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    Re: GT2 ?

    No matter how much hp as far as the car is freaking fast! Anyway, I need to spend lots of time and training to get use to that power and to handle the car well.

    I hope the GT2 will be hardcore and having the racing feel.
    Plus keep it light!

    Today, I have driven an F599, surprisingly I don't feel the 620 horse power and maybe the car is too soft and heavy for my taste.
    And it is boring to play with the F1 gearbox on street, just give me a manual gearbox.

    I perfer race car feeling, manual and turbo boost!

    Can't wait to see the new GT2!

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:

    more HP means more weight for stronger parts, stronger breaks, ...
    Porsche is going a different way, buy trying to keep the weight, thus you don't need so much more HP to be fast on tracks. Straight forward performance is a different story. Here in Europe we care more about track performance then straight forward performance.

    AM



    While we seem to agree on the outcome of Porsche's recent hp strategy we seem to disagree on the cause: I am convinced that Porsche's lack of ability to offer leading performance in case of cars like 997TT, GT2, GT3 etc. is the outcome of an improper analyses of the competitive environment for high-performance sports cars. Porsche did not realize in time what was (and is) going on in their competitive environment. The result: Current Porsche technology and products are no longer good enough to beat the major competitors.

    To put it in very simple terms: Porsche got fu**ed by their competitors

    Re: GT2 ?

    I disagree. Porsche just changed Target group.. They dont care about performance So much anymore just to make sales-profits. They care about safety and how to make easy driven cars by medium experienced drivers. (in order to make more sales) I can see that Bmw - Mercedes is a bigger competitor now for Porsche than Lambo - Ferrari

    Re: GT2 ?

    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    If we consider the overall performance Porsche was and will be number one. It is not enough to put one small piece and compare it to other. Of course horsepower is something worth talking about. But mainly when drinking beer with you friends

    AM

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    Nick_Athens said:
    I disagree. Porsche just changed Target group.. They dont care about performance So much anymore just to make sales-profits. They care about safety and how to make easy driven cars by medium experienced drivers. (in order to make more sales) I can see that Bmw - Mercedes is a bigger competitor now for Porsche than Lambo - Ferrari



    They did not change their target group with intent... They have inadequate technology to cope with their changing competitive environment. They are inable to offer leading performance. What can they do now???

    Their answer: Talking BS like "only car for track use", "new target groups" etc. etc. Fact is: their cars are no longer fast enough.

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already

    Re: GT2 ?

    Their only impressive product right now imo is the gt3. W/o that they are just slapping turbo's on what seems the same old engines. Ferrari/lambo are currently way ahead in making power reliably from N/A engines and also in F1 style gearbox technology.

    Maybe things will begin to change in the near future with DI. Their whole line-up is also lacking in luxury compared to merc, am, and F. They should have plowed some of their billions into more value for their customers in terms of tech and finish.

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already




    Re: GT2 ?

    MKSGR,

    IMHO Porsche got it right. Why ? I am not a GT2 guy (I'm a turbo guy), but my understanding from several GT2 owners I know is that they have NEVER been at a disadvantage in street driving. Most GT2/Turbo owners do NOT track their cars here in the US (that is a fabulous misnomer). The horsepower disadvantage your fretting about is truly meaningless in the real world of street driving). If you only care about numbers (hp, 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, etc.) then Porsche said goodbye to you long ago. The modern buyer is typified by people like me. My new 997TT, fully optioned, will cost about $150K (w/o tax). I will NEVER track the car! I will drive it daily. I will drive it in the winter (yes in snow). I will also drive my wife and daughters around in it (I can only fit 3 of the 4 so I try to get rid of my wife). I will mercilessly flog the car on a daily basis. However, I really don't care if its the lightest, fastest or prettiest. To me, these cars are workhorses, pure and simple. F430, Gallardo, blah, blah - I respectfully request you try putting 10K-12K miles per year on those cars and get back to me. Before I had my first turbo I spoke at length with Gianni at LI Ferrari about getting a 360 (around 2001). The end result was even he recommended the turbo for my sort of daily drive/lifestyle. So, with all due respect, I think Porsche did get it right. Maybe the real GT2 new car buyers know what they want, maybe Porsche knows what they want and maybe Porsche isn't as dumb as you think. Time will tell .... In any event, I am truly sincerely dumbfounded as to how any of us could possibly use all of the abilities of a stock turbo let alone a GT2.

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    tortesq1 said:
    MKSGR,

    IMHO Porsche got it right. Why ? I am not a GT2 guy (I'm a turbo guy), but my understanding from several GT2 owners I know is that they have NEVER been at a disadvantage in street driving. Most GT2/Turbo owners do NOT track their cars here in the US (that is a fabulous misnomer). The horsepower disadvantage your fretting about is truly meaningless in the real world of street driving). If you only care about numbers (hp, 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, etc.) then Porsche said goodbye to you long ago. The modern buyer is typified by people like me. My new 997TT, fully optioned, will cost about $150K (w/o tax). I will NEVER track the car! I will drive it daily. I will drive it in the winter (yes in snow). I will also drive my wife and daughters around in it (I can only fit 3 of the 4 so I try to get rid of my wife). I will mercilessly flog the car on a daily basis. However, I really don't care if its the lightest, fastest or prettiest. To me, these cars are workhorses, pure and simple. F430, Gallardo, blah, blah - I respectfully request you try putting 10K-12K miles per year on those cars and get back to me. Before I had my first turbo I spoke at length with Gianni at LI Ferrari about getting a 360 (around 2001). The end result was even he recommended the turbo for my sort of daily drive/lifestyle. So, with all due respect, I think Porsche did get it right. Maybe the real GT2 new car buyers know what they want, maybe Porsche knows what they want and maybe Porsche isn't as dumb as you think. Time will tell .... In any event, I am truly sincerely dumbfounded as to how any of us could possibly use all of the abilities of a stock turbo let alone a GT2.



    I can understand your reasoning from a US customer pespective.

    However, in Germany power differences can indeed be noticed in day-to-day traffic situations (Autobahn). That's why some of us complain about the lack of hp in case of the 997TT...

    Also, you pay $150k for a fully equipped 997TT. This equals Euro 115k (plus taxes). In Germany, a fully equipped 997TT costs around Euro 165k (incl. 19% VAT). Of course, customers tend to get more critical the higher the price... My impression is that the 997TT (at German MSRP) is priced fairly high while the performance does only match the minimum requirements. Not more.

    As far as your daily workhorse concept is concerned I agree to a certain extent. Indeed, Porsche has some substantial advantages in that regard. However, you probably agree that most 997TT buyers use other cars in the situations where you plan to use your 997TT. My last 996TT for example was never fitted with winter tires. Simply beacause winter tires destroy 50% of the driving experience (plus they limit the maximum speed to 240kph, which is a major disadvantage on long-distance travels in a car like the TT). In snow, bad wheather etc. I use a different car which is better suited to such an environment. My argument here is that Porsche will face serious problems if they focus on people who use their TT as an all-wheater vehicle. This buyer group is probably rather small.

    I agree that the 997TT is a great car. The GT2 will also be a great car. However, both cars are on par with many competitors. They no longer have a competitive advantage. That is the new (and unfavorable) situation

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already



    Markus,

    I would think you (as am I) are an excellent potential 911Turbo tuner car guy, be it a RUF or purely modded Porsche 911Turbo. Surely there is reasonable quality even if warranty coverage is threatened/lost, but for this price range, actual full warranty coverage is less critical. The Sportec SPR1 sounds like fun if not the RUF RT12....

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already



    Markus,

    I would think you (as am I) are an excellent potential 911Turbo tuner car guy, be it a RUF or purely modded Porsche 911Turbo. Surely there is reasonable quality even if warranty coverage is threatened/lost, but for this price range, actual full warranty coverage is less critical. The Sportec SPR1 sounds like fun if not the RUF RT12....



    Agreed However, I will try the Italian alternatives first

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already



    Markus,

    I would think you (as am I) are an excellent potential 911Turbo tuner car guy, be it a RUF or purely modded Porsche 911Turbo. Surely there is reasonable quality even if warranty coverage is threatened/lost, but for this price range, actual full warranty coverage is less critical. The Sportec SPR1 sounds like fun if not the RUF RT12....



    Agreed However, I will try the Italian alternatives first



    Very good!

    Let us hear your verdict ASAP.

    Re: GT2 ?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    Markus,

    despite the horsepower inflation of the competitors Porsche has the best Sport Auto Supertest values.

    AM



    I am really concerned about Porsche. You mention the Supertest:

    - 997GT3: no significant improvement over 996GT3 Mk2
    - GT3RS: Not faster than 997GT3
    - 997TT: Supertest not published yet (for obvious reason: bad test results, no major improvement over 996TTSx50 unless the 997TT comes with sport tires); Gallardo still faster + race version of Gallardo introduced in Geneva
    - F430CS to be launched shortly; successor of F430 in less than 2 years
    - Z06 faster in various categories; new version with more hp ahead
    - LP640 and 599GTB much faster than 997TT and GT2
    - etc. etc.

    Porsche does live a lot from historical achievements. Their current product portfolio has lost its competitive advantage



    I too am concerned about Porsche's marketing strategy, but agree with Nick that this is more an intentional strategy than an inability to compete in the supercar/luxury class. They are currently the most profitable (per vehicle) car manufacturer in the world, so from their perspective, they are successful. They may be a "failure" from our perspective (performance), but they don't seem to share our expectations.



    In a certain way you are right: I, for example, am no longer a Porsche customer. So why should they care They lost me already



    Markus,

    I would think you (as am I) are an excellent potential 911Turbo tuner car guy, be it a RUF or purely modded Porsche 911Turbo. Surely there is reasonable quality even if warranty coverage is threatened/lost, but for this price range, actual full warranty coverage is less critical. The Sportec SPR1 sounds like fun if not the RUF RT12....



    Agreed However, I will try the Italian alternatives first



    Okay, but remember, you can date an Italian, but should marry only a German.

     
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