too.

    Regarding AFR, I think the article specifically warns against running too lean, but on the rich side (not "too rich") is not only ok, but actually recommended for a boosted (turbo) engine?
    >>>>
    This is why it is imperative to run richer AFR on a boosted engine at full load. Doing so will reduce the likelihood of knock, and will also keep temperatures under control.
    >>>>

    Lastly,  I just realize I might just have diagnosed the cause of your problem with resonance in your Turbo's exhaust system.
    1. Didn't you have some resonanced problem with the Cargraphic, and now with the Titanium exhaust system?
    2. Is your ECU tune done by EVOMS?
    If both 1 and 2 are true, then it's possible the problem is not with the exhaust, but its interaction with the ECU tune (see my review earlier in this thread). I and a couple of other people did have some problem with noise with the EVOMS tune. In my case, it's a nasty resonance at idle and a loud, high frequency/ high strung sound overall. It's probably related to the alteration of AFR & timing.
    As to why only some people complain? I don't know. Maybe specific to the particular car, particular exhaust, and, particular picky person. Smiley


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Cann,

    Wanted to thank you again for answering so many of my questions. I'm revisiting this thread because this am I brought in my Turbo for an oil change & in one hour I'm picking her up w/ EVOMS EVT580/600R. Can't wait. It was an impulse buy in that I didn't go there today thinking I was getting any mods but I've been reading about ECU/mod comparison's for a couple of years. The fact that my dealer, who I purchased the car from, installed the exhaust/plenum now works closely w/ EVOMS & is doing the work in house is a major plus for me, think I understand all the warranty conversations but it's still some piece of mind imo.

    That it will probably get louder (w/ the Tubi) is actually a plus for me,  some additional loudness will be a win,win even at the expense of some possible additional drone I've found Cargraphic Loud is louder than the Tubi Sports Exhaust.

    I'll let you know how it goes in a day or 2 after I have some driving time!

    Smiley
    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Anyone have experience w EVOMS Boost Recirculation Valve's:

    http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/ViewProduct.asp?Now=4%2F27%2F2010+10%3A16%3A28+AM&ProductID={C25FF094-7594-4967-96C9-900002...

    They're part of all EVOMS's Stages right from Stage 1 on up:

    http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/marketplace.asp?curr={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}&depth=10&parentid={40D50AB4...

     


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Holy thread revival! Congrats; I think you'll be very happy; and hello Gregg, long time no see!

    If you stay with the big 4 of US tuners: EVOMS, GIAC, Protomotive, Swizer, I don't think you could go wrong. In fact EVOMS is either no. 1 or 2 in the US. That it's offered by your dealer makes it even more compelling.
    When I had it, outside of the noise problem, it works great. The noise at idle really could be an interaction with my specific car and exhaust, and that's why I don't talk about it much. EVOMS has a one month full refund policy, so I think you are very safe here.

    EVOMS tune has option to increase response of the electronic throttle control -- you may or may not like this (I didn't -- makes the car too "jumpy" for a daily driver.). If you don't, let them know so they could cool it down for you. Same thing with the increased baseline RPM. I don't know they do this anymore but that too could be tune down. Increased idle makes idle noise more prominent, and idle noise is bothersome for a daily drive.
    The BRV: There was a discussion on this a while back. It prevents diaphragm seizing -- don't think it affects power level per se but I could be wrong on this (anyone corrects me as needed). Diaphragm seizing might have been a problem with 996 Turbo, but so far not with 997 Turbo. J

    Just a word of caution about adding hardware: I think that a stage 2 tune has a great safety record, but when you add hardware like BRV, intercooler, etc.: while they are beneficial and improve over stock, the more you add the more the chance that something *might* go wrong or become loose, damaged, etc. (headaches and problems).
    I am quite happy with my humble stage 2 and don't plan to go any further. In fact, I think more power and torque makes the car more difficult to control when I am out playing with the "twisting" mountain roads around Los Angeles.

    Hope this helps and enjoy! Anyone who has test driven the new PDK Turbo will want to tune the ECU of the 997.1 Turbo. It's the only way the old car could compete, with respect to excitement and speed.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    I found the discussion on the diverter valve.

     >>>>>>>>
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/142660-benefits-giac-flashloader-system-2.html

     
    Originally Posted by cannga View Post

    1. Would you please elaborate on the "headache"? I've read that the issue has to do with boost leaks and diaphragm sticking. But what does this all mean? What will I see that will cause me to have "headache"? And is the damage, if any, from not using it reversible?

    GIAC: You are correct that the problem has to do with pressure leaks and a seizing diaphragm, but this was more of an issue on the 996TT. When I said "headache" I was not referring to a future engine problem, but rather that it can lead to driveability issues that may take a while to diagnose. Sometimes, the aftermarket diverters fail as well, but I would not worry too much about it for your car, as we have not seen any problems with the 997TT diverter valves yet.
     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    O

    M

    G

    !

    What people have to say about transforming the car is so dead on. I honestly wasn't expecting this kind of difference. I knew I'd feel the added power but didn't think it would be so dramatic, the car CHARGES now incredibly. It's insane, so much faster.

    Have to come back to you regarding sound, wasn't paying that much attention to sound at idle but when I did listen for a moment it is maybe slightly louder in Sport but not that noticeable at all. And when I deselect Sport the car sounds pretty much like it did before but can confirm that once I have time to have a better listen. 

    Couldn't be happier, it breathes new life into my 2 year old car, part of me wishes I had done it earlier but mostly I'm happy I waited, I can really appreciate the different beast now.  

    They installed the BRV too, I didn't ask my dealer about it further but there must be some kind of logic to it if EVOMS makes it part of all their packages... If not it's not too expensive, it wouldn't be the first thing I bought and didn't really need. Smiley

    Can't wait till tomorrow's drive!!!!!!!!!

    Yeah, you're right, long time, good to speak to you !!!!!!!!!!! Smiley

    Smiley


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    cannga:

    1. My DME is loaded onto a second, brand-new ECU box that I bought. In other words, I have 2 boxes now, one with the GIAC that's in my car, the other, with all original data and program, on window sill in front of my desk. Smiley

    2. Not only that, 2 US companies, GIAC and APR, now have tune programs that allow owner to switch back to stock timing tables, stock boost maps, etc., with a simple push of a button. GIAC uses an external unit (picture below as installed in my car); APR uses the Cruise Control stalk.
    I do find the back to stock mode feature quite useful when driving in heavy traffic, or during long cruise with my wife, when we need to "talk" Smiley, etc..

    But of course you're right about ECU tuning; I used to be skeptical but not anymore. Still getting used to the sight of cars next to mine simply vanish -- wish I had done it sooner.
    Everyday I am finding it harder and harder to go back to stock program as the car in stock mode feels so lazy and so slow in comparison.

    Stupid question: what happens, if your engine breaks down? Do you know how much a new engine costs? I hope so.

    If you think that Porsche can't track down the ECU tuning, you're wrong. Relevant data like maximum boost pressure, fuel distribution values and rpm figures are saved in "certain locations" where this data can't be manipulated. So if you ever have an engine failure and need serious repairs, you're in big trouble.

    "Good" tuners always offer an "alternative" warranty for their tuning work. Meaning: if Porsche isn't paying, THEY pay (or better said their warranty insurance).

    We have DOZENS of engine failure cases where Porsche refused warranty repairs because of unauthorized modifications. So don't think that this is something you should take lightly.

    Don't know the current price tag of a 997 Turbo engine but last time I checked, it was somewhere over 50000 USD.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    RC agreed with all that you say but.. imo its worth it! If it wasn't for the bullet proof engineering of the 997.1tt there are plenty of other options of cars that are almost as good and more fun than stock tt. The fact that these cars are so overengineered and you can "safely" increase power to insane levels (within reason) is what makes the tt so attractive for some people here. But on the other hand, if sth happens people should NOT expect factory warranties.. But if u go to a reputable tuner, stage 2 or even 3 modifications should be pretty reliable these days after so much experience amassed in the tuner community with these engines. Just avoid cheapo tunes with shortcuts..

    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    I hesitated to do the ECU the first couple of years but for the guys like myself who bought very early Cabs or especially the guys who bought the early coupes, it becomes less & less of a consideration as the remainder of the warranty clicks away.      

    My dealer made me make 2 promises when he handed me back the keys yesterday; 1) To be cool especially in 1st & 2nd gear, before the tires warmed up, to learn the car all over again & 2) To call him when I got home to tell him how much I liked it. 

    When I called back I told him top Execs at Porsche should go to jail for not selling the car with a similar tune. Smiley It's literally (kidding) a crime that they have deprived so many people of what the car feels like now.

    But even with the owner of my dealer for the last 3 911's promising me that as long as I don't break the engine and have it towed from a racetrack he'll back any work that needs to be done I know it's a risky endeavor. But so is spending much more money on a tuners "alternative warranty" in the likelihood that no major issues arise.. Hey, we spend $50k every time we buy one of these cars with deprecation & that's not a small % for a potential problem like in the case of a blown motor, it's basically a certainty but we do it anyway. Many times we risk much more than the cost of a new engine in the stock market with nothing to show for it ... Or we take risks for the sake of adrenaline everyday even risking our own well being so in terms of the potential for a costly repair, risk/cost is all relative..............................Not saying you haven't lived life till you've your Turbo tuned,,,,,,,,well maybe I am.Smiley   

    Right now I'm totally psyched, the reward is much greater than I had imagined..  


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    RC:
    cannga:

    1. My DME is loaded onto a second, brand-new ECU box that I bought. In other words, I have 2 boxes now, one with the GIAC that's in my car, the other, with all original data and program, on window sill in front of my desk. Smiley

    2. Not only that, 2 US companies, GIAC and APR, now have tune programs that allow owner to switch back to stock timing tables, stock boost maps, etc., with a simple push of a button. GIAC uses an external unit (picture below as installed in my car); APR uses the Cruise Control stalk.
    I do find the back to stock mode feature quite useful when driving in heavy traffic, or during long cruise with my wife, when we need to "talk" Smiley, etc..

    But of course you're right about ECU tuning; I used to be skeptical but not anymore. Still getting used to the sight of cars next to mine simply vanish -- wish I had done it sooner.
    Everyday I am finding it harder and harder to go back to stock program as the car in stock mode feels so lazy and so slow in comparison.

    1. Stupid question: what happens, if your engine breaks down? Do you know how much a new engine costs? I hope so.

    2. If you think that Porsche can't track down the ECU tuning, you're wrong. Relevant data like maximum boost pressure, fuel distribution values and rpm figures are saved in "certain locations" where this data can't be manipulated. So if you ever have an engine failure and need serious repairs, you're in big trouble.

    3. "Good" tuners always offer an "alternative" warranty for their tuning work. Meaning: if Porsche isn't paying, THEY pay (or better said their warranty insurance).

    We have DOZENS of engine failure cases where Porsche refused warranty repairs because of unauthorized modifications. So don't think that this is something you should take lightly.

    Don't know the current price tag of a 997 Turbo engine but last time I checked, it was somewhere over 50000 USD

     


    Good points and of course, good questions.

    1. What happens if I got struck by lightning walking in the rain? What happens if I got hit by a car crossing the street as a tourist in London? Once the risk versus benefit probability has been determined, should I worry about possibilities, and stop "living"?
    Against the "dozens of engine failure" report, I have read numerous actual users' reports, that for the 997 Turbo, there has not been one single failure directly related to a simple ECU tune with no hardware change (stage 2). Show me such a failure and I will show you an abusive driver who would have destroyed the car no matter what.

    2. Good points. Except... where did I "think that Porsche can't track my tuning" in this post?   
    I had second DME for reasons that are much more important. If there is any question or issue, I would like to have an untouched and original DME to use as a reference. Why? So someone can't claim "you just didn't remember it right," etc. This is simply the compulsive, difficult, and finicky side of me operating.

    3. Warranty? a. Expiring in 1 year, and then what? b. Does not necessarily come free c. Definitely not needed for a stage 2. (Prove me wrong with a real report of a real case -- failure from a simple ECU tune without any other hardware change except exhaust.)

    Bottom line: The merit of a mod is answered by a simple question. Would you do it again? Judging by available users reports, the answer is a resounding 99.9% yes. In addition, any perceptive driver who has driven either a modded car or the new PDK Turbo will likely find that the un-modded 997.1 Turbo, while very good, has no chance whatsoever *in comparison*. It feels as slow and ponderous as a slug in comparison. Slow spool up, bad lag, less powerful, and surely not nearly as exciting. Anyone not afraid of getting run over by a car in London surely would think this is another risk worth taking. Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    cannga:

    Against the "dozens of engine failure" report, I have read numerous actual users' reports, that for the 997 Turbo, there has not been one single failure directly related to a simple ECU tune with no hardware change (stage 2). Show me such a failure and I will show you an abusive driver who would have destroyed the car no matter what.

    Can, There have been many failures in Europe with just ECU tunes, the bad ones work the VTGs too hard and/or disable the knock sensing. There is one in my local dealer at the moment whose VTGs got too hot and metled throwing bits of metal into the intake, the engine is not rebuildable, Porsche have rejected the claim, the guy is on his own.

    I think there is an aspect particularly in heavily speed limited countries which is saving a lot of these bad tunes and that is the VTGs are not getting too hot and not causing the problems. Put them on an Autobahn for an hours fun and it could be a different story (I had such a tune, it was fast and ticked all the boxes but Mr RS said it would melt if I pushed it on the 'bahn"
     

    Took me a while to tune my brand new engine, about 6 months Smiley


    --


     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    On engines, Porsche doesn't offer a warranty only but also some sort of goodwill policy which is usually available up 3-5 years after the car has been bought new.

    There are cases where Porsche paid 50-80% of an engine repair cost even 1-2 years after the warranty expired.

    You can also get an extended warranty when the regular warranty expires. Tuning your car makes it impossible to get this warranty because the dealer needs to check your car and hand over a DME printout/etc. to Porsche.

    I didn't want to sound like a smartass but people need to know the possible consequences.

    Btw: do you guys have life insurance? Health insurance? Insurance against fire/water/etc. damages? Well...why? How likely is it that you need them?  I hope you get my point. 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    RC:

    On engines, Porsche doesn't offer a warranty only but also some sort of goodwill policy which is usually available up 3-5 years after the car has been bought new.

    There are cases where Porsche paid 50-80% of an engine repair cost even 1-2 years after the warranty expired.

    You can also get an extended warranty when the regular warranty expires. Tuning your car makes it impossible to get this warranty because the dealer needs to check your car and hand over a DME printout/etc. to Porsche.

    I didn't want to sound like a smartass but people need to know the possible consequences.

    Btw: do you guys have life insurance? Health insurance? Insurance against fire/water/etc. damages? Well...why? How likely is it that you need them?  I hope you get my point. 

     

     

    You buy life insurance to protect your family, not really in the same ballpark as needing a replaceable $50k engine... But honestly if the only max downside or max reimbursement for my home in case of fire/water/flood, etc damages was $50k, I wouldn't buy the property insurance every year, it wouldn't be worth it.

    But good point people put themselves purposely in flood, hurricane, earthquake areas with the potential for loss of 100's of thousands/millions of dollars & personal belongings even WITH insurance. They risk living in certain places to have a nicer home, or live in a better area, they take a higher risk living in certain places with the chance at losing everything without ever being able to replace it no matter what the cost..Considering that,  the small potential risk for paying for engine replacement is a very small price to pay .

    You can have a full warranty, have a bad downshift, hit into a hard rev limiter too long & Porsche can deny engine replacement/repair just because you shifted wrong. Everything is a risk. You can track the car, there goes your warranty too. You can get into an accident & lose money, doesn't mean you shouldn't drive & enjoy your car.

    These cars suck up money no matter what insurance or warranty you have, they are money pits, some people dump $50k on deprecation no matter what they do, some dump that on mods. People have to make personal decisions about what they're willing to risk vs reward, personally as a brand new car I didn't feel like throwing out my warranty because the car was new, if something bad were to happen it's likely it would happen early & because I wasn't used to the cars power. But now that my car is into the later half of it's warranty & I've gotten very used to the cars power/character the reward is WELL WORTH the risk......

    Funny thing RC is that I thought exactly like you before seeing what the tune did for my Turbo. Its the reason I hadn't done it before.  Today on the drive into work, it felt like I was driving a brand new, much quicker, more responsive car, I mean MUCH QUICKER for not that much money at all and there's only a very small chance I'm actually going to pay for an engine replacement. Think of it as the $50k in new car depreciation without having to pay the depreciation. You can even look at it as less costly vs buying a new car where you're basically assured the $50k loss....... Life is full of risks, while I'm at a time in my life where I can afford it if it happened, I want to enjoy it to the fullest & not obsess on the possible negative's of what could go wrong,,,it's not like I'm being irresponsible w/ my health or family, it's just money, you can always make more.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Guys, remember we are not talking about the consumer 996/997 engine here, the Mezger turbo can be rebuilt, the chances of needing a complete $50K replacement are miniscule, even a rod through the side may only mean 1 new cylinder, 1 rod and piston etc.....

    The melted VTG scenario is a little more catastrophic but there will still be plenty of salvagable shiny bits and all can be rebuilt with new and sometimes uprated (3.9 litre Carrillo rods etc) parts for a lot less than the $50K and of course it gives one the ideal excuse for some serious extra power - its a win win situation

     

    BTW I removed the pic of my car,  I guessed it may have been annoying users having to keep loading it up or scrolling past it, however pretty it may be Smiley


    --

     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    TB993tt:

    Can, There have been many failures in Europe with just ECU tunes, the bad ones work the VTGs too hard and/or disable the knock sensing.


    Smiley SmileySmileySmiley

    What, a *European* tuner did that? I don't know of any US tuner who would think of anything like that!
    Just teasing.
    Kidding aside, I can't add enough qualifiers to my statement to take care of all the mediocrities and idiocies abound in this world, Toby.

    Let me repeat the question: Does anyone on this forum knows, with concrete evidence, that a stage 2 997 Turbo, that is not tuned by nitwit, has damaged its engine?

    (PS Your pic is now too small and is hurting my eyes :-). No one has complained about mine yet -- it's 300 pixel wide.)


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
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