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    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Porsche is definitely not the number one performer out of the show room as it used to be, but they are allot more reliable and forgiving in terms of daily use. I was on two waiting lists for the 997TT when I purchase my C2Scab. Even-though the C2Scab cannot compare to the TT in terms of performance, after driving this car for a couple of months I can't seem to make the swap to the TT. The C2Scab gives me everything I have been looking for in a sports car and more. This experience has taught me that buying a street/sports car is more than just performance (for me). It's about the feeling you get when you're driving, the connection you feel with the car, it's reliability, comfort, and thought out (evolved) design!!!



    If I lived in Florida I would also prefer a 997s Cab over a 997TT. On speed restricted roads the TT cannot demonstrate its advantages of the 997s - just my personal opinion.

    As an alternative I would consider the GT3; provides lots of fun even at lower speeds.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Porsche is definitely not the number one performer out of the show room as it used to be, but they are allot more reliable and forgiving in terms of daily use. I was on two waiting lists for the 997TT when I purchase my C2Scab. Even-though the C2Scab cannot compare to the TT in terms of performance, after driving this car for a couple of months I can't seem to make the swap to the TT. The C2Scab gives me everything I have been looking for in a sports car and more. This experience has taught me that buying a street/sports car is more than just performance (for me). It's about the feeling you get when you're driving, the connection you feel with the car, it's reliability, comfort, and thought out (evolved) design!!!



    Well said. Ferrari lost the edge they had over other sports cars as well. Their just so much competition these days but Porsche and Ferrari still offer that something extra that's almost intangible. It's just so hard to replicate soul in a sports car. And both Ferrari and Porsche are two of the best out there at doing that.
    I love the performance of my new Z and over all it's a pretty darn good car in just about every way. But it doesn't give me that special feeling that driving my Ferrari did. The sound, the smell, the feel of the connally leather. It all adds to it. But I love just about all sports cars and I can appreciate great ones even if they aren't my favorites.
    Just the other day I was in downtown Fort Worth and this guy pulls up in a mid 80s LeBaronn convertible. Not the last body style but the ugly boxy on before that. Granted they were crappy cars that were pretty ugly but this guy had kept it in perfect condition over all those years. It was highly polished on every corner and he was all dressed up to take his ride out. It made me appreciate his car. I can repsect that. That's a car guy.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Oil starvation does not seem to bother the M96 derivative engined 996 and 997 cars running on slicks in Grand Am....

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    BMCG said:
    Oil starvation does not seem to bother the M96 derivative engined 996 and 997 cars running on slicks in Grand Am....



    If they are not running GT derived engines then they have done engineering changes to the oil system to stay alive.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Porsche is definitely not the number one performer out of the show room as it used to be .......



    Funny, I don't remember things to have been that way.

    The way I remember it, Porsche always had real competition of some sort from the earliest 356s onwards.

    It's just that the competing marques have come and gone down the years, because none of them have been consistently competitive, mainly because they didn't offer the same reliability, quality, durability.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    There was a reason why the lightweight Porsches beat the heavier and more powerful cars in competition - both amatuer and professional.

    If you dont know that, do a bit of research asbout Porches
    pre Weidiking histoty that involved customers expecting what they got and not fretting over cupholders and Ipod connectivity.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    forhamilton said:
    Ronnie and Crash

    Maybe you should both shut up.

    Ronnie - Have you ever owned a Porsche?

    Crash - Have you ever owned a Corvette?

    You guys thouroughly enjoy p!$$ing each other off.



    To answer your question...yes I have owned Porsches (plural).



    And if you thought Porsche was second rate why did you buy another? Chill. Crash makes his points, albeit by means that you make yours on other forums. I don't go to my friend's birthday party to celebrate mine.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    forhamilton said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    forhamilton said:
    Ronnie and Crash

    Maybe you should both shut up.

    Ronnie - Have you ever owned a Porsche?

    Crash - Have you ever owned a Corvette?

    You guys thouroughly enjoy p!$$ing each other off.



    To answer your question...yes I have owned Porsches (plural).



    And if you thought Porsche was second rate why did you buy another? Chill. Crash makes his points, albeit by means that you make yours on other forums. I don't go to my friend's birthday party to celebrate mine.




    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    I don't see how you can be a car enthusiast without ever hitting the track. You cannot explore the limits, at least not for long, in any of these cars on the street. A lot of post say people don't buy Porsche for the track. WTF?!!! If your scared of road racing, hell at least hit an Auto-X. If u suck at placing the car, go to the drag strip and blow somebody's doors off in the 1/4!

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    rpmrush said:
    I don't see how you can be a car enthusiast without ever hitting the track.



    You need to think that through a little better.

    Quote:
    rpmrush said:
    You cannot explore the limits, at least not for long, in any of these cars on the street. A lot of post say people don't buy Porsche for the track...If your scared of road racing, hell at least hit an Auto-X. If u suck at placing the car, go to the drag strip and blow somebody's doors off in the 1/4!



    I don't track my Turbo, Porsche didn't sell me a Turbo "track car", my insurance will not provide coverage if I track my car, and I have no personal need to track my car.

    I don't need to spend hours at maximum cornering limits to understand what the Turbo is capable of. In terms of acceleration, I don't need a track to understand what the car's acceleration abilities are. And I don't need to track my car to fill my "fun square".

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    rpmrush said:
    I don't see how you can be a car enthusiast without ever hitting the track.



    You need to think that through a little better.

    Quote:
    rpmrush said:
    You cannot explore the limits, at least not for long, in any of these cars on the street. A lot of post say people don't buy Porsche for the track...If your scared of road racing, hell at least hit an Auto-X. If u suck at placing the car, go to the drag strip and blow somebody's doors off in the 1/4!



    I don't track my Turbo, Porsche didn't sell me a Turbo "track car", my insurance will not provide coverage if I track my car, and I have no personal need to track my car.

    I don't need to spend hours at maximum cornering limits to understand what the Turbo is capable of. In terms of acceleration, I don't need a track to understand what the car's acceleration abilities are. And I don't need to track my car to fill my "fun square".



    Exactly. A nice mountain road will provide you with all you need, even for at-the-limit driving if that's your fancy. Hitting the track doesn't necessarily make you a car enthusiast. It makes you a TRACK enthusiast.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Here's a cool video with a Z06 i'm sure we can all enjoy. Sweet sounds.

    http://turboflix.com/7D6F0275-8CEC-4734-BCC4-304A74154498

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    I see yet another roof has Come Off a Z06 on the freeway. Theres a reason GM lost 12 Billion Dollars last year. Theres also a reason Japanese are gaining market share while GM loses market share, Its called "Quality". I am begiining to believe the Z06 is a POS. Its Pathetic that roofs are separating from C6's. It doesn't look like Chevy has fixed the problem either the roofs are coming Off 2007's and they knew about the problem in 2006. GM spends twice as much as Toyota on Warranty problems. I can definitely confirm this with my 2 GM cars both have had extensive warranty problems with very few miles put on them.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    twinturbo001 said:
    I see yet another roof has Come Off a Z06 on the freeway. Theres a reason GM lost 12 Billion Dollars last year. Theres also a reason Japanese are gaining market share while GM loses market share, Its called "Quality". I am begiining to believe the Z06 is a POS. Its Pathetic that roofs are separating from C6's. It doesn't look like Chevy has fixed the problem either the roofs are coming Off 2007's and they knew about the problem in 2006. GM spends twice as much as Toyota on Warranty problems. I can definitely confirm this with my 2 GM cars both have had extensive warranty problems with very few miles put on them.



    Is it really worth it for them to spend so much on warranty issues when a simple design/construction alteration would prevent all of this?

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    twinturbo001 said:
    I see yet another roof has Come Off a Z06 on the freeway. Theres a reason GM lost 12 Billion Dollars last year. Theres also a reason Japanese are gaining market share while GM loses market share, Its called "Quality". I am begiining to believe the Z06 is a POS. Its Pathetic that roofs are separating from C6's. It doesn't look like Chevy has fixed the problem either the roofs are coming Off 2007's and they knew about the problem in 2006. GM spends twice as much as Toyota on Warranty problems. I can definitely confirm this with my 2 GM cars both have had extensive warranty problems with very few miles put on them.



    Perhaps we should list the myriad of problems the Turbo has had since it's inception. I mean didn't Toyota ust recall several hundred thousand cars. All new cars have problems.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    355Spider said:
    Quote:
    twinturbo001 said:
    I see yet another roof has Come Off a Z06 on the freeway. Theres a reason GM lost 12 Billion Dollars last year. Theres also a reason Japanese are gaining market share while GM loses market share, Its called "Quality". I am begiining to believe the Z06 is a POS. Its Pathetic that roofs are separating from C6's. It doesn't look like Chevy has fixed the problem either the roofs are coming Off 2007's and they knew about the problem in 2006. GM spends twice as much as Toyota on Warranty problems. I can definitely confirm this with my 2 GM cars both have had extensive warranty problems with very few miles put on them.



    Perhaps we should list the myriad of problems the Turbo has had since it's inception. I mean didn't Toyota ust recall several hundred thousand cars. All new cars have problems.


    Toyota did just recall some cars but Obviously you aren't reading what I am writing, Toyota has half the warranty claims including recalls that GM has. That means as a owner you have to go to the dealer half as much. Don't bother wasting my time with any talk of GM Quality. I have 2 relatively new(and expensive) GM products and I bought them only because Toyota didn't make that size vehicle and they both Suck.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    To weigh in on track issue, I do think it's worth the time, risk, and money to get out to the track, autocross, or driving school. I don't consider myself a "track rat" but I do like to get out there to learn the limits of the car. You just can't do that on public roads. If you do, you are endangering the public.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    To weigh in on track issue, I do think it's worth the time, risk, and money to get out to the track, autocross, or driving school. I don't consider myself a "track rat" but I do like to get out there to learn the limits of the car. You just can't do that on public roads. If you do, you are endangering the public.



    You're not really endangering anyone, by doing it on a deserted mountain road. It isn't the safest option, however.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    How do you know it's deserted when you are driving at 100+ mph and threshold braking into a turn? You should be concentrating on your driving. At the appropriate speeds and level of concentration on the car and what it is doing, you won't notice the two twelve year olds with skateboards who just exited the bushes and are looking for a short cut across the highway. There are just too many unknowns -- unless it is daytime and you have unlimited visibility. You can have fun on the street, but I think that it is extremely difficult to safely learn the limits of the car on public roads. Sorry to be a buzz-kill.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    How do you know it's deserted when you are driving at 100+ mph and threshold braking into a turn? You should be concentrating on your driving. At the appropriate speeds and level of concentration on the car and what it is doing, you won't notice the two twelve year olds with skateboards who just exited the bushes and are looking for a short cut across the highway. There are just too many unknowns -- unless it is daytime and you have unlimited visibility. You can have fun on the street, but I think that it is extremely difficult to safely learn the limits of the car on public roads. Sorry to be a buzz-kill.



    Not a buzz-kill at all, we all need a devil's advocate. I said mountain road. Virtually impossible to reach by foot, unless you like climbing rocks . We have one here, that's why I made this example. Racing through an urban area, omn the other hand, is stupid and those skateboarders become a much more likely scenario.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Well, access to a (virtually) closed road would be a joy. Good for you. Where I live in the Southeast, there are many rural, hilly areas that appear deserted and it's very tempted to take these wonderfully serpentine roads at excessive speeds. However, there are also a lot of trails frequented by deer hunters and teenagers driving ATVs, or pedestrians (usually kids) occasionally ambling around just off the highway. Or, alternatively, there's grandma in her 75 LTD over the center line, just around that awesome hairpin ahead...Mind you, all of these areas appear deserted about 90% of the time. Except for the truly deserted highway (which would seem rare to me), I think track days (DE, school, autox) serve to educate the vast majority of us enthusiasts.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    Well, access to a (virtually) closed road would be a joy. Good for you. Where I live in the Southeast, there are many rural, hilly areas that appear deserted and it's very tempted to take these wonderfully serpentine roads at excessive speeds. However, there are also a lot of trails frequented by deer hunters and teenagers driving ATVs, or pedestrians (usually kids) occasionally ambling around just off the highway. Or, alternatively, there's grandma in her 75 LTD over the center line, just around that awesome hairpin ahead...Mind you, all of these areas appear deserted about 90% of the time. Except for the truly deserted highway (which would seem rare to me), I think track days (DE, school, autox) serve to educate the vast majority of us enthusiasts.



    Yes, that's different. However, that road I am talking about isn't virtually deserted, it's accessible only to cars. And it has a reputation for fast driving, so other people avoid it or look very carefully for other vehicles. Plus, the asphalt is phenomenal, with lots of grip. I guess we're lucky in this regard.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:I don't consider myself a "track rat" but I do like to get out there to learn the limits of the car. You just can't do that on public roads. If you do, you are endangering the public.



    It doesn't take high speed to explore the cornering limits of the Turbo...it just takes sufficiently tight corners. There are lots of great mountain roads in North Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee - roads that are many times void of traffic, and that are tight enough to allow max performing the turns without requiring high speeds. The Tail of the Dragon is a famous example of a tight curvy road, and on many of it's 318 turns, 30-45 mph is right on the cornering limits of the Turbo.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    Or, alternatively, there's grandma in her 75 LTD over the center line, just around that awesome hairpin ahead...Mind you, all of these areas appear deserted about 90% of the time. Except for the truly deserted highway (which would seem rare to me), I think track days (DE, school, autox) serve to educate the vast majority of us enthusiasts.



    Many roads in the South allow the driver to clear three to four turns ahead, so the problems you mentioned can easily be avoided.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    With all due respect, I held your attitude -- until I began taking my cars to the track. It's difficult to get a reasonable sense of the limit, low speed or high speed, unless you've crossed over that limit, and that isn't something you want to do on public roads. You know, there are trees, and cars, and people who are minding their own business. Surely enough, low speed corners are a lot safer and may allow you to go a bit deeper, even on the street, but you will not have an accurate understanding of how loose you can get your car unless you've got a relatively safe laboratory for experiment. Autocrossing is great for basic dynamics, but the learning there ends at about 60mph. If you haven't already, join PCA, take your car to the track. I'm sure Peachtree PCA region has a lot of nice events at Road Atlanta. Barber is great too. You do not have to become a track junkie to get an idea what a different world it is when you can really push out the envelope. A really good instructor is key, but there are plenty in the PCA, and, of course, the PDE, or Skip Barber, Bondurant, etc. Then, when you return to your favorite roads, you will have the extra peace of mind knowing that you are driving well within your limit, even if your passengers need a change of underwear after riding with you. Your spirited driving on the street will be more enjoyable, if you take some time out for structured learning. Just my opinion.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    With all due respect, I held your attitude -- until I began taking my cars to the track.



    I've done the track thing, just not in the Turbo. It's no big deal.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    It's difficult to get a reasonable sense of the limit, low speed or high speed, unless you've crossed over that limit, and that isn't something you want to do on public roads...but you will not have an accurate understanding of how loose you can get your car unless you've got a relatively safe laboratory for experiment.



    It's not difficult to exceed the cornering limit on public roads - I've done it (intentionally). And once you've exceeded the limits it doesn't take doing it over and over again to get the idea. You need to drive Georgia Hwy 19 sometime...one lane down and two lanes going up the mountain (with a nice shoulder) - all kinds of "get well" room to the outside of the turn. It's very easy to probe the limits on this road and still be VERY safe.

    Have you ever driven the Tail of the Dragon?

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    If you haven't already, join PCA, take your car to the track.



    I'm not a PCA member, and I have no intention of ever tracking my Turbo. I can assure you, I'm not missing anything.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Well, good luck to you, and I wish safety as well. I do disagree, however, and I think your attitude is one of hubris. I do in fact think that once you've exceeded the limits, it takes much more practice, and you should know this if you have indeed done the "track thing." This sport/skill does take practice, like hitting a tennis or golf ball takes practice, and some instruction, to do it right -- only there's a helluva lot less at stake in golf or tennis. I don't think I'm alone in believing that driver training is, in fact, a big deal. Of course, you are right, in the sense that wherever there is pavement you can play around a bit. Just be careful and keep the ego in check.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    I do disagree, however, and I think your attitude is one of hubris.



    Then you think wrong.

    Quote:
    jlr said:I don't think I'm alone in believing that driver training is, in fact, a big deal.



    For some drivers yes...but not for all drivers.

    The issue you first brought up was..."I don't consider myself a "track rat" but I do like to get out there to learn the limits of the car. You just can't do that on public roads." My position is that I can "learn the limits of my car" on public roads. And once I've learned the car's limits (which I've done...and it has nothing to do with ego), I personally don't need to go out every week/month and drive the car at 100% to appreciate what it can do.

    If you enjoy going to the track, good for you. Just don't think it's for everybody or that all owners are "missing something" if they don't track their cars.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Hey, guys, of course you are both right so no need to argue. Each to his own. I have been through schools, had private racing coaches, data acquisition to find another 10th of a second through later breaking, faster entry, etc. etc. Finding the limit is not the challenge. It is staying as close to the limit the entire lap or race without exceeding the limit that is the task. Enjoy the performance of your great cars in a safe and challenging way, but each to his own. There is no absolute that fits all.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    You may not want to track your car and I can certainly respect that. And, it is possible to intentionally overstep the limits of a car on the street; I don't dispute that. But, I'm disputing that you are going to become an accomplished driver, who can consistently apply technique and be able to drive near that limit safely on regular basis, simply by hot-rodding around on the public highways. I really do not think that's a matter of opinion, and I am not concerned about what you are missing. I'm more concerned about the safety of non-participants who live in a world with people who drive 500 hp automobiles trust their natural talents and subjective experience to be able to pilot them safely. I'm sure that there are inherently gifted drivers who defy the odds, but most of us need instruction, a lot of experience, and a (relatively) safe playground. Please be careful. Safe journeys to you.

     
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