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    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    Well said, Nick.




    He's got a very good point re; the CGT & GT2. How does the Porsche side explain that?

    ps: I'm neutral on the whole P vs F-Car thing, Sweden.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    Well said, Nick.




    He's got a very good point re; the CGT & GT2. How does the Porsche side explain that?

    ps: I'm neutral on the whole P vs F-Car thing, Sweden.



    Could it be because nobody really wants the cars? After all, both the CGT and the GT2 have a fearsome reputation as dangerous cars (I'd take a 599 over a CGT for that exact reason). Not many people with high income willing to risk it like that I would wager...

    "diluted brand and image"

    Sorry, just don't buy that as the reason for the CGT or GT2's poor resale value. The GT2 was premium priced and many thought that the premium was just to high on that car given the value it provided. Folks saw it as a "decontented" turbo at a 50% premium. The CGT was priced so high that Porsche was playing in marketspace that isn't their normal game (I can get all the goodness of Porsche in a car that cost 1/3 the CGT).

    Has nothing to do with diluted brand and image.



    By the way, other than Ferrari (who we have discussed ad nauseum regarding their marketing scheme in the U.S. - are their other "premium brands" that hold their value as well as Porsche. Certainly not Lambos or A-M, who then other than Ferrari.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    Of course it has to due with supply vs. demand, all used car prices are based on this, it isn't any different for Ferrari or Porsche. But it's not entirely true that Porsche doesn't restrict supply, they do. They're not like larger car companies that will offer more cars than the demand and then offer huge incentives to buyers but they try not to flood the market with cars that will just sit on dealer lots. So I don't buy that point entirely. Yes, Porsche gets more cars to buyers than Ferrari does but it's not un restricted. But it's more complicated than that.

    To address your good point though - Sure if Ferrari produced many more cars the supply would go up and if demand was the same at some point the prices of pre-owned examples would go down. But again it's not as simple as Ferrari saying ' hey, were going to build three time as many 430's this year', they're just not set up to handle that. And there are dozens of reasons why they shouldn't and more importantly COULDNT. The final assembly lines are tiny in scale. The more they manufacturer, the less control they have. There's supply line issues, labor, major dealer issues, especially problems w/ quality control,, hundreds of issues that would have to be dealt with and in the end, the product would definitely suffer. They know this, it's no secret why they've decided to limit production and it's not JUST based on wanting to keep the exclusivity of the brand. They're going to increase production, increase profits, but not at the expense of ruining or diluting everything Ferrari is about. You should see the factory if you haven't already, I was there last July and was amazed by their processes. It's not like GM where they can just build 10 times the amount of cars if the model is selling well. There's very good reasons for them not to over produce and again it's more complicated than just wanting to keep their cars market values in tact,,,,, it's a whole nother subject...

    But back to your supply vs. demand. How about price? Price point is a MAJOR component to how much demand there is. And at the price point of a 430 the market is so much smaller than that of the turbo's market but no one talks about that. Fact is there is a much larger # of people that can comfortably afford the turbo vs the 430, which affects the size of the market and the demand. The position that the 8cyl Ferrari wouldn't have as strong re-sale if they made more cars is like me saying : ' if the turbo had to sell at the 430's price, Porsche wouldn't sell anywhere near as many turbo's as they do'. On the other hand IF for some reason Porsche decided to cut the production of turbo's in half of course the car would have stronger re-sale value. It's the if, if,if thing all over just not reality ................

    But bottom line I don't have anything against the turbo, if my 996 turbo was a convertible I would have kept it and waited for the 997 turbo cab instead of buying a 997 S Cab and putting down a deposit for a 997 turbo cabriolet but one of the things I wish the turbo had was better depreciation similair to that of the 430, now that would be sweet for a lot of Porsche owners. But unfortunately for us instead of having the money back in OUR pockets from the buying & selling of our Porsche cars the money is in Porsche's pockets in the form of record breaking sales, extremely high margins (the best in the industry in fact), EPS & EBITDA. Because in the end that's what we're talking about here money and in the case of Porsche more money ends up in the company's pockets where in the case of Ferrari if they increased production and pocketed more profits there would be less money put back in the pockets of owners/drivers. I don't understand how anyone would want to see the corporation with more and the individual owners pocket less when it comes time to trade. I mean it's a GOOD thing for 430 owners that they get back their money, right why would any individual owner not want that? On the other hand, fortunately for potential turbo owners that also means many more folks are able to buy a great car vs. stranded for years on the Ferrari 430 wait list. Man, that's got be my longest post, if you've read this far and haven't fallen asleep I give you credit.. Yes, I was a stockbroker.



    I appreciate your reply, Stradale.

    I love Ferraris, and if I had a choice between an F430, 997Turbo and a Gallardo, I wouldn't have to think twice about choosing the F430. So I think I bring an objective perspective to this issue.

    I'm not saying that Porsches would depreciate less if they restricted supply, or visa-versa. My point is that when comparing depreciation rates, it's more complicated than the incorrigible Mr. Berry would have you believe (he really gets on my nerves sometimes). So I used the Lambo example to try and prove my point.

    But I agree with you, there are many factors involved and had Porsche created 3year waiting lists for a 911, it's depreciation in my view would be still greater than a Ferrari.

    As for the CGT/GT2, stick a Ferrari badge on the CGT and it would probably go up in value like the Enzo. They are restricted in supply, yes. But their value is influenced by all Porsche models, whose supply are, for all intents and purposes, only restricted by the amount they can sell.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    If you dont mind want to give some examples from here, regarding F430 and 997TT resale value.

    A new 997TT with full option is 280.000 Euro
    Same full optioned F430 is about 330.000 Euro

    2006 Model 5000km f430 is between 290-310k Euro

    2007 Model 997 TT 1500km is between 235-240k Euro

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Danny G wrote,

    As for the CGT/GT2, stick a Ferrari badge on the CGT and it would probably go up in value like the Enzo. They are restricted in supply, yes. But their value is influenced by all Porsche models, whose supply are, for all intents and purposes, only restricted by the amount they can sell.

    EXACTLY! The brand is being diluted. Right now Porsche is making money like no other car manufacturer and the buyer's of their product are paying the price.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    I'm glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. It's a shame Ferrari has to resort to limiting supply to sell their awful looking cars. They know full well if they were to make more cars they would be more accountable for design and quality issues. As it is now, they are getting away with "murder," er, rather spitting in their customers' faces. They should be ashamed for manipulating the market for their cars at the expense of their customers.

    David




    You mean POTENTIAL customers. I doubt very many actual customers have a problem with the 430's depreciation....Besides you have a weird position, you feel the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car and at the same time you're blasting Ferrari for not making enough of them.


    RE: your previous post; you're welcome.



    I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."

    David

    P.s. can you do me a favor and look at the other articles in that September 2006 issue of EVO and see if you can find a remark calling the F430 Spider vulgar? thanks.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Substitute Porsche brand for cheap interior and there is no substitute for "but its a Ferrari" and this sounds just like the ZO6 versus the world debates.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    That's exactly right. It does sound a lot like the same argument made by Porschephiles how the z06 isn't a Porsche.

    DavidSF's statement that 'Porsche cares about its customer and therefore produces a crapload of cars' is either a very sarcastic remark or this guy works for Porsche NA or a Porsche dealership.

    That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums. (and there's been some pretty bad arguments)

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:

    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David




    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    That's exactly right. It does sound a lot like the same argument made by Porschephiles how the z06 isn't a Porsche.

    DavidSF's statement that 'Porsche cares about its customer and therefore produces a crapload of cars' is either a very sarcastic remark or this guy works for Porsche NA or a Porsche dealership.

    That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums. (and there's been some pretty bad arguments)



    You completely missed his point:

    "Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values."

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David



    Well said!

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David




    David - What sports cars do you own/have you owned? Doesn't matter if you haven't owned any, you still have as good a right to post here as any. The reason I ask is I just want to have an idea about where you're getting some of your opinion's from because honestly I'm beginning to think you're kind of a knucklehead. (meant in a playful way) No offense it's just that some of your positions are...well they just seem like personal assumptions than based on reality. Here's what I mean:

    "However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" "
    First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? If they cared so much about getting more CGT's into the hands of customers and not about making money off their customers why would they have CUT at the last minute the amount of CGT's to be produced from 1500 to 1250? Why not just make those 1500 cars and let more people afford them?

    "Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value"
    ????? Unless you're a Saudi prince I'm betting you care about what happens to your half a million dollar purchase, whether it be a car, real estate or anything else that costs half a million dollars, the people that can afford a car at that price didn't get wealthy by not caring about what happens to their money.

    "It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things"
    First off whatever your prejudice is, it's a shame you're continuing it here on a sports car forum. As P-car/ F-Car owners we already have enough clueless people making judgements about why we love these cars. Second off I don't own a gold diamond encrusted Rolex and if someone does good for you. But where do you get this analogy from anyway? I can honestly say that in the last few years of attending dozens of Ferrari events and rally's I've yet to see a single F-car owner wearing a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". Do you often attend Ferrari rallye's where everyone is wearing diamond encrusted Rolex's or is it just something you decided that you've seen in your mind, kinda like the "vulgar" comment ? It's weird but according to you the Gallardo Spyder is a fantastic looking car but the 430 Spider is like a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". The cars are very, very similair, it's not like you're comparing a 430 vs a Ford Taurus. Come on, honestly what's your REAL beef w/ Ferrari? Did you get treated badly by a dealer or something?

    RE: Your next post : "I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."
    Yeah, Ferrari customers are really being spit on by Ferrari, the best Ferrari customers those Enzo owners really got the shaft and sucks owning a F430, I feel like I just got ripped off.... The whole Ferrari experience from driving the heck out of my CS and then trading it in 2 years later, making money in the process, to visiting the factory with my wife for a free tour and then picking up my bee spoke, customized 430, the Ferrari dealer/sales experience was just horrible, including the personalized service, wish I was treated more like when I pick up my P-cars. Even my Ferrari dealer's charity rally events that they organize twice a year, where the Police close down traffic on Long Island highways for us to drive on, it's a terrible thing, the balls of them to ask me to participate. Spit! And the icing on the cake - there's the horrible performance of the 430, I mean it's just a terrible car to drive, no fun at all, how can Ferrari even offer this car to it's customers they should be ashamed... Yeah, I feel like Ferrari is spitting at the owners, it's been just terrible. lol! ridiculous.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    DavidSF's statement that 'Porsche cares about its customer and therefore produces a crapload of cars' is either a very sarcastic remark or this guy works for Porsche NA or a Porsche dealership.

    That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on these forums. (and there's been some pretty bad arguments)




    Sometimes you can understand both opposing positions but for me the position that 'Porsche cares more about their customers than Ferrari',,,,,,,,,, isn't one of them.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    Of course it has to due with supply vs. demand, all used car prices are based on this, it isn't any different for Ferrari or Porsche. But it's not entirely true that Porsche doesn't restrict supply, they do. They're not like larger car companies that will offer more cars than the demand and then offer huge incentives to buyers but they try not to flood the market with cars that will just sit on dealer lots. So I don't buy that point entirely. Yes, Porsche gets more cars to buyers than Ferrari does but it's not un restricted. But it's more complicated than that.

    To address your good point though - Sure if Ferrari produced many more cars the supply would go up and if demand was the same at some point the prices of pre-owned examples would go down. But again it's not as simple as Ferrari saying ' hey, were going to build three time as many 430's this year', they're just not set up to handle that. And there are dozens of reasons why they shouldn't and more importantly COULDNT. The final assembly lines are tiny in scale. The more they manufacturer, the less control they have. There's supply line issues, labor, major dealer issues, especially problems w/ quality control,, hundreds of issues that would have to be dealt with and in the end, the product would definitely suffer. They know this, it's no secret why they've decided to limit production and it's not JUST based on wanting to keep the exclusivity of the brand. They're going to increase production, increase profits, but not at the expense of ruining or diluting everything Ferrari is about. You should see the factory if you haven't already, I was there last July and was amazed by their processes. It's not like GM where they can just build 10 times the amount of cars if the model is selling well. There's very good reasons for them not to over produce and again it's more complicated than just wanting to keep their cars market values in tact,,,,, it's a whole nother subject...

    But back to your supply vs. demand. How about price? Price point is a MAJOR component to how much demand there is. And at the price point of a 430 the market is so much smaller than that of the turbo's market but no one talks about that. Fact is there is a much larger # of people that can comfortably afford the turbo vs the 430, which affects the size of the market and the demand. The position that the 8cyl Ferrari wouldn't have as strong re-sale if they made more cars is like me saying : ' if the turbo had to sell at the 430's price, Porsche wouldn't sell anywhere near as many turbo's as they do'. On the other hand IF for some reason Porsche decided to cut the production of turbo's in half of course the car would have stronger re-sale value. It's the if, if,if thing all over just not reality ................

    But bottom line I don't have anything against the turbo, if my 996 turbo was a convertible I would have kept it and waited for the 997 turbo cab instead of buying a 997 S Cab and putting down a deposit for a 997 turbo cabriolet but one of the things I wish the turbo had was better depreciation similair to that of the 430, now that would be sweet for a lot of Porsche owners. But unfortunately for us instead of having the money back in OUR pockets from the buying & selling of our Porsche cars the money is in Porsche's pockets in the form of record breaking sales, extremely high margins (the best in the industry in fact), EPS & EBITDA. Because in the end that's what we're talking about here money and in the case of Porsche more money ends up in the company's pockets where in the case of Ferrari if they increased production and pocketed more profits there would be less money put back in the pockets of owners/drivers. I don't understand how anyone would want to see the corporation with more and the individual owners pocket less when it comes time to trade. I mean it's a GOOD thing for 430 owners that they get back their money, right why would any individual owner not want that? On the other hand, fortunately for potential turbo owners that also means many more folks are able to buy a great car vs. stranded for years on the Ferrari 430 wait list. Man, that's got be my longest post, if you've read this far and haven't fallen asleep I give you credit.. Yes, I was a stockbroker.



    I appreciate your reply, Stradale.

    I love Ferraris, and if I had a choice between an F430, 997Turbo and a Gallardo, I wouldn't have to think twice about choosing the F430. So I think I bring an objective perspective to this issue.

    I'm not saying that Porsches would depreciate less if they restricted supply, or visa-versa. My point is that when comparing depreciation rates, it's more complicated than the incorrigible Mr. Berry would have you believe (he really gets on my nerves sometimes). So I used the Lambo example to try and prove my point.

    But I agree with you, there are many factors involved and had Porsche created 3year waiting lists for a 911, it's depreciation in my view would be still greater than a Ferrari.

    As for the CGT/GT2, stick a Ferrari badge on the CGT and it would probably go up in value like the Enzo. They are restricted in supply, yes. But their value is influenced by all Porsche models, whose supply are, for all intents and purposes, only restricted by the amount they can sell.




    Agree 100%

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Stradale you said:

    "First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? "

    Have you listened to yourself?
    Since when is making a profit a crime? So Porsche is profitable b/c it hates its customers and its products are basicaly a "piece of sh*t in a box packaged all pretty"? Give your head a shake. If Porsche didn't care about its customers or its product no one would buy the cars dude. The fact that Porsche is selling cars and a lot of them should tell anyone that their customers are happy.

    I know I am and I've purchased 3 Porsche's since 1999.
    So the fact that Ferrari doesn't make the profits Porsche does makes Ferrari more caring to their customers???? Does this make sense to anyone????

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Stradale you said:

    "First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? "

    Have you listened to yourself?
    Since when is making a profit a crime? So Porsche is profitable b/c it hates its customers and its products are basicaly a "piece of sh*t in a box packaged all pretty"? Give your head a shake. If Porsche didn't care about its customers or its product no one would buy the cars dude. The fact that Porsche is selling cars and a lot of them should tell anyone that their customers are happy.

    I know I am and I've purchased 3 Porsche's since 1999.
    So the fact that Ferrari doesn't make the profits Porsche does makes Ferrari more caring to their customers???? Does this make sense to anyone????




    Nah, you missed the point I was trying to make. I'm going on my 3rd Porsche too but since 2002. It's not that I'm opposed to the compnay making a healthy profit, profit is great and making a healthy profit helps R&D, Q.C. etc. etc make better cars for us to drive. But the very point has been made that Ferrari holds back cars and people are right they do and part of the reason for this is to keep customers value's in tact. That's where Ferrari is so different from Porsche and the point I was trying to make. Porsche could do this too and decide to sell a little less cars, making a little less profit but instead they have decided to sell as many cars as possible, it's no secret that's one of their most important goals. With Ferrari that depreciation difference goes back to the owner but with Porsche the car's depreciate because it's so easy to just buy a new one because Porsche wants to sell as many as possible so they can make as much profit as possible. The CGT vs Enzo is great example, if Porsche felt they could sell those 1500 CGT's you bet they would have made them vs. Ferrari where they probably could have sold twice as many Enzo's but made the opposite decision. Who loses and wins in this decision? The customers.

    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    To my mind this whole discussion is rather silly, because if you are concerned about depreciation on any of the forementioned cars, you can't afford them.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Nah, you missed the point I was trying to make. I'm going on my 3rd Porsche too but since 2002. It's not that I'm opposed to the compnay making a healthy profit, profit is great and making a healthy profit helps R&D, Q.C. etc. etc make better cars for us to drive. But the very point has been made that Ferrari holds back cars and people are right they do and part of the reason for this is to keep customers value's in tact. That's where Ferrari is so different from Porsche and the point I was trying to make. Porsche could do this too and decide to sell a little less cars, making a little less profit but instead they have decided to sell as many cars as possible, it's no secret that's one of their most important goals. With Ferrari that depreciation difference goes back to the owner but with Porsche the car's depreciate because it's so easy to just buy a new one because Porsche wants to sell as many as possible so they can make as much profit as possible. The CGT vs Enzo is great example, if Porsche felt they could sell those 1500 CGT's you bet they would have made them vs. Ferrari where they probably could have sold twice as many Enzo's but made the opposite decision. Who loses and wins in this decision? The customers.

    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    That's easy to say when you own a 430 at MSRP. The point people are making is that a lot of people would (including me) buy a 430 at MSRP right now even if they loose 50% over 4 years (like in europe). But you can't. Period. You HAVE to get into a game which is IMHO disgusting and borderline illegal. That is not how you "care" about your customers, let alone the "royal" treatment you get when you go to a F dealer unless you have licked their a...

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Over the Hill said:
    To my mind this whole discussion is rather silly, because if you are concerned about depreciation on any of the forementioned cars, you can't afford them.



    I know I hear this frequently on this forum. Fact is it's bs. Hell, I could be worth 1 billion dollars and still be concerned about depreciation. And the opposite is true maybe I'm not concerned w/ deprecition, I own Porsche and the only thing I own besides my Porsche is my trailer home but couldn't care one iota about depreciation. The point doesn't hold water. Point being - Some can easily afford these cars, some can afford to buy more than a few but still care about which cars depreciate and which don't.

    Being interested in which appreciate like the 430/or hold their value vs. which depreciate like the turbo doesn't mean you can or cannot afford the cars.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Over the Hill said:
    To my mind this whole discussion is rather silly, because if you are concerned about depreciation on any of the forementioned cars, you can't afford them.



    Read my post above... You are missing the point.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Have you listened to yourself?
    Since when is making a profit a crime? So Porsche is profitable b/c it hates its customers and its products are basicaly a "piece of sh*t in a box packaged all pretty"? Give your head a shake. If Porsche didn't care about its customers or its product no one would buy the cars dude. The fact that Porsche is selling cars and a lot of them should tell anyone that their customers are happy.

    I know I am and I've purchased 3 Porsche's since 1999.
    So the fact that Ferrari doesn't make the profits Porsche does makes Ferrari more caring to their customers???? Does this make sense to anyone????



    So according to your logic BMW and Mercedes must care about their customers even more than Porsche... because they sell a hell-of-a-lot more cars and they make sure there are enough to go around.

    Porsche cares MORE about overall profit than its customers. They are becoming more BMW-like everyday. If you bought their product in the 80s you'd understand this much more.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Waiting the three months between order and delivery of my TT was almost killing me... waiting two years for a pleeb buyer like me for a F430 is madness to me. So while you guys are waiting to enjoy your cars, I'm driving mine and the depreciation is just the cost of being able to enjoy it sooner.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David




    David - What sports cars do you own/have you owned? Doesn't matter if you haven't owned any, you still have as good a right to post here as any. The reason I ask is I just want to have an idea about where you're getting some of your opinion's from because honestly I'm beginning to think you're kind of a knucklehead. (meant in a playful way) No offense it's just that some of your positions are...well they just seem like personal assumptions than based on reality. Here's what I mean:

    "However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" "
    First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? If they cared so much about getting more CGT's into the hands of customers and not about making money off their customers why would they have CUT at the last minute the amount of CGT's to be produced from 1500 to 1250? Why not just make those 1500 cars and let more people afford them?

    "Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value"
    ????? Unless you're a Saudi prince I'm betting you care about what happens to your half a million dollar purchase, whether it be a car, real estate or anything else that costs half a million dollars, the people that can afford a car at that price didn't get wealthy by not caring about what happens to their money.

    "It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things"
    First off whatever your prejudice is, it's a shame you're continuing it here on a sports car forum. As P-car/ F-Car owners we already have enough clueless people making judgements about why we love these cars. Second off I don't own a gold diamond encrusted Rolex and if someone does good for you. But where do you get this analogy from anyway? I can honestly say that in the last few years of attending dozens of Ferrari events and rally's I've yet to see a single F-car owner wearing a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". Do you often attend Ferrari rallye's where everyone is wearing diamond encrusted Rolex's or is it just something you decided that you've seen in your mind, kinda like the "vulgar" comment ? It's weird but according to you the Gallardo Spyder is a fantastic looking car but the 430 Spider is like a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". The cars are very, very similair, it's not like you're comparing a 430 vs a Ford Taurus. Come on, honestly what's your REAL beef w/ Ferrari? Did you get treated badly by a dealer or something?

    RE: Your next post : "I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."
    Yeah, Ferrari customers are really being spit on by Ferrari, the best Ferrari customers those Enzo owners really got the shaft and sucks owning a F430, I feel like I just got ripped off.... The whole Ferrari experience from driving the heck out of my CS and then trading it in 2 years later, making money in the process, to visiting the factory with my wife for a free tour and then picking up my bee spoke, customized 430, the Ferrari dealer/sales experience was just horrible, including the personalized service, wish I was treated more like when I pick up my P-cars. Even my Ferrari dealer's charity rally events that they organize twice a year, where the Police close down traffic on Long Island highways for us to drive on, it's a terrible thing, the balls of them to ask me to participate. Spit! And the icing on the cake - there's the horrible performance of the 430, I mean it's just a terrible car to drive, no fun at all, how can Ferrari even offer this car to it's customers they should be ashamed... Yeah, I feel like Ferrari is spitting at the owners, it's been just terrible. lol! ridiculous.



    I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster. Previously I owned a Toyota MR-2 turbo. I am a fan of mid-engine sports cars. My next car will be a Cayman S when it gets the HP bump to past 300hp and with PDK. I paid cash for my new Boxster. Resale value isn't that important to me. What was important to me was I got my custom ordered car with only a 3 month wait. That is why I say Porsche cares about its customers more than Ferrari. Porsche's business model is more about the customer, less on the "brand and image" crowd. I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" because of these 3 reasons: 1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari. 2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP. 3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars. How can you resolve the above 3 points with customer satisfaction? How is that customer focused? Rather it seems to me Ferrari is trying to manipulate the market for their cars instead of being more accountable and taking responsibility for the quality of the cars they produce. Contrast with Porsche. New Porsches have less than a year wait. Often just 3 months for custom ordered cars. New Porsches can readily be found for under MSRP. Porsches look great. Isn't that very customer focused? If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired? I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar. I felt it was an appropriate comparision since I consider those wathces vulgar too, yet there are buyers and admirers of such things that I can't understand. Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions. I am making a statement more about the car, and its vulgarities, and not the owners. I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch. Both are flashy, no doubt. One is elegant, classy, and beautfiul. The other is not.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Stradale you said:

    "First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? "

    Have you listened to yourself?
    Since when is making a profit a crime? So Porsche is profitable b/c it hates its customers and its products are basicaly a "piece of sh*t in a box packaged all pretty"? Give your head a shake. If Porsche didn't care about its customers or its product no one would buy the cars dude. The fact that Porsche is selling cars and a lot of them should tell anyone that their customers are happy.

    I know I am and I've purchased 3 Porsche's since 1999.
    So the fact that Ferrari doesn't make the profits Porsche does makes Ferrari more caring to their customers???? Does this make sense to anyone????




    Nah, you missed the point I was trying to make. I'm going on my 3rd Porsche too but since 2002. It's not that I'm opposed to the compnay making a healthy profit, profit is great and making a healthy profit helps R&D, Q.C. etc. etc make better cars for us to drive. But the very point has been made that Ferrari holds back cars and people are right they do and part of the reason for this is to keep customers value's in tact. That's where Ferrari is so different from Porsche and the point I was trying to make. Porsche could do this too and decide to sell a little less cars, making a little less profit but instead they have decided to sell as many cars as possible, it's no secret that's one of their most important goals. With Ferrari that depreciation difference goes back to the owner but with Porsche the car's depreciate because it's so easy to just buy a new one because Porsche wants to sell as many as possible so they can make as much profit as possible. The CGT vs Enzo is great example, if Porsche felt they could sell those 1500 CGT's you bet they would have made them vs. Ferrari where they probably could have sold twice as many Enzo's but made the opposite decision. Who loses and wins in this decision? The customers.

    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    Disagree about the Enzo vs. CGT. How many Enzos were made? 200? If Ferrari made as many Enzos as CGTs, they wouldn't be able to sell them for $1M (where's the "exclusivity?") and there wouldn't be a years long wait. Conversely if Porsche made as few CGTs as Enzos, they could charge $1M and make their customers wait years. You tell me which business model is more customer friendly.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    Hey Stradale,

    I have followed this thread with interest, and had agree with all your posts 100% up until this quote.

    If Porsche is earning $20K+ with each 911, how much do you think Ferrari earns per F430? The freebies that Ferrari gives out with your car seems like peanuts compare to the price you pay them.

    Also look at the maintenance costs of Porsche vs Ferrari. Do you really think the engine oil they put in your F430 is much better than in my 997S? Or do you think the Ferrari technicians hold a higher education degree than the Porsche guys to justify their higher fees?
    I have never own any Ferrari even though I can easily afford one. MSRP of a F430 is twice of my 997S. Honestly, I do not believe that it is twice as good. All cars will depreciate. F430 holds better value mainly because it has a lower production number. Thats all.
    I'm not trying to start an argument with you. But the fact is I don't see how Porsche is ripping off their customers any more than Ferrari will.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    Hey Stradale,

    I have followed this thread with interest, and had agree with all your posts 100% up until this quote.

    If Porsche is earning $20K+ with each 911, how much do you think Ferrari earns per F430? The freebies that Ferrari gives out with your car seems like peanuts compare to the price you pay them.

    Also look at the maintenance costs of Porsche vs Ferrari. Do you really think the engine oil they put in your F430 is much better than in my 997S? Or do you think the Ferrari technicians hold a higher education degree than the Porsche guys to justify their higher fees?
    I have never own any Ferrari even though I can easily afford one. MSRP of a F430 is twice of my 997S. Honestly, I do not believe that it is twice as good. All cars will depreciate. F430 holds better value mainly because it has a lower production number. Thats all.
    I'm not trying to start an argument with you. But the fact is I don't see how Porsche is ripping off their customers any more than Ferrari will.



    Yes if one says Porsche is ripping off their customers than you have to conclude Ferrari is too. The difference is Porsche isn't "spitting in their customers' faces" while ripping them off by making them wait years, producing terrible looking cars, and making them pay over MSRP, like Ferrari.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Personally, I care about depreciation, but I can't sacrifice so much to downgrade to a non-winter friendly, slower car; without childseats or even map based navigation.

    There are lots of antique cars out there that may even appreciate if you shop carefully, but so what if they don't suit your needs.

    And lastly, I could be completely wrong, but somehow I feel safer in a Porsche than a Ferrari, just like I feel safer in a VW than a Fiat.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:The difference is Porsche isn't "spitting in their customers' faces" while ripping them off by making them wait years, producing terrible looking cars, and making them pay over MSRP, like Ferrari.

    David



    But Ferrari is only making fun of the low-end buyers. You don't have to wait to get a 612 and they will gladly give you discounts.

     
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