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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Lars997:

    The real damage is going to:

       - all employees of VW and vendors/suppliers (this are thousands of people and family members)
       - German Tax payers (like always we have to clean it up when employees loosing jobs
       - Shareholders loosing a fortune of money while having trust to the "illegally" operating board and executives
       - impact the entire German car industry 
       - impact the entire image about Germany

    Therefore consequences must be extremely hard towards people in charge of this decision. As decision of fraught was taken years ago, it should impact Piech and  entire subsequently decision tree below. I should not be a fine of money - valuating the damage it must be prison!

     

    Piech has been already "impacted" by the falling stock value since he is a shareholder. It will be difficult to prove if he knew about the illegal activities or not. Same goes to most CEOs at VW.

    The damage is quite substantial indeed and I do not think that the mentioned 18 billion and the currently 6.5 billion will be enough to "repair" the damage. I'd say that this will cost VW at least 30 billion over the next five years or so and even worse, we don't know what to expect from BMW and Mercedes yet. So far, there is no indication that they have tricked as well but just imagine if another major German car manufacturer did the same as VW...this would be total disaster.

    So right now, I would stay away from any car stocks but apparently there are some very courageous people playing the markets (look at the VW stock today). I hate to say this but I think the VW stock will drop under 100 EUR...

     

    I couldn't care less what happens to Piech or if his shares are dropping. And yes - stay away from that stocks, unless you are a high roller.

    BUT - how about reparations towards the German state and the impacted vendors/suppliers - and the affected employers and families behind?

    Also - when you have responsibility of a company you have to carry it all the way through. This kind of impacts you have for sure part of the guilt - if you knew about or not! Like 99% of executives you they will have a insurance covering the director accountability, but those are having limits when crime and fraught is involved. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Every "reparation" towards the German government and employees would actually milk VW dry, meaning that lots of jobs are on the line (and it will happen, no doubt about it). VW has over half a million of employees, so we shouldn't take this lightly. 

    I think that Winterkorn has to go. Period. He can stay until the scandal is "managed" but he needs to go at some point and he knows it. What he does right now is damaging the brand but he may not even realize it.

    Piech is actually a victim right now because we can only speculate about his involvement. Be gentle with him. 

    What is a little bit outrageous are the many comments in certain political forums in Germany: Apparently many people see some sort of US plot to ruin VW and the German industry, which is of course ridiculous. Also, many Germans seem to be surprised that some 2.0 l Diesel engines cannot fulfill US EPA regulations but some monster 7 l Diesel or 6 l petrol engines do. They do not understand the whole thing, which leads to many speculations and even angry comments like "the US with it's many V8 engines on the road shouldn't really accuse VW of anything..." but many people don't really understand that most Diesel engines are directly more hazardous to the health than even V8 petrol engines.

    Car buyers in Germany have been told for decades that Diesel engines are clean and that they should buy Diesel engines because of the low(er) fuel consumption. Of course the lower Diesel price in Germany helped as well. Now when I tell a guy with a 2.0 l Diesel 150 hp engine that his engine is actually more hazardous to the general health than my 3.8 l Boxer flat six engine with 430 hp, he doesn't believe me.

    Most people cannot really discern between long time environmental impacts and direct and immediate health hazards.

    It is going to be an interesting time for the whole (Diesel) car industry and especially the European car industry. Many European car manufacturers are actually only surviving because of the Diesel models they sell.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Diesel is the fuel of the devil .. this episode should raise the public's awareness of its noxiousness


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC - why should Winterkorn go and Piech is a victim?

    The cars been produced from 2004 onwards - so everything is based on decisions responsible by Piech. Would Winterkorn leave will help - from ideology - yes, but  a crisis like that needs a strong and well netted chairman. Mueller is not big enough, doesn't have the political network and standing. So I would leave Winterkorn a bit longer in his seat. Nevertheless - he and Piech, both should sit together in court!

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Lars997:

    RC - why should Winterkorn go and Piech is a victim?

    The cars been produced from 2004 onwards - so everything is based on decisions responsible by Piech. Would Winterkorn leave will help - from ideology - yes, but  a crisis like that needs a strong and well netted chairman. Mueller is not big enough, doesn't have the political network and standing. So I would leave Winterkorn a bit longer in his seat. Nevertheless - he and Piech, both should sit together in court!

     

    Piech isn't working for VW anymore, so right now, everything is speculation and he is a victim because the stock value of VW dropped substantially. Winterkorn is leading VW right now, he is responsible. Like a captain on a ship.

    Focusing on Piech and what he knew or not is a waste of time right now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    sfo:

    Diesel is the fuel of the devil .. this episode should raise the public's awareness of its noxiousness

    In Germany, most people are unaware of that. Actually, in most parts of Europe, people are unaware of that. Why? Because the devil has always been CO2 output and fuel consumption and this has indoctrinated people for decades. Now it is going to be impossible to change this mentality. I doubt it is going to change because Diesel is much cheaper than petrol in Europe.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Lars997:

    RC - why should Winterkorn go and Piech is a victim?

    The cars been produced from 2004 onwards - so everything is based on decisions responsible by Piech. Would Winterkorn leave will help - from ideology - yes, but  a crisis like that needs a strong and well netted chairman. Mueller is not big enough, doesn't have the political network and standing. So I would leave Winterkorn a bit longer in his seat. Nevertheless - he and Piech, both should sit together in court!

     

    Piech isn't working for VW anymore, so right now, everything is speculation and he is a victim because the stock value of VW dropped substantially. Winterkorn is leading VW right now, he is responsible. Like a captain on a ship.

    Focusing on Piech and what he knew or not is a waste of time right now.

    Again - if you sell wrong medicine to a patient and you will sell your pharmacy a day later to someone else - you still will be responsible for it the week after!


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Lars997:
    RC:
    Lars997:

    The real damage is going to:

       - all employees of VW and vendors/suppliers (this are thousands of people and family members)
       - German Tax payers (like always we have to clean it up when employees loosing jobs
       - Shareholders loosing a fortune of money while having trust to the "illegally" operating board and executives
       - impact the entire German car industry 
       - impact the entire image about Germany

    Therefore consequences must be extremely hard towards people in charge of this decision. As decision of fraught was taken years ago, it should impact Piech and  entire subsequently decision tree below. I should not be a fine of money - valuating the damage it must be prison!

     

    Piech has been already "impacted" by the falling stock value since he is a shareholder. It will be difficult to prove if he knew about the illegal activities or not. Same goes to most CEOs at VW.

    The damage is quite substantial indeed and I do not think that the mentioned 18 billion and the currently 6.5 billion will be enough to "repair" the damage. I'd say that this will cost VW at least 30 billion over the next five years or so and even worse, we don't know what to expect from BMW and Mercedes yet. So far, there is no indication that they have tricked as well but just imagine if another major German car manufacturer did the same as VW...this would be total disaster.

    So right now, I would stay away from any car stocks but apparently there are some very courageous people playing the markets (look at the VW stock today). I hate to say this but I think the VW stock will drop under 100 EUR...

     

    I couldn't care less what happens to Piech or if his shares are dropping. And yes - stay away from that stocks, unless you are a high roller.

    BUT - how about reparations towards the German state and the impacted vendors/suppliers - and the affected employers and families behind?

    Also - when you have responsibility of a company you have to carry it all the way through. This kind of impacts you have for sure part of the guilt - if you knew about or not! Like 99% of executives you they will have a insurance covering the director accountability, but those are having limits when crime and fraught is involved. 

    This is why it would be better if they focus on putting a few responsible people in jail for this, rather than trying to extract a 100 lbs of flesh in fines. The company could then go on under new leadership, which would go a long way to reestablishing credibility, and innocent people can keep their jobs and livelihoods. It would also send a stronger message to others considering the same sort of thing in the future: no golden parachute for you, just orange overalls.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Lars997:

    RC - why should Winterkorn go and Piech is a victim?

    The cars been produced from 2004 onwards - so everything is based on decisions responsible by Piech. Would Winterkorn leave will help - from ideology - yes, but  a crisis like that needs a strong and well netted chairman. Mueller is not big enough, doesn't have the political network and standing. So I would leave Winterkorn a bit longer in his seat. Nevertheless - he and Piech, both should sit together in court!

    Piech isn't working for VW anymore, so right now, everything is speculation and he is a victim because the stock value of VW dropped substantially. Winterkorn is leading VW right now, he is responsible. Like a captain on a ship.

    Focusing on Piech and what he knew or not is a waste of time right now.

    I thought these were only 2009-2014 cars? But, anyway, I don't think anyone should effectively enjoy immunity just because they are no longer with the company.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:
    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    @apias: Agree to all your statement, especially the one with sending a strong comment and putting some leaders to jail. And yes - it was 2009 not 2004, I was mistyping - but anyway, it was the period of Piech. 

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    apias:
    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    You made it - one sentence I had to check to words in the Dictionary Smiley

    And yes - this may be a Mayan human sacrifice but this is what it needs!


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
     

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    The person at the top is always ultimately responsible for actions that happen under their watch. I suppose it's part of the responsibility that comes with the position. Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    fritz:

    There are a couple more interesting insights into the background to this situation in the Car and Driver blog linked to below.

    For instance:
    "The revelation of this emissions subterfuge answers at least two questions about VW’s mighty little diesel. The first concerns urea injection, which every other modern diesel uses to pass emissions tests. (The 2015 TDI models have a new engine and urea-injection systems but for some reason still contained the devious code, according to the EPA’s statement.) The urea-injection systems help to neutralize NOx emissions, but they also add weight and cost to the car and also saddle buyers with yet another tank of liquid that must be monitored. If you run out of this diesel exhaust fluid, it’s like running out of fuel—on trucks with such systems, running dry on urea triggers a severe limp-home mode with a 5-mph speed limiter. That’s how seriously the EPA takes NOx.

    Everyone wondered how VW met emissions standards while foregoing urea injection for the cited 2009–2014 models. As it turns out, they didn’t. It wasn’t magical German engineering. Just plain old fraud.

    The second question concerned fuel economy. It’s been widely noted that four-cylinder TDIs tend to smash their EPA fuel-economy estimates in real-world driving. The last TDI Jetta SportWagen I drove was rated at 42 mpg highway, but on 60-mph two-lane roads I averaged more like 50 mpg. That’s a huge difference. Did running noncompliant emissions improve fuel economy? That’s possible. And if so, that raises an interesting question: When the cheater VWs emitted too much NOx, were they also emitting a lot less CO2 thanks to improved economy? Maybe the good doesn’t offset the bad, but it’s something to consider."

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-vw-diesel-scandal-is-much-worse-than-a-recall-its-outright-deceit/

    In view of the points highlighted in the above text, you have to wonder how the perpetrators of the deceit came to think that they had a high likelihood of getting away with it? (Though they did for 5 years).

    My Skoda has the European spec VW 2.0 TDI engine, the fuel consumption is almost identical to the tiny Toyota Yaris 1.4D that I had previously, on exactly the same commuter journey. That's pretty impressive for a fairly large car. The EU are now investigating whether or not VW Group cheated the EU regs as well to achieve this remarkable efficiency. If it has, and legally my car has to be modified to make it less efficient I'll want compensation or my money back, as I bought the car for it's economy, pure and simple.

    But you bought the car based on the published economy figures, which  -  assuming that the same situation applies to Euro market engines as the EPA certificated models  -  would suggest that you have experienced better engine performance and fuel consumption during your own ownership than you were really "entitled" to. (Based on the statements of the researchers cited in the Car and Driver blogs I linked to above. 
    So you should really be arguing that you owe the VW Group some money for over-delivering on engine performance.  Smiley
    I don't think you need to worry about VW wanting to ask you for a corresponding contribution to its EA189 Engine Exhaust Emissions Scandal Fund though.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It is the role of the CEO to be held responsible. It should not be acceptable that a company's culture allows anyone within it (let alone an entire department) to intentionally break the law and actively develop a utility to do so for any reason. 

     


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JoeRockhead:
    fritz:
     

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    The person at the top is always ultimately responsible for actions that happen under their watch. I suppose it's part of the responsibility that comes with the position. Smiley

    In an organisation with over 100.000 employees you can always guarantee that at any one time some of those employees will be involved in activities which are unethical, dishonest or even downright criminal as is the case here. Looked at pragmatically, the executives running that organisation would on the one hand need to be superhuman to be able invariably pick the right people and to instil the right kind of culture throughout the organisation which would eliminate all risk of wrongdoing, and on the other hand the skills of those executives are more urgently required to put things right when the shit hits the fan than at any other time.

    If the automatic reaction to every crisis is to sack the guy at the top regardless of personal guilt, no chief executive, president, prime minister, pope, or similar, could be expected to last more than five minutes in the job. Those people are there to resolve the problems arising, not just to be scapegoats.


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
     

    In an organisation with over 100.000 employees you can always guarantee that at any one time some of those employees will be involved in activities which are unethical, dishonest or even downright criminal as is the case here. Looked at pragmatically, the executives running that organisation would on the one hand need to be superhuman to be able invariably pick the right people and to instil the right kind of culture throughout the organisation which would eliminate all risk of wrongdoing, and on the other hand the skills of those executives are more urgently required to put things right when the shit hits the fan than at any other time.

    If the automatic reaction to every crisis is to sack the guy at the top regardless of personal guilt, no chief executive, president, prime minister, pope, or similar, could be expected to last more than five minutes in the job. Those people are there to resolve the problems arising, not just to be scapegoats.

    Well this is true, but the executives report to the board and the board reports to the shareholders, who have just collectively been kicked in the nuts, twice. I think this scandal runs deeper than just one or two guys in the engine department though. We shall see what happens.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JoeRockhead:
    fritz:
     

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    The person at the top is always ultimately responsible for actions that happen under their watch. I suppose it's part of the responsibility that comes with the position. Smiley

    Exactly! That's how I see it! Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Speaking as a shareholder who has taken a very hefty kick in the nuts (by my standards) in the last couple of days, I would prefer to think that the ship is under the command of a seasoned captain in this storm, rather than some headless chicken parachuted into the job as the result of an irrational knee-jerk reaction. (Some nicely-mixed metaphors there. Smiley)

    As you say, we do need to see what happens, which should depend on the outcome of the investigation of what happened in the past to lead up to this situation, rather than the said knee-jerk reaction.


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    fritz:
    RC:

    I just realized, after some thinking, that the problem VW has is actually much bigger.

    Why? Well, they just acknowledged having manipulated 11 Mio. cars worldwide. So far, fine.

    Now they put aside around 6,5 Billion EUR to take care of necessary mods on cars (to achieve the emissions tests) and for positive image campaigns. So far, so good. Again.

    Now here is the tricky question: Since their cars haven't achieved the emissions tests with the specs (I assume) advertised, how will these cars achieve the specs (torque, power, performance, etc.) with the implemented new emissions mods? I highly doubt it.

    So if a customer bought, let's say a VW Diesel with 200 hp and suddenly, this car will offer 170 hp only because of the emissions mods, will the customer accept that or will he demand a car according to the specs he paid for?

    I think you are getting my point. VW could be in a real legal shitload here and I'm not even sure they realize i yet.

    The emissions tests do not include a wide-open throttle, high-rev and full power element, so there would have been no "need" to manipulate the engine mapping for those conditions.
    What I suspect would more likely to happen is that the cars could be re-rated to higher emissions classes, so that they do not benefit from lower operating tax rates in those markets where such taxes vary with emissions output.  Smiley

    This particular question is answered in an interview cited below of the people who discovered the discrepancy between test-bench and real-world NOx emissions. The manipulation was obviously intended to reduce NOx emissions to compliant levels during the bench tests, but real world fuel consumption and power outputs were actually better than during the prescribed EPA test cycle.
    Quote:
    "...... it turns the emissions controls on for EPA testing and off for real-world driving. Somewhat ironically, the presumed benefits of turning off the controls for normal driving include improved fuel economy and engine power."

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/

    Why is this ironic? Smiley'

    Never mind, I misinterpreted the statement.


    --

     

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    IMO the whole thing could be a conspiracy against the German auto industry and consequently the German economy (which has become too strong for some).

    Suddenly the Americans, who BTW have consistently demonstrated their "environmental conscious" by disengaging from the Kyoto Protocol and refusing to ratify it, are alarmed by the NOx emissions of 500.000 diesel VW-Audi out of  200 million of extreme gas guzzlers in the US, as if this is the new Plague.

    OTOH Germans have been too naive to do something devious for which they could be so easily be caught. Too arrogant perhaps?

    I wonder if ultimately the VW Konzern will have to be bailed out by the German taxpayer if the whole thing becomes totally exploded globally?

    My 2.0 TDI might be rigged too but it is so good I don't care smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Lars997:
    fritz:
    apias:
    Lars997:

    The share price just dropped underneath 100,- € - lowest low 95,51.... angelheartmail

    I think the board needs to meet today, not wait till Friday, and Winterkorn has to go whether he was responsible or not, to try and stop the bleeding. I can't believe they put this meeting off this long. 

    I've never understood the reasoning behind wanting to find a scapegoat regardless of actual culpability when things go wrong. It makes a mockery of real justice. To sack someone who is not guilty of direct involvement to stop the bleeding of the company is no different than a Mayan human sacrifice, and society should have moved on from there by now. 

    You made it - one sentence I had to check to words in the Dictionary Smiley

    And yes - this may be a Mayan human sacrifice but this is what it needs!

    Yes, unfortunately, whether he knew about it or not, VW needs to make a strong PR statement here by sacrificing the leader. The important thing right now is to save the company, not any single individual.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I'm kind of surprised by the suggestion that volkswagon car owners have grounds for a suit.  They're geting better performance and fuel economy than expected. Smiley

    I mean, seriously, a Volkswagon might be worth considering now, unless they fixed the "problem".


    --

     

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    media focus is now on whether the CEO should resign. ( yeah that solves everything and Porsche buffs will get all the speciialty cars we pine for as f nothing every happened ) because that is now the story that sell papers or " clicks " ..they really could care less about the long term ramifications to company, , its brand , affected workers/ suppliers, car owners ...that requires too much journalistic effort in a field that pays like a hamburger flipper ...then after he steps down, all the VW stories will disappear ...from a media editors standpoint, it will be a stale week old story ...time to move on to superficially cover the next " click bait " story

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    IMO Winterkorn should remain as CEO until the dust settles and then be dismissed. To do something wrong is bad, to get caught is the ultimate failure.

    It would have been stupid to install a new person in the middle of this turmoil and let him be damaged by the smear. Let the new CEO take over when things normalize.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    He has just resigned...


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    IMO the whole thing could be a conspiracy against the German auto industry and consequently the German economy (which has become too strong for some).

    Suddenly the Americans, who BTW have consistently demonstrated their "environmental conscious" by disengaging from the Kyoto Protocol and refusing to ratify it, are alarmed by the NOx emissions of 500.000 diesel VW-Audi out of  200 million of extreme gas guzzlers in the US, as if this is the new Plague.

    OTOH Germans have been too naive to do something devious for which they could be so easily be caught. Too arrogant perhaps?

    I wonder if ultimately the VW Konzern will have to be bailed out by the German taxpayer if the whole thing becomes totally exploded globally?

    My 2.0 TDI might be rigged too but it is so good I don't care smiley

    Same here even if it is installed in a humble Skoda! Smiley


    --

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


     
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