Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Toby, don't claim to be right, just sharing some thoughts. If you want, I will discuss the specifics later, like why heim joint components & B16 Damptronic are not necessarily a good idea for GT2 (B16 is a mid level coilover with non-independent bump/rebound rate; I wonder why anyone would say it is "better" than the GT2 stock's coilover Smiley).

    Why I don't think it's a good idea to touch GT2/GT3 suspension, and Turbo vs. GT2: On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being ride comfort and 10 being handling performance, the Turbo would be say a 4, a comfortable daily driver, while the GT2, essentially a streetable track car, get a 9. At the Turbo's lower level, it's hard not to improve, "stiffer and lower" is it. OTOH, at the exalted level of the GT2, a car made to show case Porsche's best, almost anything you do will most likely cause a compromise. This is where people such as Marc Lieb and Rohrl prove their worth and reputation, with the likes of Ferrari, and I am sure even Porsche directors, breathing down their neck, how do you improve on the best that they have to offer? Essentially, if you are at a soft level (Turbo), it's a simple matter to go up, but if you are already at the top, much more likely to go down.

    Criteria - track testing: If you are tuning for comfort, I have nothing further to add. However if you are tuning for better handling performance, anything anyone does to the suspension of a GT class Porsche, if you want to be sure, will have to be track time proven. It's not enough just to have someone drive around and give approval at this high level. Take it to the track and prove to your satisfaction that lap time improves, otherwise result is very suspicious. Not a perfect test always, but the most reasonable there is. And if you do that, I am almost certain that you'll find it's not going to be easy improving GT2's track time; definitely may even go down.

    Suspension as a package - GT2 level: Of course Porsche engineers spend much much time to fine tune every minute detail about the GT2's handling. Spring rate, dampening's rate, ride height, sway bar, tire; there are several components/factors and they all interact. So the test driver would give inputs, engineers make the change, test driver would retest with lap time as a majore criteria, etc., the process repeated over and over until for example they get that 7:18 from the GT2 RS, and in the end you have a package of components that cannot be easily changed without adverse result.
    As an example, the change to GT2 RS, as you already know: wider front track by some (?) 12mm, lower by (?) 6mm, changed toe angle, firmer spring (don't know rate, believe it's changed to linear, but not sure), possible rose/heim joint in some component - the whole thing is changed as a system. You would not produce same result by merely widening the front track of your car, etc., because it's a lot more complicated that that.
    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Caanga you really idolise the work of Porsche engineers and I don't blame you for that. BUT;

    You need to remember that P like any manufacturer has to comply with many regulations and cater to the needs of a wide range of markets, roads, climate conditions and ... driver skills. 

    Regarding the suspension, if you check what most GT2/ GT3 etc track users were doing for the last 4 years (myself included) was to effectively take components from P motorsport or other AM suppliers and improve the suspension of all the GT models. Now if you also ask around you ll see that it is documented that you can actually improve handling (and track times) considerably even on a GT2 or GT3. Now come 2010 Porsche decided to actually include some of these parts on a new model called GT2RS! The trick of course is to optimise handling without completely killing everyday driving ability. I personally experimented for over 2 years, changed back and forth components until i found the perfect compromise for me between handling and NVH. And it is considerably faster that any GT model included the GT2RS on a track according to my tuner that test drove it back to back with (their own) race prepared GT2s. 

    Regarding the engine I have gone the same path with Toby and I discovered all of the things that he is trying to explain first hand. ie. by spending the $$$ to get it right to nth time lol!

    You can't get more than around 650hp-670hp with proper thermal efficiency to accelerate hard (i.e. beyond 60-130 runs blah blah) if you don't substantially modify the engine. The US tuners can provide packages with higher quoted power figures but trust me they fall off a cliff beyond 200-220 km/hr where the limitations of the VTGs etc start to show. Again, we can all read as many magazines as we want but unless you try (and fail) yourself it is difficult to understand where the truth lies. 

    For the record this is a video of how 740hp 950NM (european hp) accelerates up to 300kms+.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msLPtGaKoHA

    This engine has almost all possible improvements (engine blueprint, cams, ported heads, flaps etc etc) while maintaining full VTG factory setup to make that power until such high speeds while maintaining near stock drivability (or better actually). And it cost $$$ and >100 hrs on dyne to tune. And still I believe on race conditions it would lose 50-80hp after 10 laps. Do you really think US tuners can do better than that with just external mods? Me not think so

     


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Cann

    I think a fundamental difference between us is you seem to trust what Porsche tell you whereas  through experience I simply don't and like to look at lots of info and data and opinion and then come to my own conclusion....

    Re the Blistein Damptronics for my GT2.

    Firstly I look at what the 997GT2 came with, at the rear a single spring non linear (or looks like it) damper with Bilstein technology

    I then look what they did with the GT2RS and (with the emphasis on how much weight is saves) they tell us that they are using a shocker with a dual spring set up on the rear axle (labelling the original 997GT2 single spring set as "long and heavy") - which funnily enough is just what Bilstein will sell me on their Damptronic kit

     

    Blistein invented Damptronics AFAIK and they sold the system to Porsche so IMO Bilstein are well placed to make a superior shock using this Technology without the budget constraints which come with supplying "the most profitable car manufacturer in the world" so when I see an advert which was widely run in the specialist mags of a georgeous 997GT2 in GT Silver (just like mine ) with blurb telling me their specialist engineers who worked with Porsche to design the OEM system are now offering an alternative which has been honed on the ring by WR....... I'm afraid I suck up that Kool Aid - I'd like to know why you seem to think the Billys are inferior cos  I believe Bilstein

    Oh and my information on your 12mm lower  Kool Aid is contradictory

     


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    I am a big fan of all Porsche and love GT cars. But I have to go with the Brits on this one  Porsche is selling stories to Joe public. Whether it is a GT2 RS or GT3RS 4.0 they are cars which need to make a profit and be useable to a wide range of drivers and circumstances.

    I am sure Preuninger could build the "range topper" if the accountants would let him do it. Then the cars would have some really trick parts and bestoked to the core.

    Until then P build the best "mass market" cars around. The likes of RS and Manthey and even the Weissach are left to add true track flavour...

    Last car build to lose real money was the "959" and even that had a lot of VW parts...

     

    So I admire GT and TB993TT - they have great bespoked cars, taking a great base and making it way better. For me the "normal" GT cars would suffice, perhaps improving the suspension. But each to their own dreams


    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    The concept of modding a Porsche is not wrong. What is wrong is a lack of direction of this particular car, and proof. Let me re-emphasize: if the goal of this GT2 is to be more comfortable, I have nothing further to add. Owner is happy = bottom line. However if the goal is to improve performance, then the proof is sadly lacking. What is created in my opinion is, I am afraid, a modding by adding whatever components that on paper sound better, without consideration for a systemic approach, in the process creating a GT2's suspension that is Frankenstein like in that it's going in puzzlingly different directions (street tire, heim joint-I'll talk about this later, Bilstein).

    One also must make a distinction between the areas of modding; not all the same.
    Engine mod: There are limitations to what Porsche could do: catalyst, noise, pollution, not scaring Turbo buyers off with 700 hp rating, etc. A tuner has distinct advantage because these are not his considerations.
    Turbo's suspension: The limitations here is stated goal of the car's: a comfortable daily driver. Very easy to remove comfort and improve performance because there is huge grey zone of exactly how much comfort one needs.
    GT-2 suspension: Very very little limitations here! This car has one mission in life: Beat the **** out of Ferrari, and GTR, and Corvette. As I have said: there is PAG's pride and money at stake here. Don't expect any improvement in this area unless you're ready for total systematic change to the car, as a system done by pro driver, with proof.
     

     

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    For Toby re. question about Bilstein: Whoever told you B16 Damptronic is an improvement over GT2's stock need to explain to you the precise reasons why he thinks that is the case: construction, spring rate, dampening rate, what? I have yet to know any tuner who says that. In addition, who says that it has more expensive components than GT2's stock unit? Serious racing-team based tuners go to Moton, if anything at all, for GT2/GT3 class (but even this, is not necessarily an improvement!). If you call Bilstein, they themselves would tell you that their "better" components are the MDS series. B16 is great, but there are certain hints to why it's not even Bilstein's best. Let me just touch on the most obvious,dampening adjustment.

    Bump and rebound adjustment: One sign to look for. In an advanced-level coilover, the bump and rebound dampening rates are adjusted independently. In even more advanced coilover there are independent low speed (speed of coilover's shaft - not the car) / high speed dampening adjustments. This is critical because it's how how tuners fine tune understeer/oversteer behavior of car in corners. Also, dampening rates are also critical to adjust car for comfort, or performance. The Bilstein B16 provides none of this; Bilstein's more advanced MDS series does, so do a number of other coilovers such as JRZ, Moton.
    Progressive vs. linear: While linear spring could provide a more linear response, the harm is that it could make the car feels jumpy and less supple (exactly what you were hoping to retain). I used to think linear spring as the *only* way, until I was told it has been used in racing cars. A change to linear spring alone does NOT necessarily make the car faster - it all depends on the particular implementation. Just because the GT2 RS has linear spring does NOT mean a linear spring is "better" in your GT2. There are several changes between the 2 cars.

    In the Turbo with so much compromise in handling for comfort , B16 does wonders because it:
    1. Lowers the car.
    2. Stiffens the spring.
    3. Gives better matching of dampening force with spring.
    In the GT2, exactly which of the above is critical to "improving" the car? And where is the proof? A move to B16 is at best a lateral move, at worst hurting the finely tuned balance. A move to Moton possibly improves tract time but essentially removes street-ability. Suspension tuning is BLACK ARTS and not something to fool with at the exalted level of GT2. You have a great car - unless you have proof, leave the suspension alone.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Caanga the gt2 and even the rs still have components that introduce slack during cornering. Ie the upper control arms and the thrust bushings etc distort the geometry of the suspension under load. P has been progressively eliminating all those bushings progressively from the turbo to the gt2rs and gt3 rs 4.0. It is all mix and match by Porsche. The gt2 feels soft and leans way too much under hard cornering. It is not so difficult to improve on that..

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 1/28/22 12:18 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    517818 1295
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 1/22/22 9:42 PM
    Enmanuel
    187715 1158
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 1/9/22 7:08 PM
    Wonderbar
    75895 401
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 1/22/22 12:34 AM
    watt
    74238 761
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 1/3/22 7:55 AM
    Rossi
    56696 531
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    50805 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    14153 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 1/15/22 10:41 PM
    watt
    1264 1
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    478117 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    393794 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    388961 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    354615 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 1/28/22 3:10 PM
    Grant
    325947 2654
    Porsche 992 GT3 1/26/22 4:50 PM
    BiTurbo
    297574 3321
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    258005 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    170361 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    121787 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    106114 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/22/21 7:10 PM
    Topspeed
    98081 1246
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    84046 209
    AMG AMG GT R 1/12/22 6:30 PM
    CGX car nut
    77084 828
    Lambo Aventador and SV 1/14/22 2:22 AM
    BiTurbo
    76822 699
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 1/29/22 12:23 AM
    CGX car nut
    57921 1442
    Others Bugatti Chiron 1/13/22 11:07 PM
    kudryavchik
    45619 507
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 1/8/22 5:39 PM
    kudryavchik
    44141 1574
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 12/15/21 8:04 PM
    Topspeed
    42784 533
    Porsche GT4RS 1/23/22 1:51 PM
    GnilM
    42460 740
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31963 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28602 370
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 7/21/21 6:22 PM
    Topspeed
    27849 592
    247 items found, displaying 1 to 30.