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    Re: Ferrari fire

    It was a short tunnel or underpass on the Toll Roads. I believe he was going northbound on the 261.

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    all the data i have so far shew CS brakes doing well in heavy track use. the way to find out: stephen buy one!!!




    Am I really unqualified to post anything about the Ferrari unless I own and drive one? Must I jump off a cliff before I am allowed to declare that it hurts when you land??

    With due respect Watt, I was clear as to the nature of the information I provided. I labelled that which was second-hand as second-hand and I was clear that my observations of one of the Stradale Challenge cars was of a car that I did not own. But the fact that they weren't firsthand impressions or that I wasn't the owner of the car who's brakes I was inspecting, does that mean that the information is without value and that I am not entitled to post??

    I think I'm going to keep on doing what I have been doing al along which is to add to the conversation where I can and try to be very exacting with the information I bring to the table.

    I think that policy has been proved out on the PCCB issue where I was one of the very first to publicly raise the alarm. I think that my comments turned out to be quite a service to the Porsche community. Many people saved lots of money and aggravation by not buying PCCB's for their particular intended use based upon the information I provided. PAG and its affiliates (including your personal "Deep Throat" within PCNA) were ultimately shown to have been providing misinformation. What I said made a difference. I'm proud of that.

    Stephen



    for God's sakes bone head, you missed my point which was you put serious use on brakes and could prove F brakes... right or wrong, so relax... and party down

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    Quote:
    PF said:
    @watt: What are doing with "40 porsches in the last 21 years"?
    Every 6 months a new car!?



    yes, e.g., my last slate grey GT2 came in March and left in JUne, last GT3 came in NOvember left in March.... and on and on... etc

    one example of P's loss from not racing:

    the PCCB issue. Ferrari is having no problems with their CCB, but they have forged their knowledge in years of F1 brake development.

    P has little?/no racing experience with PCCB, so untold development did NOT occur, as it used to when P was racing. all that development and engr. skill went into the truck... and is lost for all time in terms of foregone sports car development. choices have been made that irrefutably lessen the capability of future sports cars...


    you can say what you want,but please do not compare reliability of porsche with ferrari,its like comparing reliability of dacia with bmw...as an example porsche will never manufacture a clutch for f1 gearbox that will need to be replaced every 7000 to 10000 km.depending on driving style,thats not even concievable with the company's standards.

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Seems that P is really pushing the new & improved PCCB hard...now standard on 996TTS and on 997S launch cars. Has anyone heard P's claims on what makes PCCB 2.0 better than ever? Are PCCBs fully warranty-covered for non-track use....or are owners potentially facing some $15-20K replacement bills, where failed/worn PCCBs are viewed as normal wear and tear by P?



    I can second that the new PCCB is A LOT better than the previous one. I'm using a set of the new ones that come with the 997 on my trackday car (just the front rotors). After doing roughly 1500 km on the track (no street use) the rotors look like new and the pads at the front axle are 60% gone. I installed the green P50 (front) and P40 (rear) pads.

    Cheers
    Thomas

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    watt said:
    for God's sakes bone head, you missed my point which was you put serious use on brakes and could prove F brakes... right or wrong, so relax... and party down



    Hahahaha ... ok Watt.

    Of course, there is another obvious solution. Why not just let me borrow yours for a little while ??? I'm sure we could have that thing sorted in no time at all!!

    Stephen

    Re: Ferrari fire

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:

    Stephen



    the accident you refer to is very thoroughly discussed on Ferrarichat.com apparently they lost two of their members who were very close with the other members, very sad.

    i believe the car was a red 360 spider.



    moogle,

    do you have a link for that - that has to be another accident as the guy survived the one i mentioned

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    stephen,

    here is interesting commentary from my un-named but trusted RS pal on his rotor issue - seems they're not shot yet, but note his comments on the CS brakes:

    "The car has been back to PCGB to have the pads changed (they had started to break up) and we now have a second opinion on the state of the disks.

    They have not cracked (yet) but are very heavily scored, they think there is another 3-4K miles in them before they will have to be replaced

    In answer to your questions

    - I do a warm up lap to get temprature into the disks and tyres

    - Do maximum of 10 laps (tyres start to go by this time) and then a cool down lap without braking (if possible) Car is then left to stand until the disks are cool enough to touch (usually about a piss and a coke time)

    -Always take the car back the the OPC after every event and they clean out the holes whilst it is on the ramps.

    - I was tempted to play with pads but decided to stick with the OEM fitment, I think they are yellow.

    What is of interest is I drove 3 legged Donkey CS today and have to say that the ceramic technology of the Rarri is streets ahead of the Porsche product.

    Apaprently the disks are the same ones used on the Enzo, either way if you could get the Rarri disks on my RS I could take anotehr 2-3 seconds a lap from my track time! Awsome!!"

    also, some one asked again above if P covers track use, "all bets are off at the track" is the factory policy now quoting the P spokesman. F DOES COVER TRACK USE.

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    seems a bit ridiculous that he feels he could take time off just by using other rotors that he tested on another car that weighs 300lbs less. What is that comment based on?

    Anyway, stopping performance really isn't the issue here. The issue is longevity and as a corollary, overall costs vs. steel. The answer is that Porsche needs to get the cost down on replacement rotors and then PCCB will clearly be the better choice.

    Re: Ferrari fire

    Quote:
    watt said:
    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:

    Stephen



    the accident you refer to is very thoroughly discussed on Ferrarichat.com apparently they lost two of their members who were very close with the other members, very sad.

    i believe the car was a red 360 spider.



    moogle,

    do you have a link for that - that has to be another accident as the guy survived the one i mentioned



    Watt,
    F-chat also has thread related to Enzo post-collision fire in Houston (on one of Hou's rare curvy roads). Guy survived (largely unharmed), was actually son of a billionaire plaintiff's lawyer. Surprisingly, daddy was rumored to be buying son another Enzo to replace broken toy (and obtained CGT for boy in interim as a "loaner" car)......I'll let you decide for yourself if that's amazing brand loyalty, stupidity, or some combination.... But key is it sounds like even the king of "race-derived" F's, the Enzo, may have this post-collision fire risk, not just the "entry-level" 360 BTW, the Chairman of rennteam's F Anti-Defamation League has been uncharacteristically silent on the whole F post-collision fire "issue"......

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Oh no, not again this crap.

    Every time somebody sells a Porsche and goes for something else (usually Ferrari and Lamborghini), I hear the same story.
    People who went from Ferrari to Porsche do the same and I blame them too.

    A few points (because I really don't want to write a 200 pages book about it again):
    1. real sports car lovers should have a Porsche AND a Ferrari in their garage
    2. a Porsche is NOT a Ferrari and vice versa
    3. Porsche drivers enjoy the technical side of their car, Ferrari drivers usually the emotional part
    4. 996 TT beats the 360 Modena easily, the 360 Challenge Stradale stands no chance against a GT3 MK2 or GT2 (hi Watts)
    5. while 996 TT owners usually invest a lot of money in technical mods, the most beloved mod on the 360 Modena seems to be a louder exhaust
    6. of course a car which is built in VERY limited numbers like a Ferrari is more spectacular than a Porsche. Drive a Trabant in the US and I bet people would not even look at a Ferrari standing next by
    7. Ferrari cars are no lightweight, I'm really astounded to read comments about Porsche cars gaining weight, this includes the Lotus/Smart hype in the US right now, finally they get to drive cars which look fast and feel fast but don't have to be fast. We Europeans already learned our lesson...
    8. a Ferrari is a Fiat. A Fiat is probably the worst car one can buy in Europe, remember the Yugo reputation in the US? So I really don't understand the comments of some people regarding VW's involvement with Porsche. VW builds better cars than Opel in Germany and Opel is GM. Not to forget that almost every Audi shares parts a lot of parts with VW.
    9. ask a psychologist and he can tell you that this is a very common behaviour that people always defend what they own. This is actually MY strongpoint because no matter what car I own or drive, I say what I'm thinking.
    10. as much as I love Porsche and other sports cars, as much as I'm an atheist and don't believe in any gods, I would NEVER add comments to my posts like comparing god (which is very important to many people worldwide, no matter if he's called God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddah or whatever) to a car.

    I think that every person has the right to stick to his opinion but I remember watts (check his posts a few months ago) to be a very enthusiastic Porsche driver.
    Which starts to confirm my personal experience and the experience from many friends I have: a Porsche is a driving machine, only a few people are capable to drive it at it's limits. A Ferrari is a posing machine, it looks fast, it is fast but owners usually care more about the look and feel.

    This is why I get back to point 1: own both, a Porsche and a Ferrari to be happy but spare us with this constant Porsche vs. Ferrari and Ferrari vs. Porsche crap. Period.

    Re: Ferrari fire

    I think that enzo is this one. from www.wreckedexotics.com.
    The "guy"driving the enzo was son of a billionaire of USA(I think) (anybody correct me if its wrong).
    What a pictue........

    Re: Ferrari fire

    front

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Totally, totally agree. I own 2 x P, 1 x F and 2 x L and I'm very happy. As well I don't contemplate selling any of them, but hope to add more in the future.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Damn, I couldn't resist getting in on this discussion. RC, for the most part, I am in absolute agreement with your post. My comments are coming from the perspective of being fortunate to have the following automobiles in my life at this time - 2003 SL 55, 2004 Lamborghini Gallardo (e-gear), 2004 Lamborghini Murcielago(e-gear), a Ferrari Challange Stradale, and a 2004 Porsche Carrera GT. My daily driver, an '03 Mercedes CL600 will be replaced shortly by an '05 CL 65, which has just arrived at the port in Los Angeles. The SL 55 will be replaced with an Aston-Martin DB 9 by the end of the year. Each of the non-daily driver cars are very unique and special. Each is different, each creates a different driving experience, one isn't better or worse than the other overall, just different, each having strengths in certain areas and weakness in other areas. All, with the exception of the SL 55, are fantastic cars on the track for the person, like myself, who goes to the track to have a fun experience, not really caring whether I lap Infineon in over 2 minutes or not. Each has different strengths and weakness on the track, but trust me, each is a lot of fun to have and enjoy in that enviornment. As far as street use, the least useable by far is the Carrera GT. My earlier posts certainly have covered that subject. The other cars are very useable as a substitute for my daily driver when I choose to do so. The CGT is in a category of it's own - hard to compare with other cars. It's performance is phenominal, the quality of construction is superb, it is so solid, and all around it is so exceptional. I am, of course, not able to compare the CGT to the Enzo. I was not amongst those fortunate few who were selected by the Ferrari factory to own such a car. If I had been, then there would certainly be an Enzo in my garage.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    RC said:

    1. real sports car lovers should have a Porsche AND a Ferrari in their garage




    I agree. Hopefully some day I would add in the garage a nice 430 Modena Spider

    A general question for all. How would you define a sportscar?

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    Larry B said:... being fortunate to have the following automobiles in my life at this time - 2003 SL 55, 2004 Lamborghini Gallardo (e-gear), 2004 Lamborghini Murcielago(e-gear), a Ferrari Challange Stradale, and a 2004 Porsche Carrera GT. My daily driver, an '03 Mercedes CL600 will be replaced shortly by an '05 CL 65, which has just arrived at the port in Los Angeles. The SL 55 will be replaced with an Aston-Martin DB 9 by the end of the year.



    Not bad... just do not get involved in a crash in any of your Italian machines. Keep those in the garage or parked at the club and drive the germans.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    RC said:
    ...

    1. real sports car lovers should have a Porsche AND a Ferrari in their garage

    ...



    Well, I certainly believe that you could have one single brand also - depends on what you're looking for.

    I would like to know if Watt would still drive Porsche if they would build the cars how he would like them to have...

    Re: Ferrari fire

    For more pictures www.crash-sportwagen.de

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I would like add a little something to this discusion. Porsches line up of cars in the US is full of true sports cars. The 485hp GT2, the 380hp GT3, the 605hp Carrera GT, the 414hp 911 Turbo, and the less powerful but still fun Boxster line up. Porsche dosen't have a suger daddy like Ferrari, Lamborghini and others. Give them some time. If they don't get back into factory backed racing, let's buycot.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:


    A general question for all. How would you define a sportscar?



    This is an excellent question. I think a sportscar will be oriented mostly toward spirited driving both on and off the track with an emphasis on driver enjoyment and performance. It must be still usable on the road so that it's not a complete pain to take a weekend trip in, this differentiates it from a pure track machine like a radical. However, it should have a few annoying points and be somewhat of a bother on long trips (in a way that adds to the experience and makes it more special and exciting... to explain further, I'd like the trip, but maybe someone who doesn't understand high performance cars would prefer I take another car) because otherwise too many compromises were made for comfort and you'd have a GT.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:


    A general question for all. How would you define a sportscar?



    This is an excellent question. I think a sportscar will be oriented mostly toward spirited driving both on and off the track with an emphasis on driver enjoyment and performance. It must be still usable on the road so that it's not a complete pain to take a weekend trip in, this differentiates it from a pure track machine like a radical. However, it should have a few annoying points and be somewhat of a bother on long trips (in a way that adds to the experience and makes it more special and exciting... to explain further, I'd like the trip, but maybe someone who doesn't understand high performance cars would prefer I take another car) because otherwise too many compromises were made for comfort and you'd have a GT.



    by your definition, Porsche make 2 sports cars: the gt3/RS and the CGT. My point is a lighter gt2/3 would place them in the sports car definition and less GT.

    My only mod. to your definition would be: strike "annoying points" and replace with "omits luxury standard items and allows omission of options which add substantial weight". GT customers do find that annoying, but others do not.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    by your definition, Porsche make 2 sports cars: the gt3/RS and the CGT. My point is a lighter gt2/3 would place them in the sports car definition and less GT.

    My only mod. to your definition would be: strike "annoying points" and replace with "omits luxury standard items and allows omission of options which add substantial weight". GT customers do find that annoying, but others do not.



    I agree with the points you make here. Jay Leno loves old British cars for their quirks. I wasn't trying to refer to quirks, I applaud Porsche's technological perfection, however I was referring to a lack of luxury items, as you've mentioned. Who needs sound deadening?

    Did you know that the newest Subaru Forester is lighter than the previous model yet has increased luxury and safety. This five seat small SUV at 3081 pounds now weighs less than the new 911. I know that this is an apples and oranges comparison, but I think this is a shame. 911s used to be very light weight pure sports cars and I don't think anything would be wrong with drawing the line somewhere, however arbitrary. Let's say that a new sports car came out this year that caught everyone's attention, performed well and was a joy to drive at 3000 pounds. Then in 5 years they updated the beloved car and it weighed 3930 pounds. There would be an outcry. Some would say it wasn't the same car. It certainly wouldn't drive the same. Well in the early seventies, 911s weighed around 2350 pounds. 3081 pounds is the same percentage increase as the above example, but it's accepted because other sports cars are as heavy and the weight was put on more gradually. Would it really be that hard to keep all future 911 iterations under 3000 pounds (even with the luxury)? What about just keeping the normally aspirated models under that weight?

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    [My point is a lighter gt2/3 would place them in the sports car definition and less GT.



    I don't see a problem with GT2/GT3 weight. Most customers can't drive these "heavy" babies to the limit, so why reduce weight and make it even harder for them?

    Weight is very important for track racing. If I have to do 15-20 track rounds, I would worry about weight. But for street driving and a few rounds on the track, weight plays a second role only. Look at the Cayenne Turbo and even more impressive: check the new 997 Carrera S which achieves practically the same track time on the Nuerburgring Nordschleife as the Challenge Stradale without semi-slicks. Now please explain, how is that possible with a car which weighs 100 kg more and has 70 HP less power?

    watt, I learned a lot of things in my past about cars and if a car isn't fast enough, it usually isn't the car.
    If you think less weight and an italian stallion make you a better driver, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you.
    This whole discussion "Porsche no longer a sportscar" is not only ridiculous but also pretty funny now.

    Greetings from somebody who (sometimes) knows what he's talking about.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    A quick lap time in spite of weight is not what sports cars are about. There have been reviews comparing the GT3 and the original Carrera RS that praise the GT3 but do state that the extra weight is felt with every turn and every throttle and brake input. The 997 S performance is an accomplishment, but a better sports car would combine the technical achievements responsible for that performance with lighter weight for even better lap times and more importantly a car that is more involving to drive. You can rant and rave about Cayenne lap times and I am also impressed by that achievement, but no one would call it a "driver's car," no matter how fast it is.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    A quick lap time in spite of weight is not what sports cars are about. There have been reviews comparing the GT3 and the original Carrera RS that praise the GT3 but do state that the extra weight is felt with every turn and every throttle and brake input. The 997 S performance is an accomplishment, but a better sports car would combine the technical achievements responsible for that performance with lighter weight for even better lap times and more importantly a car that is more involving to drive. You can rant and rave about Cayenne lap times and I am also impressed by that achievement, but no one would call it a "driver's car," no matter how fast it is.




    Well said . I tend to think of Cayenne Turbo sort of like SL55...each is great at what it does, but ultimately weight is hard to disguise despite brilliant engineering and electronics. For maximum fun on backroads, I bet lighter, well-engineered cars win the day. Unfortunately, 996TTS is heading in direction of SL55 weight and the wonderfully light and smile-inducing 360CS is weak in safety engineering/systems (post-collision fire issues and lack of side/head airbags).....hopefully P can eliminate some excess weight out of 997TTS without compromising its excellent safety attributes:!

    Safety design decision clinches it...

    Quote:
    VKSF said:... and the wonderfully light and smile-inducing 360CS is weak in safety engineering/systems (post-collision fire issues and lack of side/head airbags).....hopefully P can eliminate some excess weight out of 997TTS without compromising its excellent safety attributes:!



    I think that you nailed it head on. The reason 911s have gained weight has most to do with safety and collision survival design requirements. I will live with those decisions any day. Safety is NOT an attribute of the italian cars - thanks, but no thanks. Indeed, there's no free lunch. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

    I agree with RC when he says "...This whole discussion "Porsche no longer a sportscar" is not only ridiculous but also pretty funny now..." Indeed!

    Re: Safety design decision clinches it...

    Really?
    Well how come a Supercup car weighs only about 1100 kg?
    Are they unsafe because they don't have all that air bag crap? I would much prefer to be strapped into a racing harness and have a welded cage, then a 3 pt inertia belt and a bunch of air bags.

    Re: Safety design decision clinches it...

    DJD: we are talking civilized daily drivers, not racing steel shells. Incidentally, you can gut the car if you would like - it's up to you. Let's be reasonable - the base 911 is pretty reasonable - now people load them w/ plastic seat fascias, all kinds of fake wood crap, Bose speakers and they complain...

    The street car may have collision requiremenst that the super cup lacks. The street 911 survives front collisions - other cars, namely, 360s and other italians do not.

    Re: Safety design decision clinches it...

    Quote:
    DJD said: Really? Well how come a Supercup car weighs only about 1100 kg? Are they unsafe because they don't have all that air bag crap? I would much prefer to be strapped into a racing harness and have a welded cage, then a 3 pt inertia belt and a bunch of air bags.

    I think they are unsafe unless you were to use all the other safety equipment that was meant to be used on the Supercup cars. We are talking about driving cars on the street. I think that using a racing harness without the helment and head restraint is unsafe. There is no protection for the head and neck if you hit a wall straight on. What good is it if your body is strapped solid but the head is allowed to go forward? At least with airbags, the upper torso and head are cushioned. Then if you get broadsided, where again is the protection for the head? In the US, we have these big SUVs that the first thing they do is try to make contact with the head. At least with side airbags, there is some protection for the head.

    Re: Safety design decision clinches it...

    ADias has got it right. Airbags save lives, period. Think about smacking your head into the windshield or steering-wheel during a crash...it isnt pretty, trust me I've seen it.
    Having said that I also would prefer it if Porsche eliminated weight for their cars. Less weight = better driving experience. But I dont think Porsche is going to give their cars a diet. From their prospective if you want a drivers car you buy a GT3...and most of their other customers want the creature comforts. So are they going to make the 997 Turbo light...definately not, but they should definately consider making another version that is (say 997 Turbo S and for sure the GT2)
    Maybe you dont like if thats the case (and trust me I prefer light cars like the old Carrera RS) but you also have to face reality.

     
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