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Re: V-flow from EVO MS
I got an email from Todd Zuccone the other day with the following info:
"Evolution Motorsports is proud to announce the release of our Stage 4 tuning system for the 997 S. This system consists of: Evolution Motorsports V-Flow Air Induction System, EVO/GIAC ECU tuning, mandrel bent stainless steel high flow catalytic converters, stainless steel sport exhaust and mandrel bent stainless steel high flow headers (See Figure 1). This tuning system delivers a max gain of 38 horsepower and 46 ft/lbs. of torque to the 3.8L 997S engine. In addition to peak power gains, this package produces increased power all throughout the entire power curve (See Figure 2 & Figure 3). There is a 20HP gain at 2700 RPM and lower, a 30-38 HP gain from 4000-7300 RPM, and the maximum gain of 38HP is achieved at 6600 RPM. Max torque occurs at 4100 RPM, but there is a 30 ft/lbs. of torque gain at 2500 RPM and below, and a 28-46 ft/lbs. of torque gain at 4000-6500 RPM. The maximum gain of 46 ft/lbs. of torque is realized at 4100 RPM. Not only does this system add impressive power, but it also gives the car a unique sporty/aggressive sound while still maintaining the classy German nature one would expect out of this vehicle. You will be able to feel and hear the difference made by this tuning system from the moment you step on the gas all the way up to redline. " $6200 for 393hp.
He also mentioned the upcoming supercharger for the 997S that will be featured in the next Excellence magazine. I don't know about you guys, but EVOMS seems a lot more reasonable in price than other tuners -- i.e., speedART, PSI, or RUF. I don't know their reputation, but I'm intrigued.
"Evolution Motorsports is proud to announce the release of our Stage 4 tuning system for the 997 S. This system consists of: Evolution Motorsports V-Flow Air Induction System, EVO/GIAC ECU tuning, mandrel bent stainless steel high flow catalytic converters, stainless steel sport exhaust and mandrel bent stainless steel high flow headers (See Figure 1). This tuning system delivers a max gain of 38 horsepower and 46 ft/lbs. of torque to the 3.8L 997S engine. In addition to peak power gains, this package produces increased power all throughout the entire power curve (See Figure 2 & Figure 3). There is a 20HP gain at 2700 RPM and lower, a 30-38 HP gain from 4000-7300 RPM, and the maximum gain of 38HP is achieved at 6600 RPM. Max torque occurs at 4100 RPM, but there is a 30 ft/lbs. of torque gain at 2500 RPM and below, and a 28-46 ft/lbs. of torque gain at 4000-6500 RPM. The maximum gain of 46 ft/lbs. of torque is realized at 4100 RPM. Not only does this system add impressive power, but it also gives the car a unique sporty/aggressive sound while still maintaining the classy German nature one would expect out of this vehicle. You will be able to feel and hear the difference made by this tuning system from the moment you step on the gas all the way up to redline. " $6200 for 393hp.
He also mentioned the upcoming supercharger for the 997S that will be featured in the next Excellence magazine. I don't know about you guys, but EVOMS seems a lot more reasonable in price than other tuners -- i.e., speedART, PSI, or RUF. I don't know their reputation, but I'm intrigued.
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
very true i woudnt take the risk althought id love the extra horsepower!...but i dont think it will give the same results as the X51 kit. Gemballa has an exhaust system that pumps the car extra 23 HP but the difference is only a 0.1 sec less from 0-60. Unlike the X51 kit!...but does the X51 kit effect the warranty?
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
Quote:
dr_sam said:
Thanks jlr
So instead of the x51 which costs about 12000 Euro and delivers 381hp you get a 393hp for $6200 ( about half the price)the quesition is how will it preform 0-60 and top speed.
Guys, have you seen how many new parts are involved in the powerkit mod for the 997 Carrera S? How can you believe that a Tuner can get the same reliable power out of the same engine with much lesser mods?
Another question: how many miles do Tuners test their products? 1000 miles? 10000 miles? (which would be a lot from what I know
). How many modded cars do they test? One? Two? How much in-depth testing do Tuners perform regarding cooling systems, drivetrain, high speed testing, tires, etc.? None?
Especially in the car business, you always get what you pay for.
And 95% (I'm not kidding) of the so called Tuners out there want to make money and don't care too much about reliability or safety of their products.
The most outraging claims like "Porsche can't detect the tuning" or "this has been developed by Porsche but was too good for the public
" are ridiculous.And those 3, 5, 7 or even 10 HP power gain claims are as funny as can be.
10 HP power gain? What kind of dyno did they use? How accurate is it? (1-3% error on a 355 HP car?
) Under what conditions (air temperature, air pressure, humidity, etc.) has the testing been done? Has it been confirmed by an independent source (and I don't mean the local dyno shop ).I really wonder how grown, succesful, money making adults spend 100000 bucks on a car and let themselves get fooled by some mechanics or clever business men. It is your money of course...
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
RC - it is pretty clear from all of your posts on the topic that you don't 'believe' in tuning these cars.
I am interested though in whether this is because you don't believe the HP gains or that you think the gains are made by sacrificing reliability.
It makes sense that free-flow exhausts and intakes should result in a power gain as can a more aggressive remap of the ECU obviously. The key question is probably how much headroom is there in the original design of the parts to accomodate the new output?
I am interested though in whether this is because you don't believe the HP gains or that you think the gains are made by sacrificing reliability.
It makes sense that free-flow exhausts and intakes should result in a power gain as can a more aggressive remap of the ECU obviously. The key question is probably how much headroom is there in the original design of the parts to accomodate the new output?
Jul 6, 2005 10:15:16 PM
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Carlos from Spain
- Rennteam Moderator
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- Loc: Spain. , Spain
- Posts: 21065, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
- Reply to: JasonC
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
I agree with RC:
- first we are talking about the Carrera/Boxster N/A engine which is very very hard to get anything out of, unlike its brothers like the Turbo or even GT3.
- tunners make outrageous claims hidden behind the fact thats its very difficult for the buyer to validate those claims, they want to sell what ever that can be marketed for sale not what works and how. Exhausts making 25HP, air filters making 10HP, etc... on the carrera engine 
- tunners have limited R&D resources and are working on someone else's product, so not only you have to consider the above about improving upon the maker's engineering but also you have to also consider reliablity (and warranty) on the long run with aftermarket mods. Would you buy aftermarket tunners' tires if they made some and offered them? or would you stick to Michelin/Bridjeston/Pirelli etc. Same reasoning.
I'm strictly talking about performance mods such as engine mods, suspensions, aerodinamics, etc. though there are exceptions like certain well known suspension kits, certain reputable lightweight wheels, or alum pedals for example, but in general thats how I feel about tunner's performance mods, specially engine mods, IMO in a 911 Carrera the only way to go is though factory performance options.
Though aftermarket aethetical mods are a different matter, those don't hurt the car and the gain is in the eye of the beholder so its OK if you are into that.
- first we are talking about the Carrera/Boxster N/A engine which is very very hard to get anything out of, unlike its brothers like the Turbo or even GT3.
- tunners make outrageous claims hidden behind the fact thats its very difficult for the buyer to validate those claims, they want to sell what ever that can be marketed for sale not what works and how. Exhausts making 25HP, air filters making 10HP, etc... on the carrera engine
- tunners have limited R&D resources and are working on someone else's product, so not only you have to consider the above about improving upon the maker's engineering but also you have to also consider reliablity (and warranty) on the long run with aftermarket mods. Would you buy aftermarket tunners' tires if they made some and offered them? or would you stick to Michelin/Bridjeston/Pirelli etc. Same reasoning.
I'm strictly talking about performance mods such as engine mods, suspensions, aerodinamics, etc. though there are exceptions like certain well known suspension kits, certain reputable lightweight wheels, or alum pedals for example, but in general thats how I feel about tunner's performance mods, specially engine mods, IMO in a 911 Carrera the only way to go is though factory performance options.
Though aftermarket aethetical mods are a different matter, those don't hurt the car and the gain is in the eye of the beholder so its OK if you are into that.
Jul 7, 2005 12:22:37 AM
- jlr
- Junior
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- Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
- Posts: 123, Gallery
- Registered on: May 15, 2005
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
Some of you make valid points, as I think the proof is in the pudding. Often claims are exaggerated; however, there is an entire automobile subculture devoted to tuning and I think it's silly to dismiss the entire pursuit. The SCCA classes cars in autocross by modification, so evidently they think there's an advantage. I've never put my cars on a dyno, but I've got a 95 Morgan Plus 8 with exhaust, header, and chip modifications that certainly feels much quicker than stock. I've had the car a few years and have had no problems. Also, I know folks with Dinan NA modifications to BMWs that are thrilled with the performance. Lots of people, consumers and tuners alike, think there is more power in many of the engines that are offered for sale to the public. Dinan admitted on one occasion that its tuning chip for the M5 did not produce more power because nothing more could be had, but usually that's not the case.
Altering a brand new Carrera may be another matter, as Porsche is obviously playing for keeps when it comes to warranty claims. But, they inviting this conduct when they consistently sell their cars with about 50 hp less than they need in today's world of performance.
Altering a brand new Carrera may be another matter, as Porsche is obviously playing for keeps when it comes to warranty claims. But, they inviting this conduct when they consistently sell their cars with about 50 hp less than they need in today's world of performance.
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
Jason,
I'm in the middle ground on this issue. I believe it IS possible to make mods. to the engine/exhaust/cats/intakes and achieve minor gains in HP even on a NA Carrera engine (and even major gains on a blown engine), but I also agree with RC and Carlos that even if possible, many claims tuners make re. HP AND PERFORMANCE gains from their products are often unsubstantiated and occasionally suspect. Even in the base Carrera engine/transmission/suspension alone, "compromises" are made to make the cars fast but at the same time reliable and driveable for everyday use. One COULD tweak the vehicle mechanics to counteract those compromises, but in addition to risking losing the car's warranty even for routine covered service, one risks buying products which in theory could improve the car's performance, but which in practice are ineffective, untested and potentially harmful.
RC's and Carlos' take-home message for me is to tune our cars and accept the tuners' claims with caution, and this is how I'll proceed: no MAJOR mechanical changes until the warranty is near done (things like a short shifter and maybe flashing the engine with no expectation of dramatic performance enhancement), so I'll have 4 years to research this, I'll have the advantage of playing with a turbo model, and I'll be realistic about what each mod. could do for (and possibly against) the car. Things such as replacing the existing turbos (996TSCab uses twin KKK K64's) and intercoolers with others with different induction pressures and thermal efficiencies would be deferred. And the more significant the change, the higher the risk of malfunction.
Not that I'm opposed to re-structuring the car, but only if I were comfortable with the specific package and those who would install it. I will follow this forum for advice and others' experience with mods. made to their cars.
I'm in the middle ground on this issue. I believe it IS possible to make mods. to the engine/exhaust/cats/intakes and achieve minor gains in HP even on a NA Carrera engine (and even major gains on a blown engine), but I also agree with RC and Carlos that even if possible, many claims tuners make re. HP AND PERFORMANCE gains from their products are often unsubstantiated and occasionally suspect. Even in the base Carrera engine/transmission/suspension alone, "compromises" are made to make the cars fast but at the same time reliable and driveable for everyday use. One COULD tweak the vehicle mechanics to counteract those compromises, but in addition to risking losing the car's warranty even for routine covered service, one risks buying products which in theory could improve the car's performance, but which in practice are ineffective, untested and potentially harmful.
RC's and Carlos' take-home message for me is to tune our cars and accept the tuners' claims with caution, and this is how I'll proceed: no MAJOR mechanical changes until the warranty is near done (things like a short shifter and maybe flashing the engine with no expectation of dramatic performance enhancement), so I'll have 4 years to research this, I'll have the advantage of playing with a turbo model, and I'll be realistic about what each mod. could do for (and possibly against) the car. Things such as replacing the existing turbos (996TSCab uses twin KKK K64's) and intercoolers with others with different induction pressures and thermal efficiencies would be deferred. And the more significant the change, the higher the risk of malfunction.
Not that I'm opposed to re-structuring the car, but only if I were comfortable with the specific package and those who would install it. I will follow this forum for advice and others' experience with mods. made to their cars.
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
JLR,
I am sympathetic to your postition here, as well. I believe RC (and Carlos) are simply being precautionary re. unbridled enthusiasm for tuning. I almost went with the DINAN mod. for my 1999 BMW M-Roadster (the "ISR-3" package with the intercooled supercharger with touted increases in peak HP from 240 to nearly 400HP on my 3.2L in-line 6 engine), that is until I traded in the Bimmer for my new 2005 (996) TSCab yesterday!
I had also heard great things about the DINAN product from multiple sources, including a local BMW owner who had his M-Roadster modded.
I also modded my new Audi S4 (with a local mechanic who has done a number of these packages for Rochester Audi S4 owners) with an Oberscheider chip to flash the engine, and Milltek cats/exhausts, plus a short shifter, and I can tell the car is faster without dyno-ing it.
So I agree that one can tune a 911, so long it is done properly and realistically.
I am sympathetic to your postition here, as well. I believe RC (and Carlos) are simply being precautionary re. unbridled enthusiasm for tuning. I almost went with the DINAN mod. for my 1999 BMW M-Roadster (the "ISR-3" package with the intercooled supercharger with touted increases in peak HP from 240 to nearly 400HP on my 3.2L in-line 6 engine), that is until I traded in the Bimmer for my new 2005 (996) TSCab yesterday!
I had also heard great things about the DINAN product from multiple sources, including a local BMW owner who had his M-Roadster modded.I also modded my new Audi S4 (with a local mechanic who has done a number of these packages for Rochester Audi S4 owners) with an Oberscheider chip to flash the engine, and Milltek cats/exhausts, plus a short shifter, and I can tell the car is faster without dyno-ing it.
So I agree that one can tune a 911, so long it is done properly and realistically.
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
Al, I take it the warranty did not expire on her S4 before you modified it. If so, I suppose you had an especially high level of confidence in the tuner.
Based on my experience with modifications and reports of others, I would find it unlikely that a chip mod, exhaust, intake, and header will seriouisly compromise the reliability of most performance cars, though obviously the manufacturer/service center could claim that any failure is related to the new part. Magnusson Moss applies, but who really wants to file suit against Porsche to recover service costs?
Based on my experience with modifications and reports of others, I would find it unlikely that a chip mod, exhaust, intake, and header will seriouisly compromise the reliability of most performance cars, though obviously the manufacturer/service center could claim that any failure is related to the new part. Magnusson Moss applies, but who really wants to file suit against Porsche to recover service costs?
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
JLR,
Yes, the warranty is not expired (I bought the car in January). With the S4, my performance expectations from and my willingness to risk warranty nullification from tuning the car were both higher. With the 911, I view the stakes as higher (cost of losing warranty coverage on a turbocharged car vs. on the "family sedan") although it's all relative, so I'll approach the TSCab more conservatively. Nonetheless, I still have ideas for tuning the car, especially if I hold on to it for more than a couple of years. And I agree I wouldn't want to have to resort to litigation to service my car. . . .
Yes, the warranty is not expired (I bought the car in January). With the S4, my performance expectations from and my willingness to risk warranty nullification from tuning the car were both higher. With the 911, I view the stakes as higher (cost of losing warranty coverage on a turbocharged car vs. on the "family sedan") although it's all relative, so I'll approach the TSCab more conservatively. Nonetheless, I still have ideas for tuning the car, especially if I hold on to it for more than a couple of years. And I agree I wouldn't want to have to resort to litigation to service my car. . . .
Re: V-flow from EVO MS
Thaks RC
I know that is ture but as PORSCHE gives more HP we all look for more and more. We may get carried away with the idea but before it is too late ,like it is now, one realizes that's not the way 
. So tell my what to do I need more power 
and the X51 is not the answer because it is too late now 
I know that is ture
but as PORSCHE gives more HP we all look for more and more. We may get carried away with the idea but before it is too late ,like it is now, one realizes that's not the way . So tell my what to do I need more power and the X51 is not the answer because it is too late now
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