Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Be glad this won't happen to you.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11317424/

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    Be glad this won't happen to you.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11317424/



    Those people should grab guns and storm the Kremlin. Maybe Vlad would be a bit more receptive after actually fearing for his life.
    Maybe Nick should take this case

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Put someone in jail for no reason is a common thing in russia. What's frightening is that it happens also in our so-called democracies like US for instance (patriot act + gitmo) and in eastern europe (secret prisons for afghans and irakis)

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    Be glad this won't happen to you.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11317424/



    Those people should grab guns and storm the Kremlin. Maybe Vlad would be a bit more receptive after actually fearing for his life.
    Maybe Nick should take this case


    Oh no, you are not going to get him started here too!

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Put someone in jail for no reason is a common thing in russia. What's frightening is that it happens also in our so-called democracies like US for instance (patriot act + gitmo) and in eastern europe (secret prisons for afghans and irakis)



    wtf are you talking about? no reason?

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    dan996 said:
    Be glad this won't happen to you.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11317424/



    Those people should grab guns and storm the Kremlin. Maybe Vlad would be a bit more receptive after actually fearing for his life.
    Maybe Nick should take this case


    Oh no, you are not going to get him started here too!



    Whoops! You're right

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    426h said:
    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Put someone in jail for no reason is a common thing in russia. What's frightening is that it happens also in our so-called democracies like US for instance (patriot act + gitmo) and in eastern europe (secret prisons for afghans and irakis)



    wtf are you talking about? no reason?



    The P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act is being abused and is anything but patriotic. Also, many people who are taken to those prisons are later found to be innocent. Try explaining that to the guy who you've just tortured for 6 months. Great Al-Qaeda recruitment material...

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    That is absolutely ridicules!!!!

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    POR911 said:
    That is absolutely ridicules!!!!



    What do you mean and to who are you saying that?

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    426h said:
    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Put someone in jail for no reason is a common thing in russia. What's frightening is that it happens also in our so-called democracies like US for instance (patriot act + gitmo) and in eastern europe (secret prisons for afghans and irakis)



    wtf are you talking about? no reason?



    What are you trying to say? You're saying that there are reasons why those people can't have a lawyer, can't have access to an independent and impartial court of law and reasons why they don't even know that they are accused of ???

    All that while being in jail for an undeterminate time (or or should I say infinite time).

    Could you tell me what are those reasons

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    As you said:
    "Put someone in jail for no reason"

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Come on guys! It seems like every week there has to be at least one bash America post or thread! I'm not necessarily thin skinned but enough already- this is getting very old. Let's try to stick with discussing cars ( and occasionally cars and women ). I don't see any Americans in this forum doing the same to other countries/ leaders. As I've said before, there is plenty of fault to be found in this world. We could all sit back and take cheap shots! Please don't believe everything you read in the news, and show some consideration to those of us who love our country.

    Peace!

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    I wont tolerate any Anti US propaganda here.

    Consider this a warning.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Amazon --- If the Belgian Army engaged irregular, eg, non uniformed, "franc de tireur" forces in a foreign country, that had used that country as a base to organize the sending of airplanes crashing into the tallest buildings in Brussels, do you really suppose that the Belgian government would treat those foreign combatants each individually as if they were common criminals and accord them the same legal status as Belgians accused of crimes? Or even accord them POW legal status when they were not fighting under any national flag or government authority? And not even vett them before releasing them? Would they free those with
    leadership or special skills to come and attack them again?

    Would the Belgian security forces be negligent in not seeking to question them extensively to obtain any information about their organizational capabalilities, order of battle, command and support locations and the communications and HQ of its leadership? Or are those items that Belgian police and its criminal courts routinely handle?

    And if the Belgian security services were investigating
    stateless organizations planning major attacks on civilian targets in Belgium, do you suppose that the Belgian government would be acting responsibly by arresting only some of them publicly, releasing them on bail and in doing so give warning to their co conspirators so they have time to escape, regroup, modify or activate their operational plans for attacks?

    And would the Belgian security forces be acting responsibly if they did not detain and interrogate suspects linked to irregular hostile forces to learn of any current or future plans for major attacks on Belgian citizens?

    Rather than just slam the USA, enlighten us as to your proposed tactics to deal with transnational terrorism that is stateless and based upon zealous religous convictions that includes viewing civilians as prestige targets of opportunity.




    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazon --- If the Belgian Army engaged irregular, eg, non uniformed, "franc de tireur" forces in a foreign country, that had used that country as a base to organize the sending of airplanes crashing into the tallest buildings in Brussels, do you really suppose that the Belgian government would treat those foreign combatants each individually as if they were common criminals and accord them the same legal status as Belgians accused of crimes? Or even accord them POW legal status when they were not fighting under any national flag or government authority? And not even vett them before releasing them? Would they free those with
    leadership or special skills to come and attack them again?

    Would the Belgian security forces be negligent in not seeking to question them extensively to obtain any information about their organizational capabalilities, order of battle, command and support locations and the communications and HQ of its leadership? Or are those items that Belgian police and its criminal courts routinely handle?

    And if the Belgian security services were investigating
    stateless organizations planning major attacks on civilian targets in Belgium, do you suppose that the Belgian government would be acting responsibly by arresting only some of them publicly, releasing them on bail and in doing so give warning to their co conspirators so they have time to escape, regroup, modify or activate their operational plans for attacks?

    And would the Belgian security forces be acting responsibly if they did not detain and interrogate suspects linked to irregular hostile forces to learn of any current or future plans for major attacks on Belgian citizens?

    Rather than just slam the USA, enlighten us as to your proposed tactics to deal with transnational terrorism that is stateless and based upon zealous religous convictions that includes viewing civilians as prestige targets of opportunity.







    I wasn't just aiming at the US. I also mentionned the secrte prisons in eastern europe, wich were established with the agreement of those gov.

    There aer many innocent people in those prison. I'm wondering if you would keep the same speach if you were one of them or if one of your love ones was being arrested without knowing what are the charges, without the possibility of consulting an attorney,...

    Everyone should have at least the right to defend himself. A democracy without that right is not one.

    That's it. I'm done.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazon --- If the Belgian Army engaged irregular, eg, non uniformed, "franc de tireur" forces in a foreign country, that had used that country as a base to organize the sending of airplanes crashing into the tallest buildings in Brussels, do you really suppose that the Belgian government would treat those foreign combatants each individually as if they were common criminals and accord them the same legal status as Belgians accused of crimes? Or even accord them POW legal status when they were not fighting under any national flag or government authority? And not even vett them before releasing them? Would they free those with
    leadership or special skills to come and attack them again?

    Would the Belgian security forces be negligent in not seeking to question them extensively to obtain any information about their organizational capabalilities, order of battle, command and support locations and the communications and HQ of its leadership? Or are those items that Belgian police and its criminal courts routinely handle?

    And if the Belgian security services were investigating
    stateless organizations planning major attacks on civilian targets in Belgium, do you suppose that the Belgian government would be acting responsibly by arresting only some of them publicly, releasing them on bail and in doing so give warning to their co conspirators so they have time to escape, regroup, modify or activate their operational plans for attacks?

    And would the Belgian security forces be acting responsibly if they did not detain and interrogate suspects linked to irregular hostile forces to learn of any current or future plans for major attacks on Belgian citizens?

    Rather than just slam the USA, enlighten us as to your proposed tactics to deal with transnational terrorism that is stateless and based upon zealous religous convictions that includes viewing civilians as prestige targets of opportunity.







    Jim, I'm not Amazon, but I'll chime in anyway.
    I fully support what you're saying about what the US has done and needs to do (in a sort of Belgian metaphore). I have no problem with "illegal prisons" and torturing people who kill innocents. The only problem that I have is the fact that VERY OFTEN the US forces arrest the wrong people, who have done nothing wrong and then keep them locked down until they establish that they truly aren't a threat.
    However, after spending 6 months in prison, do you think that person will really just go home and pretend nothing happened? No, they'll become extremely anti-American and so will their friends and family, who in many cases were indifferent to the US before an event such as this. This is the case in both Afghanistan and Iraq (although prisoners there are usually released within days).
    Of course mistakes happen, nothing anyone can do about it, but I really believe that the US is shooting itself in the foot with these prisons. When trying to win over the people belonging to the world's arguably most violent religion, who feel so connected to "their fellow Muslims", this isn't the way.
    I don't care what the US does; bomb them, shoot them to pieces, burn them alive with napalm, whatever, nothing is as bad as those third-world religiously-insane sobs seeing their "fellow Muslims" being mistreated.
    As long as they have been proven to be enemy combatants, it's all good and you have good arguments, but most people cringe when they think that innocents are imprisoned in such conditions.
    Like I said, I support the majority of your views and the US is definitely on the right side in this conflict. It just needs to choose its methods better.
    I have received a warning from CF about comments concerning the US policies, but I don't think I've violated any policies with this post. If I have, I will gladly delete it.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazon --- If the Belgian Army engaged irregular, eg, non uniformed, "franc de tireur" forces in a foreign country, that had used that country as a base to organize the sending of airplanes crashing into the tallest buildings in Brussels, do you really suppose that the Belgian government would treat those foreign combatants each individually as if they were common criminals and accord them the same legal status as Belgians accused of crimes? Or even accord them POW legal status when they were not fighting under any national flag or government authority? And not even vett them before releasing them? Would they free those with
    leadership or special skills to come and attack them again?

    Would the Belgian security forces be negligent in not seeking to question them extensively to obtain any information about their organizational capabalilities, order of battle, command and support locations and the communications and HQ of its leadership? Or are those items that Belgian police and its criminal courts routinely handle?

    And if the Belgian security services were investigating
    stateless organizations planning major attacks on civilian targets in Belgium, do you suppose that the Belgian government would be acting responsibly by arresting only some of them publicly, releasing them on bail and in doing so give warning to their co conspirators so they have time to escape, regroup, modify or activate their operational plans for attacks?

    And would the Belgian security forces be acting responsibly if they did not detain and interrogate suspects linked to irregular hostile forces to learn of any current or future plans for major attacks on Belgian citizens?

    Rather than just slam the USA, enlighten us as to your proposed tactics to deal with transnational terrorism that is stateless and based upon zealous religous convictions that includes viewing civilians as prestige targets of opportunity.







    Jim, I'm not Amazon, but I'll chime in anyway.
    I fully support what you're saying about what the US has done and needs to do (in a sort of Belgian metaphore). I have no problem with "illegal prisons" and torturing people who kill innocents. The only problem that I have is the fact that VERY OFTEN the US forces arrest the wrong people, who have done nothing wrong and then keep them locked down until they establish that they truly aren't a threat.
    However, after spending 6 months in prison, do you think that person will really just go home and pretend nothing happened? No, they'll become extremely anti-American and so will their friends and family, who in many cases were indifferent to the US before an event such as this. This is the case in both Afghanistan and Iraq (although prisoners there are usually released within days).
    Of course mistakes happen, nothing anyone can do about it, but I really believe that the US is shooting itself in the foot with these prisons. When trying to win over the people belonging to the world's arguably most violent religion, who feel so connected to "their fellow Muslims", this isn't the way.
    I don't care what the US does; bomb them, shoot them to pieces, burn them alive with napalm, whatever, nothing is as bad as those third-world religiously-insane sobs seeing their "fellow Muslims" being mistreated.
    As long as they have been proven to be enemy combatants, it's all good and you have good arguments, but most people cringe when they think that innocents are imprisoned in such conditions.
    Like I said, I support the majority of your views and the US is definitely on the right side in this conflict. It just needs to choose its methods better.
    I have received a warning from CF about comments concerning the US policies, but I don't think I've violated any policies with this post. If I have, I will gladly delete it.



    Crash, you've made some good points. I appreciate your clarity. I agree that there were some held that were eventually released. I also heard of at least one case where the detainee came back and was involved in a subsequent attack on the troops later (in Afghanistan). Anyways, it would definitely be ideal if they are proved to be innocent to release them as soon as possible. Obviously, there's no reason to hold someone for no reason at all. Also, keep in mind that Gitmo is only for the most serious/dangerous detainees. There are prisons in Afghan/Iraq. No reason to transport them all the way for Gitmo without very good reason.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazon --- If the Belgian Army engaged irregular, eg, non uniformed, "franc de tireur" forces in a foreign country, that had used that country as a base to organize the sending of airplanes crashing into the tallest buildings in Brussels, do you really suppose that the Belgian government would treat those foreign combatants each individually as if they were common criminals and accord them the same legal status as Belgians accused of crimes? Or even accord them POW legal status when they were not fighting under any national flag or government authority? And not even vett them before releasing them? Would they free those with
    leadership or special skills to come and attack them again?

    Would the Belgian security forces be negligent in not seeking to question them extensively to obtain any information about their organizational capabalilities, order of battle, command and support locations and the communications and HQ of its leadership? Or are those items that Belgian police and its criminal courts routinely handle?

    And if the Belgian security services were investigating
    stateless organizations planning major attacks on civilian targets in Belgium, do you suppose that the Belgian government would be acting responsibly by arresting only some of them publicly, releasing them on bail and in doing so give warning to their co conspirators so they have time to escape, regroup, modify or activate their operational plans for attacks?

    And would the Belgian security forces be acting responsibly if they did not detain and interrogate suspects linked to irregular hostile forces to learn of any current or future plans for major attacks on Belgian citizens?

    Rather than just slam the USA, enlighten us as to your proposed tactics to deal with transnational terrorism that is stateless and based upon zealous religous convictions that includes viewing civilians as prestige targets of opportunity.







    Jim, I'm not Amazon, but I'll chime in anyway.
    I fully support what you're saying about what the US has done and needs to do (in a sort of Belgian metaphore). I have no problem with "illegal prisons" and torturing people who kill innocents. The only problem that I have is the fact that VERY OFTEN the US forces arrest the wrong people, who have done nothing wrong and then keep them locked down until they establish that they truly aren't a threat.
    However, after spending 6 months in prison, do you think that person will really just go home and pretend nothing happened? No, they'll become extremely anti-American and so will their friends and family, who in many cases were indifferent to the US before an event such as this. This is the case in both Afghanistan and Iraq (although prisoners there are usually released within days).
    Of course mistakes happen, nothing anyone can do about it, but I really believe that the US is shooting itself in the foot with these prisons. When trying to win over the people belonging to the world's arguably most violent religion, who feel so connected to "their fellow Muslims", this isn't the way.
    I don't care what the US does; bomb them, shoot them to pieces, burn them alive with napalm, whatever, nothing is as bad as those third-world religiously-insane sobs seeing their "fellow Muslims" being mistreated.
    As long as they have been proven to be enemy combatants, it's all good and you have good arguments, but most people cringe when they think that innocents are imprisoned in such conditions.
    Like I said, I support the majority of your views and the US is definitely on the right side in this conflict. It just needs to choose its methods better.
    I have received a warning from CF about comments concerning the US policies, but I don't think I've violated any policies with this post. If I have, I will gladly delete it.



    Crash, you've made some good points. I appreciate your clarity. I agree that there were some held that were eventually released. I also heard of at least one case where the detainee came back and was involved in a subsequent attack on the troops later (in Afghanistan). Anyways, it would definitely be ideal if they are proved to be innocent to release them as soon as possible. Obviously, there's no reason to hold someone for no reason at all. Also, keep in mind that Gitmo is only for the most serious/dangerous detainees. There are prisons in Afghan/Iraq. No reason to transport them all the way for Gitmo without very good reason.



    Very true, although this is rarely expressed by the press around the world (deliberate bias?). This is very common in Iraq, where some soldiers finmd themselves arresting the same guys several times, almost always after being shot by them, because the judges release them for "lack of evidence". This is something that should be worked on, since several soldiers would probably still be alive today had it not been for those judges. This, of course, is talking about Iraq.
    When talking about Gitmo and similar prisons, the situation isn't all that different. They release a person for supposedly not being a threat anymore and then encounter them again on the battlefield. On the flipside, some innocents have in the past been transported to Guantanamo. Those are the slip-ups that I meant.
    Now, I think we've come way off topic, so I think the next subject should concern Russian gulaghs

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    It is unrealistic to expect zero mistakes, zero innocent casualties during a conflict and zero pictures of people suffering from something because of it.

    I do understand European sensitivity about this. Look at the appalling widespread destruction, injuries and deaths suffered by civilians during both world wars on all sides
    that were inflicted upon them by both the Axis and the Allies both purposely and by error.

    As for fighting Al Quaida, it is better to risk a few innocents having their time stolen, some bruises and their lives turned upside down, then to bomb and shell the cities, villages and relatives of their irregular combatants into complete oblivion.

    As for detained irregular combatants having lawyers present that is not realistic, practical or warranted.

    Irregular combatants have no national flag or sovereign government to turn to or to negotiate their release with.

    What legal standard would their lawyers be working with? Local? The military or civilian standards of the forces that captured them? The legal customs of the irregulars?

    At what point would lawyers knowingly become or unknowingly become conduits of information for the guilty ones to assist their terrorist comrades and visa versa?

    POWs are not accorded lawyers, why should irregular combatants receive superior legal status and treatment?

    If you want to wage war as a irregular you are taking on greater risks than if you wore the uniform of a soveriegn state. There are good reasons for that. They are not visible off or near the battlefield, have not agreed to any recognized standard of warfare and have zero accountability.

    If it were not for a trans national group of irregular combatants dedicated to a religous cause that has declared war on civilians in the West this discussion would not exist.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    It is unrealistic to expect zero mistakes, zero innocent casualties during a conflict and zero pictures of people suffering from something because of it.

    I do understand European sensitivity about this. Look at the appalling widespread destruction, injuries and deaths suffered by civilians during both world wars on all sides
    that were inflicted upon them by both the Axis and the Allies both purposely and by error.

    As for fighting Al Quaida, it is better to risk a few innocents having their time stolen, some bruises and their lives turned upside down, then to bomb and shell the cities, villages and relatives of their irregular combatants into complete oblivion.

    As for detained irregular combatants having lawyers present that is not realistic, practical or warranted.

    Irregular combatants have no national flag or sovereign government to turn to or for us to negotiate with.

    What legal standard would their lawyers be working with? Local? The military or civilian standards of the forces that captured them? The legal customs of the irregulars?

    At what point would lawyers knowingly become or unknowingly become conduits of information for the guilty ones to assist their terrorist comrades and visa versa?

    POWs are not accorded lawyers, why should irregular combatants receive superior legal status and treatment?

    If you want to wage war as a irregular you are taking on greater risks than if you wore the uniform of a soveriegn state. There are good reasons for that. They are not visible off or near the battlefield, have not agreed to any recognized standard of warfare and have zero accountability.

    If it were not for a trans national group of irregular combatants dedicated to a religous cause that has declared war on civilians in the West this discussion would not exist.



    Jim, I understand all of that. My point, which obviously hasn't been expressed enough between the lines, is do anything you want with them, torture them, take them bungee jumping into nettle fields, use them for target practice, it doesn't bother me at all. Just don't make those mistakes known and don't make your methods known. Had those dimwits not made a photo album of their prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib, it wouldn't have turned into a scandal. Even most muslims wouldn't just jump the gun without any sort of proof.
    Do whatever you deem necessary, but keep it under wraps, away from muslim and human rights groups.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Crash, I'm against those sorts of carte blanche methods because eventually for some people, the methods used become more important than the information sought and it all becomes self defeating.

    However, If it is in the field, in the midst of a critical situation where time and information are of the essence, it does have its value.

    The moron reservists convicted of abuse got what they deserved. They were undisciplined idiots. Their commander was a witless state national gaurd political appointee who should be in Leavenworth with them for deriliction of duty.
    She failed to lead or command anything but her desk and trips to the PX.

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    It is unrealistic to expect zero mistakes, zero innocent casualties during a conflict and zero pictures of people suffering from something because of it.

    I do understand European sensitivity about this. Look at the appalling widespread destruction, injuries and deaths suffered by civilians during both world wars on all sides
    that were inflicted upon them by both the Axis and the Allies both purposely and by error.

    As for fighting Al Quaida, it is better to risk a few innocents having their time stolen, some bruises and their lives turned upside down, then to bomb and shell the cities, villages and relatives of their irregular combatants into complete oblivion.

    As for detained irregular combatants having lawyers present that is not realistic, practical or warranted.

    Irregular combatants have no national flag or sovereign government to turn to or for us to negotiate with.

    What legal standard would their lawyers be working with? Local? The military or civilian standards of the forces that captured them? The legal customs of the irregulars?

    At what point would lawyers knowingly become or unknowingly become conduits of information for the guilty ones to assist their terrorist comrades and visa versa?

    POWs are not accorded lawyers, why should irregular combatants receive superior legal status and treatment?

    If you want to wage war as a irregular you are taking on greater risks than if you wore the uniform of a soveriegn state. There are good reasons for that. They are not visible off or near the battlefield, have not agreed to any recognized standard of warfare and have zero accountability.

    If it were not for a trans national group of irregular combatants dedicated to a religous cause that has declared war on civilians in the West this discussion would not exist.



    Jim, I understand all of that. My point, which obviously hasn't been expressed enough between the lines, is do anything you want with them, torture them, take them bungee jumping into nettle fields, use them for target practice, it doesn't bother me at all. Just don't make those mistakes known and don't make your methods known. Had those dimwits not made a photo album of their prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib, it wouldn't have turned into a scandal. Even most muslims wouldn't just jump the gun without any sort of proof.
    Do whatever you deem necessary, but keep it under wraps, away from muslim and human rights groups.





    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    It is unrealistic to expect zero mistakes, zero innocent casualties during a conflict and zero pictures of people suffering from something because of it.

    I do understand European sensitivity about this. Look at the appalling widespread destruction, injuries and deaths suffered by civilians during both world wars on all sides
    that were inflicted upon them by both the Axis and the Allies both purposely and by error.

    As for fighting Al Quaida, it is better to risk a few innocents having their time stolen, some bruises and their lives turned upside down, then to bomb and shell the cities, villages and relatives of their irregular combatants into complete oblivion.

    As for detained irregular combatants having lawyers present that is not realistic, practical or warranted.

    Irregular combatants have no national flag or sovereign government to turn to or for us to negotiate with.

    What legal standard would their lawyers be working with? Local? The military or civilian standards of the forces that captured them? The legal customs of the irregulars?

    At what point would lawyers knowingly become or unknowingly become conduits of information for the guilty ones to assist their terrorist comrades and visa versa?

    POWs are not accorded lawyers, why should irregular combatants receive superior legal status and treatment?

    If you want to wage war as a irregular you are taking on greater risks than if you wore the uniform of a soveriegn state. There are good reasons for that. They are not visible off or near the battlefield, have not agreed to any recognized standard of warfare and have zero accountability.

    If it were not for a trans national group of irregular combatants dedicated to a religous cause that has declared war on civilians in the West this discussion would not exist.



    Jim, I understand all of that. My point, which obviously hasn't been expressed enough between the lines, is do anything you want with them, torture them, take them bungee jumping into nettle fields, use them for target practice, it doesn't bother me at all. Just don't make those mistakes known and don't make your methods known. Had those dimwits not made a photo album of their prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib, it wouldn't have turned into a scandal. Even most muslims wouldn't just jump the gun without any sort of proof.
    Do whatever you deem necessary, but keep it under wraps, away from muslim and human rights groups.








    Amazon, if you have a better idea how to get information out of people who can't wait to die and take as many innocent people as they can with them, please make it known. I'm against torture in principle, but people who blow up a busy marketplace, killing and wounding over a hundred people, deserve no better. I am not, however, advocating torture of people whom they're not sure about, whether they're the enemy or not. Clearer now?

    Re: You should be glad we don't drive in Russia

    Sorry guys, we have mentioned before that we should stay away from ongoing political discussions, Rennteam is not the place, lets get back to sportcars

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    686721 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    320240 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 12/3/22 10:23 PM
    watt
    217512 1262
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 12/4/22 12:10 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    203014 439
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    186234 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    129568 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/30/22 2:30 PM
    GnilM
    57580 68
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    521394 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    476917 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/27/22 2:46 AM
    WhoopsyM
    473034 3785
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    230406 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/4/22 2:26 AM
    Leawood911
    228918 1450
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    199986 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    196139 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 10/27/22 2:59 PM
    Leawood911
    190680 1863
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    190364 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    163529 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    160780 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    156919 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    143506 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    140366 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    138485 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    137705 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    136298 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 12/2/22 1:07 AM
    DJM48
    127335 1556
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    107358 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    106393 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    104098 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    79173 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31555 438
    174 items found, displaying 1 to 30.