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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    WoP:

    Hi - my first post on the forum - been reading here for a while. Great place!

    Wanted to put in my view on Tesla vs the others (my garage includes McLaren 650S, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Audi e-tron and some lesser cars).

    I think the Model 3 is a great car loads of fun to drive even in the twisties. And it has a huge gadget appeal which is cool. I see the much touted autopilot also as exactly that - a gadget. Here in busy German traffic, real world benefits aren't huge (yet?). Biggest problem Tesla have (at least here in the DACH region) is the experience interacting with them. They make it as hard as possible to interact with them: Calling a service center - nope - all numbers disconnected. Email them about a problem - auto-reply that you should use the app to make an appointment. Use the app - next appointment in October. You can still call their central hotline, but after an hour with no reply, you give up. As long as they don't fix the user experience after you bought a car, they won't compete with other brands in the luxury segment.

    Finally someone who tells it like it is: Gadget. Smiley This is the same appeal Teslas have to me, I would definitely own one if I had many more cars, as a gadget, it is fantastic, something completely new. Smiley

    Welcome, Wolfgang and thanks for joining. Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    950 miles in two days. Taking an electric road trip in a Tesla

    https://apple.news/A5zJAP1h0Sq61tyqKHIod8A

    Sums up pretty well where long trips and autopilot tech is today.

    Yes Teslas are gadgets, but they also provide an amazing level of practicality that did not exist before. I had to drive for 3.5 hours yesterday to go to the city, last week I took a driver but this time I took the X. At the end of a long day, I came back home much less tired and relaxed than with any other vehicle. If anything, that’s worth a lot of money to me. Who cares that the interior is not the best of the best out there today, it still beats the German mid level of trims and is more than enough to be in the luxury segment. As a package, the X is the best daily driver I have ever owned and my only regret is not to have bought one before this year. Plus the Tesla are or will be cheaper than their German counterpart, so you get what you pay for.

    Indeed, the Model 3 is just too good and cannibalizes sales of the Model S. I think Tesla answer is the right one for now: just keep pushing the metal out of the door, margins will improve and in the meantime just keep bringing the revenue and keep the cash flow positive (it was way positive by the way in case you missed it, well above expectations). Bond holders will love it but shareholders will have to take some pain, but that’s the right thing to do until sales increase in China and the Model Y comes out.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Autopilot is a real lifesaver...Tesla Model 3 driver hits ELEVEN construction barrels and blames Autopilot. https://insideevs.com/news/361544/video-tesla-model-3-hits-11-cones-blames-autopilot/. Imagine the carnage a non-Autopilot equipped car would do.  Oh, wait!  The other cars didn’t hit the barrels.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Autopilot is not a level 3 or 4 system, what are you expecting? You have to pay attention... Blame the driver, not the system.

    Tesla says number one reason owners visit service is to learn how to use Autopilot

    https://apple.news/AK9wOryAvSLqHiBnQVb5xjA

    I have seen the system once tell me it detected construction cones on the side of the road and to be careful. That’s still years ahead of anyone else Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    'Not a lot to like' — analysts pan Tesla as the shares are slammed on poor results’

    https://apple.news/AaaKbwAn5TReVybH3OEQCZQ

    Free cash flow +$600mio $5bio+ in cash despite a drop in costumers deposit to $450mio.

    Margins 18.9% vs 20.5 excepted. But Model 3 margins have improved by 2.5%.

    The problem is the drop in Model S sales. An interior or exterior refresh will not help, even if they made the interior as nice as the ETron (which they cannot unless they use leather and start killing the minimalist theme and that would be a mistake). The Model 3 is just too much of a bargain and too well designed/built vs the S. Even a bigger battery won’t help, Model 3 already has a decent range. And since all cars are already loaded with options, not much distinction there. They need to keep lowering the price of the S and improve margins. They are not trying to compete heads to head with the equivalent of a Mercedes class S but to do that they need to make sure the Model S is priced competitively vs the top of that segment.

    I have said it before, Tesla made a mistake not doing the Model Y before the Model 3. It will not push Tesla out of business but it pushed away the time where they will be able to sustain decent profits. Lower stock, steady bonds...

    Tesla EV market share will drop, that’s a given... the real question is how much the EV market will grow as a % of the overall market. And despite the nay sayers here, just look how many EVs owners or potential owners we have here in this motor head oriented crowd Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Yes, it's great news that Tesla has about 5 billion in the bank, at the current burn rate, it should last perhaps 3 years.

    They got rid of one money problem, but the primary problem still remains, they couldn't figure out how to make money selling cars in a virtual monopoly. Going forward, that monopoly is gone, it will be even harder for them to make money selling cars. 

    Demand for EV car was artificially created by government policies. And even with so much help, the growth of the segment is still very slow. Imagine a world with no government help, the organic growth will be even lower.

    As I said before, the main problem with EV is that there is no support structure in place yet. The charge rate is still very slow as compared to people going to gas station to fill up. And there is not even close to enough charging stations like gas stations yet.

    The argument that a EV car can be charged at home overnight is still flawed. Only a portion of the potential customers can do that. Consumers are accustomed to go to gas stations when they need a fill up, it's a quick 5 mins and they have a full tank. The tipping point will be when there are just as many charging stations as gas stations AND a 5 min charge to go from empty to full. That's the point when consumers will buy more EV than normal cars. 

    A secondary way for EV to succeed is wait for the current generation of kids to grow up and start buying cars. Unlike the majority of the market, these young kids are not ingrained to go to gas stations for fill ups when driving. They got a clean slate so to speak to accept new things. They will be more receptive to finding a charging station and wait 45 minutes for a charge up. 

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Model 3 is and will be very competitive against other manufacturers. Unfortunately for Tesla, the margin on the car is small and they would need to sell significant number to make up for other deficient areas.

    That said, EV's are a curiosity nothing more. They sell because of government programs incentives which now are being phased out. Until some of the operating problems( as pointed out by Nick and others) are resolved, the interest in the car will remain tepid and most car purchasers will remain on the sidelines. 


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    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    The Model 3 is and will be very competitive against other manufacturers. Unfortunately for Tesla, the margin on the car is small and they would need to sell significant number to make up for other deficient areas.

    That said, EV's are a curiosity nothing more. They sell because of government programs incentives which now are being phased out. Until some of the operating problems( as pointed out by Nick and others) are resolved, the interest in the car will remain tepid and most car purchasers will remain on the sidelines. 

    One has previously written about the work of Geoffery Moore, the author of Crossing the Chasm, on the difficulties of moving from initial early adopters of technology to the mass market audiences.  Tesla is at that crossroads and it needed a very flat cost structure with limited capex to survive the shift in market targets.  Unfortunately, Musk has taken an approach that does neither.  

    Musk has built his organization including manufacturing in one of the most costly centers in the United States.  While automation may contain costs, it seldom delivers on that nebulous promise when assembling a complex product that evolves across time.  Furthermore, Tesla, as a company, has lacked the discipline in developing a cohesive product road map.  As some have previously stated, the move toward the mass market should have focused on hot selling crossovers, not sedans.  That limits market size as fixed costs dramatically increases, and this is well before government subsidies ramp down.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Governments subsidies are pretty much gone for Tesla already... Unless they bring them back angry

    It will be a hard road, but Tesla still has a few aces in its sleeves. First their margins are improving a lot and can keep improving. They still have a lot to learn to build cars efficiently, just imagine where they could be once they reach the maturity of some of their competition. Second they are not afraid to change their MSRP as needed any time they see fit, effectively giving a huge lever on profit and volume. Right now they moved it towards volume at the expense of the share price. Amazon did the same before. For example, as I wrote earlier, they need to drop the price of the S, slowly but surely, and they can do it.

    All they need to do is survive until the Y comes out and China production ramps up, it looks like they have the cash to do so. And again, competition is good because it will make the EV market grow. Teslas are not the best at everything, but they are the most efficient and advanced on the market today and they are the best as a package imho. And they are perceived as a very cool brand, they have the tools to fight and anyway even what has been announced by others is not very compelling.

    And of course the primary target are people who have a way to charge it every day at home, being in an individual house, a condo or a shared parking. That is still a huge market today and it will grow bigger as new developments will have chargers. As much as people focus on supercharging times, I think in the end it is an irrelevant aspect except for a few days in a year. I still do not see a scenario where I would ever need to use one, nor do I plan to.

    Every luxury 7-seater SUV on the market right now:

    https://apple.news/AaIx6MHWRQN-Cn921ou5fzw 

    Emphasis on SUV smiley, looks who sits at the top of the segment in terms of price angry​​​​​​ along the X7 and the GLS​

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Model Y and Gigafactory 3 heralds a faster, more profitable Tesla

    https://apple.news/ACfmmahftQN-XnmnHBxPE3g


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Governments subsidies are pretty much gone for Tesla already... Unless they bring them back angry

    It will be a hard road, but Tesla still has a few aces in its sleeves. First their margins are improving a lot and can keep improving. They still have a lot to learn to build cars efficiently, just imagine where they could be once they reach the maturity of some of their competition. Second they are not afraid to change their MSRP as needed any time they see fit, effectively giving a huge lever on profit and volume. Right now they moved it towards volume at the expense of the share price. Amazon did the same before. For example, as I wrote earlier, they need to drop the price of the S, slowly but surely, and they can do it.

    All they need to do is survive until the Y comes out and China production ramps up, it looks like they have the cash to do so. And again, competition is good because it will make the EV market grow. Teslas are not the best at everything, but they are the most efficient and advanced on the market today and they are the best as a package imho. And they are perceived as a very cool brand, they have the tools to fight and anyway even what has been announced by others is not very compelling.

    When will Model Y production begin?
    Model Y production is expected to begin in late 2020 for North America, and in early 2021 for Europe and China. Standard Range production is expected to begin in early 2021 for North America, and in early 2022 for Europe and China.

    Link:  https://www.tesla.com/support/model-y-ordering-faq

    ...is the Model Y going to save Tesla from the competition? Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What competition?

    7 seater crossover for $45k and 300 miles of EPA range, 0-60mph in 4.5s (long range model) with the best in car tech? smileyangry


    Re: Tesla Roadster

      ↵

    SciFrog:

    What competition?

    7 seater crossover for $45k and 300 miles of EPA range, 0-60mph in 4.5s (long range model) with the best in car tech? smileyangry

    I'll stop by my local Tesla dealer to pick one up today... Smiley 27


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You can if you only want 5 seats today, and save $5k in the process smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I want the seven seater off-roader you wrote about. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You used future tense “will” and refer to a future not yet released product yet you want to buy one today?

    There is no real announced competition for the “future” vehicle. Maybe there will by the time it comes out for real. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Promoting something that doesn't exist is your purview, not mine.  My use of the future tense "will" implied stopping by the local Tesla showroom later today, but parse away.  In the meantime, following is a cogent analysis on the state of ai.

    Save The Artificial Intelligence Party For When It Actually Becomes Intelligent

    Despite its public image, artificial intelligence software cannot yet match the versatile skills of even the most primitive mammals in the real world.

    Andrew Cuff

    Former secretary of state Henry Kissinger, former Google CEO Eric Schmidt, and Cornell University professor Daniel Huttenlocher worked together for three years to write a single article for the August 2019 issue of The Atlantic. In it, they set out to solve the “riddles” of artificial intelligence, which they call an “unstoppable revolution,” but they only managed to mimic other AI sign-twirlers.

    Their conclusions read like an encyclopedia entry for “hyperbole”: “The challenge of absorbing this new technology into the values and practices of the existing culture has no precedent. The most comparable event was the transition from the medieval to the modern period. … When the unity of the Christian Church was broken, the question of what unifying concept could replace it arose.”

    AI software is more than technology, the authors contend. Its advent will change the meaning of truth as we know it: “The Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant ascribed truth to the impact of the structure of the human mind on observed reality. AI’s truth is more contingent and ambiguous. … How should we respond to the inevitable evolution it will impose on our understanding of truth and reality?”

    AI Exaggerations Are Everywhere

    Even readers with no technological background or grasp of AI capabilities will surely adjust such claims for inflation. Come on — one moment we’re talking about facial recognition and sorting functions, and the next we’ve got a second Protestant Reformation warping the fabric of reality?

    But if you’re paying skeptical attention, you can find the same AI exaggerations everywhere. Kissinger and the rest of the team even admit this in their Atlantic article, noting “public projections of AI have the attributes of science fiction.”

    Yet by claiming, as they do, that AI will yield “entirely new ways of thinking” and cause an “inevitable evolution … of our understanding of truth and reality,” the authors fall prey to the very sci-fi anthropomorphism they criticize. Only beyond merely personifying AI, they practically deify it.

    Some fair-minded observers have called AI a second industrial revolution: Software now performs complex calculations in numerous industries, and some human-like behaviors can occur at great speed. But before we do Silicon Valley the favor of writing AI’s hagiography, we should be honest about its defects — and theirs.

    Show Us the Proof

    Here are the facts: Scientists and developers have put forth absolutely no proof that AI technology will ever be successful on a macro scale in noncontrolled environments. Despite its public image, software cannot yet match the versatile skills of even the most primitive mammals in the real world. For all the fictional portrayals of AI software as some autonomous “intelligent” entity, no such entity yet exists.

    Oft-cited examples of thinking machines are laughably simplistic: IBM’s Watson can look up answers to “Jeopardy!” questions. Uber’s “self-driving” cars require two human safety specialists at the controls. Honda’s ASIMO humanoid robot can (almost, sort of) waddle around like a toddler. The future is now!

    Those whose scientific understanding comes from scrolling through “tech news” believe this unironically. That’s because, while the actual AI explosion is perpetually 10 years away, the AI marketing explosion has already been detonated.

    Tech companies constantly create AI illusions for expo demonstrations and puff-piece media. Kissinger and the team unwittingly open with one such illusion: the AlphaZero chess engine, the vaunted exposition of which and subsequent AI stardom was essentially a hoax. Google techs provided AlphaZero a massively more powerful processor than its computer opponent, and moves were limited to one minute. It was a con very similar to Deep Blue, whose handlers reprogrammed the chess engine’s “learning” software after every game in the iconic 1996 series with grandmaster Garry Kasparov.

    Robots that make the news, such as the acrobatic “parkour bot” shown off by Boston Dynamics, are always tested in highly controlled environments with scores of human operators. Even Sophia, the android who grabbed worldwide attention for its scripted conversation at Saudi Arabia’s Future Investment Initiative, has social media accounts run by human AI impostors.

    That’s how the heralds and press agents of AI operate. It’s all about the show.

    Cutting Through the Propaganda and Publicity Stunts

    Fittingly, celebrity limelight-seekers buzz around the AI fad, swelling its influence with increasingly grandiose predictions. Steve Wozniak predicts we’ll soon become the “pets” of benevolent robots. Elon Musk says AI is more dangerous than nukes (but has invested billions in “merging” it with human brains). Richard Dawkins, for one, welcomes our new robot overlords. Even Vladimir Putin jumped on the bandwagon, claiming that whoever leads in AI “will become the ruler of the world.”

    We might be tempted to view AI’s advertisement avalanche as harmless. After all, publicity and marketing are innocuous forms of free expression and necessary aspects of the modern economy, right? Wrong, Marshall McLuhan would certainly remind us: Mass manipulation by the “ad men” camouflages brainwashing, dehumanization, and exploitation. The goal of AI propaganda is to generate public support for the otherwise unconscionable.

    One example is “fauxtomation”: the growing problem of tech companies routing inane tasks through low-income human employees, often in offshore sweatshop-like call centers, while pretending their AI is just that good. It’s another consumerist ploy we’d be fools to fall for. While social media magnates flaunt their advanced “quality control” algorithms in public, they privately hire thousands of content moderators in Manila to sift through hours of illegal porn and violence, while relying on a first-world staff of eager leftists such as Jen Gennai to manually censor and stage-manage the global discourse.

    Sorry, Something Went Wrong

    That’s not all. Since AI’s economic and social dominance is a fait accompli in the minds of its prophets, many long-game planners have begun to reallocate resources away from human involvement. Why develop new auto safety features if self-driving cars will soon eliminate accidents? Why teach foreign languages in schools if translation software will soon make human polyglots obsolete?

    Why study or innovate anything at all if AI will soon handle our thinking for us? That kind of attitude will leave our civilization at the mercy of Microsoft Help. Alexa’s “sorry, something went wrong” could be the motto of our future.

    Kissinger and other grave voices warning about AI are right that we’re in big trouble, but it’s not because of some “singularity” or robot uprising. Like our progressive optimism and myopic materialism, our shortsighted futurism has lost all sense of proportion. We’re tearing down the human infrastructure of today to make way for a technocratic tomorrow — and we’ll find ourselves left with the worst of both worlds.

    Andrew Cuff is a scholar and writer living in the DC area with his wife, Mary, and daughter, Sophia. His work has appeared in such outlets as First Things and The Chronicle of Higher Education.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What is new there? Eric Schmidt has been giving conferences with this exact message for years now, I was in person at one not that long ago. Great smart guy but not a visionary. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    What is new there? Eric Schmidt has been giving conferences with this exact message for years now, I was in person at one not that long ago. Great smart guy but not a visionary. 

    Others here may not be a precociously bright as you and may find that article informative.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    What competition?

    When the Tesla Model Y is on the road in 2021, there will be a great deal more competition in the EV sector... Smiley

    ...Audi, Honda and VW, inter alia, will take market share with a range of EV models available in 2020-21... Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    90% of the picture will not even dream of a 0-100 in less than 6s....angry

    Tesla is on the sport side where the others will be on the real people mover side...

    the big competitor for Tesla at the moment will only be Porsche as weird as it sounds. Porsche will be king in the EV segment for the moment.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    the-missile:

    90% of the picture will not even dream of a 0-100 in less than 6s....angry

    Tesla is on the sport side where the others will be on the real people mover side...

    the big competitor for Tesla at the moment will only be Porsche as weird as it sounds. Porsche will be king in the EV segment for the moment.

     

    Don't let Scifrog read that last sentence, he will surely disagrees Smiley


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    What competition?

    7 seater crossover for $45k and 300 miles of EPA range, 0-60mph in 4.5s (long range model) with the best in car tech? smileyangry

     

    Hmm, Model 3 was $45k too, anyone managed to buy one at that price yet?

    And again, Tesla doesn't have the best car tech. Their EV system will be still pretty much the same in the Model Y as in the initial Model S, which was Gen 1.5 at best when everyone is already rolling out Gen 2 and Gen 2.5 or Gen 3 will be out for those refreshes when and if the Model Y hit showroom by 2025.

    Software updates can never replace hardware updates to take advantage of hardware improvements, and Tesla doesn't do hardware updates since they don't refresh their cars. You Model X looks exactly like a 7 year old Model S that ate too many Big Macs.

    But Tesla do have THE BEST childish features I will give you that, fart mode, and build in video game, etc.

    And also to every one wants 4.5sec 0-60, just like no one really needs sub 3 second 0-60, or else Rolls Royce would have made their Phantom/Ghost that quick too.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    If I were to read this post out of context I would venture you have no idea how Tesla handles hardware changes and models. But since you are much smarter than that... Unless new suspension, new battery and new motors are no new hardware changes  They made model years obsolete. When you have new hardware developed, you just release it... anytime... Oh and I guess a new designed front doesn’t count either angry or new MCU and Autopilot hardware...

    You can buy a Model 3 for less than $38k today and for $36k ish « off the menu » ie by calling them...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    If I were to read this post out of context I would venture you have no idea how Tesla handles hardware changes and models. But since you are much smarter than that... Unless new suspension, new battery and new motors are no new hardware changes  They made model years obsolete. When you have new hardware developed, you just release it... anytime... Oh and I guess a new designed front doesn’t count either angry or new MCU and Autopilot hardware...

    You can buy a Model 3 for less than $38k today and for $36k ish « off the menu » ie by calling them...

     

    Spin it however way you want to with Elon-ese, but since the release of the Model S, it is still basically the same car.

    There was a battery chemistry change a few years ago, but that's invisible from the outside.

    The electric motor change for the front motor is nice, More efficient and saves them a lot of money by using basically the same motor across the model ranges. 

    The suspension is not 'new', it's most the software, to make the 'smart' air suspension into a 'adaptive' air suspension.

    Face it, Tesla simply do't have the money to do a wholesale redesign like everyone else, they can only afford little slipstream updates here and there. The only other car manufacturer that did that before was Aston, where they are stuck with basically the same Vantage for I think 15 years, same material constraint, no money. At least Aston updated the interior during that time.

    The downside to that is one is stuck with the same old cheap interior that's already 8 years old. At least the exterior of the Model S aged quite nicely, it's actually looking nicer now than 8 years ago. 

    Tesla is screwing their own customers by just slipstreaming little updates here and there, one has no idea whether one gets the lastest version when they buy the car. You could be buying the car right in front of mine on the line and you are stuck with the old spec while I paid exactly the same money but getting the new hardware and you won't even know until long after.

    McLaren sort of do the same thing to screw clients, but at least McLaren pre-announce the change and people already know their M.O. by now. 

    Don't you think Elon would love to have a brand new Model S/X refresh to stay with incoming competition? He can't. Tesla is cutting Cap-ex and there is no money to do a proper refresh. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Others have to do full redesign because they cannot drop the price. Tesla can wait for a full redesign and keep giving it great incremental upgrades in the meantime.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Others have to do full redesign because they cannot drop the price. Tesla can wait for a full redesign and keep giving it great incremental upgrades in the meantime.

    SmileySmileySmiley More Elon-ese.

    Tesla is the only one that's can't afford full design. They reduce the price to spur demand. Also to hit Elon's artificial sales target number to prop up stock prices.

    Others don't need to reduce prices as people are lining up to buy in the first place, why reduce profit when things are selling? 

    Every other car maker have normal cars to subsidize the EV segment, if they really want to, they can go nuclear and wipe Tesla off the map by undercutting Tesla pricing by a big chunk and sell them at a loss. Most boards are sane enough not to do that. They don't need to, their own products are mostly superior anyways. 

    And also, people do get staled with the same interior and exterior, hence regular redesign of cars. 

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Others have to do full redesign because they cannot drop the price. Tesla can wait for a full redesign and keep giving it great incremental upgrades in the meantime.

    SmileySmileySmiley More Elon-ese.

    You mean Elon-onsense. Smiley

    Tesla can be ahead in EV and "self-driving" tech/software as much as they want but in the end, the competition will be so tough, they will be in serious poo-poo. I said it before, a car manufacturer like VW Group is a giant and at some point, their investment in EV tech and software will pay off sooner or later.

    I mean seriously? Put the new Audi Q8 next to a Tesla X and tell me that the Tesla X looks better or that the quality (interior, whatever) is on the same level. Now imagine the Audi Q8 as an EV, with similar performance as the Tesla X and at a similar price. Which one would people buy? The Tesla? I highly doubt it. I never heard anyone saying that Tesla makes beautiful cars.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Model S looks ok for a sedan though starting to look a bit dated by now, but the other models are very unappealing to put it very very nicely, emasculated would be one way to describe them.

    The big manufacturers have not only the advantage of deeper pockets and R&D as well as development and production infrastructure as well, but they also have ICE products that are profitable to go along with EV to sustain their EV business development until EV's become more mainstream and profitable. Tesla does not and it's in a very delicate position, they have nothing to fall back on and have little resources, a little pressure and they can fold.


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Others have to do full redesign because they cannot drop the price. Tesla can wait for a full redesign and keep giving it great incremental upgrades in the meantime.

    SmileySmileySmiley More Elon-ese.

    You mean Elon-onsense. Smiley

    Tesla can be ahead in EV and "self-driving" tech/software as much as they want but in the end, the competition will be so tough, they will be in serious poo-poo. I said it before, a car manufacturer like VW Group is a giant and at some point, their investment in EV tech and software will pay off sooner or later.

    I mean seriously? Put the new Audi Q8 next to a Tesla X and tell me that the Tesla X looks better or that the quality (interior, whatever) is on the same level. Now imagine the Audi Q8 as an EV, with similar performance as the Tesla X and at a similar price. Which one would people buy? The Tesla? I highly doubt it. I never heard anyone saying that Tesla makes beautiful cars.

    Vapor ware. I might be one to buy a 7 seater SUV EV that has enough range to get me to work in the winter, has good self driving features with a top of the notch interior and decent performance and good handling for around $90k to $120k. Where is itSmiley Actually not even a 5 seater SUV that fits these criteria exists even.

    Words are cheap, money talks, you keep forgetting VW EV have to protect the juicy sales of their other models, especially Porsche.


     
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