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    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Just watched the long version and I found it deeply moving.  I never liked him at the time, but the movie provided an insight into the anguish, trials and tribulations of even the best racing driver in the world.  And I thought it was just me that had work stress...

    I didn't realise there were 2 versions - luckily I watched the 3 hr version with the interviews - I can't imagine how it might have worked without them.

    The (first) incident with Prost was fascinating - his body language when questioned about whether he went straight to the stewards immediately after the incident showed that he was lying through his teeth.  He came across as very shallow, and clearly in cahoots with his fellow countryman, the deeply dishonest Balestre.  (As an aside, the version I watched was an illegal download and someone had added English sub-titles (not sure why - they were speaking English - and Balestre was translated, literally, to "Mr Crossbows" the whole time..!)

    When Senna took his revenge a year later, at least he showed some remorse.

    Prost never came across well - his Balestre-aided trickery, his contractual machinations to avoid Senna as a team-mate - everything seemed to suggest a man willing to go to any lengths to avoid facing his adversary fair and square.

    So I couldn't really understand why Prost ever agreed to be interviewed - he came across so badly all the time.  For a man so careful with his contracts, he either forgot to retain editorial rights over the director's cut of the film, or perhaps I'm not giving him enough credit.

    I'm still pondering this, a week later.

     


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    At least you found it a thought-provoking movie ...

    Prost won 4 world titles ... that shouldn't be forgotten kiss


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I haven't watched the longer version ... perhaps someone could PM me a link kiss


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I second that !!!! :-)
    --


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Budster:
    Prost never came across well - his Balestre-aided trickery, his contractual machinations to avoid Senna as a team-mate - everything seemed to suggest a man willing to go to any lengths to avoid facing his adversary fair and square.

    So I couldn't really understand why Prost ever agreed to be interviewed - he came across so badly all the time.  For a man so careful with his contracts, he either forgot to retain editorial rights over the director's cut of the film, or perhaps I'm not giving him enough credit.

    I'm still pondering this, a week later.

     

    IMO, this is the beauty of the way the film has been put together. Half way through the film, almost everyone thinks Prost is an evil villain but as the movie concludes, you realize that Prost's character transitions from villain to friend as they show Senna and Prost having buried the hatchet and in fact becoming close friends. In fact, on the weekend of his death at Imola, Senna posted a message on one of the digial bill boards stating "Alain, I miss you", almost as if Senna knew that he was living the last few hours of his life.  In the end, you see Prost at Senna's funeral lifting Senna's casket and also, in the concluding credits,  the film mentions that Alain Prost is currently one of the senior advisory members of the "Aryton Senna Foundation" which has helped educate over a million Brazilian kids.

    This film is simply a masterpiece, and once again, I urge all of you to watch the extended version. The details I mentioned above, are not shown in the normal theatrical version. If anyone needs a link to the extended version, PM me.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Hi Skazzy

    I have also watched the standard version on the DVD and in a private projection here in Prague last Tuesday which Bruno Senna attended, nevertheless I cannot find the extended version. I thought I would have found it on the DVD but it was not there. Any idea where it can be purchased ?

    Thanks


    --

    997 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Today bought what appears to me the standard version. Its a DVD case with two dvd in it, dont know if its the extended version or standard version. Either way cant wait to finally see it !!! Will post my impressions after it. It is a little xmass gift to myself that maked me reeally happy !!!


    --


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Figured that those of you who enjoyed the film will probably like this as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShPc3nY5m5w

     

     


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    The film wasn't nominated for an Oscar in 2012

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/nov/21/senna-kapadia-oscars-2012

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16700124
     


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I actually watched Senna race in person for 12 days - 4 three day race weekends. I saw him in the pits, I saw him close up going all out in qualifying, I saw him with rain slicks on in the wet, and I was standing 15 feet away as he and Prost went by one after the other as teammates for Mclaren. I could look down into the cockpit.

    Like too many other things, F1 is not as good as it was, the cars are hideous, down on power, and the tracks have been eviscerated. Here is some great video from the best year in F1 -- 1986. Fast tracks, beautiful cars, the best driver roster, and Turbo engines putting out 1200 bhp in qualifying!

    The entire Saturday qualifying session featuring a lot of Senna getting ready and driving from Brands Hatch;

     

     


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    The Senna documentary was awarded 2 BAFTA awards this evening: Best Documentary and Best Editing.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    ^Well deserved. I guess Formula 1 isn't exactly a sport that the most American's can relate with which is perhaps the reason why it was excluded from the Oscars.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    racerx:
    Here is some great video from the best year in F1 -- 1986. Fast tracks, beautiful cars, the best driver roster, and Turbo engines putting out 1200 bhp in qualifying!

    The entire Saturday qualifying session featuring a lot of Senna getting ready and driving from Brands Hatch;

    Those were great videos Tom - many thanks for posting..Smiley

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I bought the dvd like one month ago, and still didnt get the chance to watch it !!!!mail


    --


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    The 80's cars were so beautiful in their design and paint schemes, Senna's JPS Lotus from 86 was one of the nicest and really something to see racing in person, but the most consistently beautiful cars were the brabhams designed by Gordon Murray.

    Here is the BT52, which always reminds me of the colonial viper from battlestar gallactica;

    BT-52.jpg

     

     a few years later The best looking race car of the modern era 1987 BT-56 -

    1987 zeltweg brabham.jpg

     

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Brabham_BMW_BT56_de_Cesaris_Britain_1987.jpg

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/2312285045/sizes/z/in/photostream/


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I have access to my stuff for the 1st time in years and found some cool items I have saved including the programs/brochures I bought at the Grand Prix's I attended in Montreal years - 1984, 85, 86, and 1988.

    gp2.jpg

     a map of the track, notice how the pit lane was up at the hairpin, this was long before they built actual garages at the other end. The pits were just a paved area where the mechanics worked out in the weather. I had a pit pass ticket and stood next to cars as they were worked on. I was a few feet away from Niki Lauda as he talked to his mechanic next to his Tag Turbo porsche Mclaren.

    gp1.jpg

     

    senna's page, his rookie season, driving for Toleman

    gp3.jpg


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    1985

    gpa.jpg

    an ad for the 308 (better looking than 360/430/458 imo)

    gpb.jpg


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    1986

    The best year -- F1 at its peak, the year I drove my couple months old Mustang GT up to Montreal. If I remember right, rain on Friday, great weather on Sat and Sun. Had tickets in the L grandstand. Great spot for taking pics and enjoying the race.

    gp6.jpg

    back cover

    gp7.jpg

    cool ferrari ad

    gp5.jpg


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    1987 - NO Canadian GP, Labatt and Molson fighting over sponsorship

    1988 - Back to the race now sponsored by Molson. Unfortunately, F1 is already starting it's downhill slide by 88. Horsepower is way down, quality of teams is waaaay down, just like it would be for a long time with a couple dominant players and a bunch of also-rans. Driver quality is also way down with a few top drivers left and a bunch of nobodies.

    gp n.jpg

    gpm.jpg

    new track layout ^^ with permanent garages at lower left instead of at the hairpin on the right.

     

    I stayed at a top hotel and on Saturday evening I got in the elevator to go down to the lobby to go out, 2 sharply dressed couples (silk suits, gowns) joined me for the ride. As i turned to look at them I notice I was in the elevator with Nigel Mansell and his wife. I got a kick out of that. I let them exit first and as we were all walking away I said "Nice driving today Nigel", He stopped, turned, smiled, and said "Thank you, very much".

     

    I doubt we will ever see such a deep talented list of drivers as were at the 86 Montreal GP;

    Senna, Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Rosberg, Alboreto, Johanson, Arnoux, Lafite, Berger, Fabi, Tambay, A Jones, Patrese, De Angelis, even the backmarkers were good nannini,surer,boutsen, palmer, dumfries, and decesaris.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Wow, that's great stuff. Must bring back wonderful memories!devil


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Fantastic stuff!! Thanks for taking the time to scan and post kiss


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Carrageous:

     Must bring back wonderful memories!devil

     

    Yes, especially 86. I moved around to different vantage points during friday and saturday, but had my seats in the "L" grandstand which is a tremendous spot to watch from. That year the weather during the times I sat there was ideal, warm, not hot, no humidity, sun behind you. I would call it F1 fan heaven, watch the cars come down a straight, turn in and accelerate as they go past you. 86 being the most powerful year with cars running up to 1200hp in qualifying, they made such an incredible sound, ground shaking with explosions after every shift.

    Some of the hundreds of pics I took, (cell phone shot of actual real film photo's)

    gp pics.jpg

    The best looking ferrari race car imo ^^, the radical Brabham, Ayrton in the JPS Lotus, and the 2 Honda Williams. Those pics show how smooth a race track should be.

     

    gp pic.jpg

    Close-up shots of Mansell and Piquet from 86, notice roll bar heights and the corner before the L grandstand where I stood by the armco and could look down into the cockpit as they went by in 1988 when Prost and Senna were teammates. Both have identical drink hoses and I could see their hands on the wheel.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I need to get access to a high quality scanner, as these pics are really high quality shots in person taken with real film in my old Nikon.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Great shots! What an experience.

    I'm looking forward to my first race this fall in Austin ... God willing!!! Smiley


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Just a heads up guys.

    In the UK, on Sky Atlantic & Sky Atlantic HD, the Senna movie was shown on Thu 22 Mar at 9pm and is being repeated on Sat 24 Mar at 11.05pm.

    It's the cinema version (not the extended version).


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I just watched the short version on Emirates last night.  great movie.  I was a Senna fan, as I like the emotional personalities of sport but understand others who would not like that.

    A couple of observations: 1) it appears there was a greater presence of US sponsorship in F1 during the mid-late 80's than today - including the MTV car.  I would have thought that the US presence is increasing now, but maybe it was higher than or maybe US companies were seeking European marketing opportunities.  2) on the comments about the cars today.  I agree that the late 80's cars were purer racing machines.  I think it is amazing to watch Senna take a car just past its edge and then reign it back.  Schumacher could do the same in his time.  I disagree that today's cars do not have enough power.  The reason I disagree is that all the driver aids that have come along since the 80's would make more powerful cars today only less exciting (it would be tantamount to computers having even greater horsepower, not racers having greater horsepower).  I would like to see F1 strip more drivers aids and aero from the current cars.  I understand there is a balance between driver aids for safety vs. driver aids for handling purposes, but the cars have become too mechanical.  if you look at the 93 series with Williams, it was agreed that the active suspension was too great an advantage, but the best companies have come close to realizing the same sort of grip through aerodynamics and tyre technology with FIA doing nothing about this.  I guess FIA has to struggle with F1's importance as a trickle down technology sport and pure racing.  Personally, I would like to see more racing.


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I watched the movie again on Saturday night.

    I just wanted to share some thoughts ... purely my 2 cents :)

    My opinion of Senna hasn't changed but I certainly enjoyed watching the movie-documentary again. Watching it on a widescreen TV was a lot more satisfying than watching it in segments on YouTube via my laptop.

    It's interesting how the movie implies (but doesn't openly accuse) Prost (with apparent help from Balestre) of getting the 1984 Monaco GP stopped due to rain just before Senna could overtake Prost.

    Similarly, the movie doesn't explain why Senna crashed into a barrier at a later race at Monaco when he was far ahead in the race. Senna was in the zone describing it like driving in a never-ending "tunnel". So why did he crash? The only message to take away from that was that Senna pushed himself to the limit even when he no longer needed to because that was the kind of man he was ... even though it cost him victory.

    Regarding the collision between Prost and Senna at the 1989 Japanese GP, the movie comes down firmly in favour of Senna. Prost could not continue after the collision but Senna was pushed by the marshals and he tried to rejoin the race by re-entering the track through the escape route. Senna didn't obtain an advantage by doing this so he didn't have any advantage to give up. He was disqualified for this after the race by the race stewards (it seems with the apparent influence of Balestre). Subsequently, Ron Dennis showed a video showing how two other drivers in 1981 had not been disqualified for doing exactly the same thing on an escape route. Dennis rightly argued how this could be consistent. IMvHO, the 1981 decision was right and the 1989 decision against Senna was wrong. I think Balestre wanted to punish Senna for ruining Prost's race and he wanted to make sure that Prost, and not Senna, would win the Driver's Championship. The alleged pro-French bias comes across subtly but clearly. At a subsequent drivers' meeting, other drivers complain that expecting a driver to turn around and drive in the escape route against the flow of traffic would be dangerous. I'm not surprised that Senna walked out of that meeting.

    Balestre comes across very negatively in this movie. He behaves as if F1 is his own property. Regarding the pre-race drivers' meeting when it was decided to replace tyre walls with cones, he says that every decision he makes is the best decision. He seems like some kind of dictator.

    Regarding the 1990 Japanese GP, the movie doesn't explain why the pole position car had to start on the dirty side of the grid and why this was changed at short notice. The movie leaves the viewer to assume this was Balestre's doing. Regarding the collision at Turn 1 between Prost and Senna, this is how I saw it: Senna starts slowly off the grid, Prost takes the lead, Prost turns in a little towards Senna, Senna moves away a little, Prost then straightens up and moves away a little, a gap opens up, Senna sees this opening and tries to get past using the inside of the corner, Prost turns in on him when Senna is almost alongside and when it is perhaps already too late for Senna to back off so the two drivers collide taking each other off the track.

    The movie portrays Senna as being at a helpless disadvantage in 1993 against the electronic driver aids (active suspension etc) that enabled Prost's Williams car to outperform Senna's McLaren. Senna is quoted as complaining about this as an "electronic war". But this did not stop Senna from joining Williams the next year in 1994 after Prost retired and then complaining that the electronic driver aids were no longer legal. This came across to me as hypocritical.

    Senna was exceptionally talented and blindingly fast. Of that, there can be no doubt. What concerns me is his approach. He believed that if there was the slightest gap, he would go for it since otherwise one is no longer a racing driver. I disagree. IMHO the point is that a driver should not just ask himself the question 'is there a gap I can try to get through?' but rather 'is there a gap that I can try to get through such that I can complete the overtaking manoeuvre without the other driver being forced to back off so as to avoid an accident?'. Some might argue that every close overtaking manoeuvre involves one driver backing off. However, I regard this as being because the position can no longer be defended, not because it is always a case of trying to avoid an accident. However, Senna expected other drivers to flinch first and back off to avoid a collision since he himself would not back off. It is like playing a game of Russian Roulette where the opponent knows he has to concede because the other guy will not.

    Jackie Stewart asked Senna the most perceptive question IMO. How come Senna had been involved in more collisions in the past 36-48 months than previous world champions had suffered in their whole careers? It was a question that cornered Senna who IMO didn't answer the question posed. He instead answered that Stewart was experienced enough to know that not 'going for it' meant one was no longer a racing driver. IMO Senna sidestepped the issue by focussing on a racing driver's intent rather than upon the outcome of his own overtaking attempts and what this said about his driving style.

    The only lowpoint IMO was when some random TV presenter asked Senna if any of his past girlfriends had ever asked him to 'go faster'. This was pretty vulgar but maybe I'm just guilty of judging this tasteless comment by today's standards.

    Seeing Martin Donnelly's twisted body in his race seat on the track (with mangled legs) was hard to watch but it brought home the ever-present danger of F1.

    Hearing Senna's reaction to winning his home GP showed how much it meant to him but he also struck me as being on the edge of his mental and emotional sanity.

    About Senna's death at the Tamburello corner at the 1994 San Marino GP at Imola, the movie suggests he was deeply troubled by the events of that weekend (Rubens Barrichello's crash in a Jordan, Roland Ratzenberger's tragic death and Pedro Lamy crashing into the back of JJ Lehto on the grid) and that perhaps Senna wasn't his usual self as a result of all this. But then the movie also quotes Senna complaining that his Williams car suffered both oversteer and understeer, something that troubles Adrian Newey to this day: was he partly responsible for Senna's death? Was it a broken steering column that was at fault? And then there is just the element of sheer bad luck. Senna had no broken bones and no bruises on his body but if the impact on his head had been just a few inches away from where it was, he may not have died. The movie doesn't definitively answer the question of what actually caused his death but leaves it to the viewer to accept that it was just a tragic accident for which there are only theories as to why it happened. At least the movie says that Senna didn't die in vain since there have been no further fatalities in F1 since then due to vastly improved safety and regulations in F1.

    Overall, a thought-provoking film that I enjoyed far more second time round. I wonder how much better the extended version is. While I have enormous respect for what he achieved, I regret that the film doesn't change my fundamental concerns regarding Senna's personality.

    Prost however comes out of it very badly IMO. IMO the movie portrays him as a percentage-playing driver and shrewd politician who used his favoured status with Balestre to manoeuvre towards obtaining preferential treatment in the application of the rules.

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    I thought (and I could be wrong) that the movie was suggesting he death was caused by something more systematic than oversteer or understeer - like a broken steering column.  I thought I remember them saying that the corner is simple enough that no simple driving error would let him go that far, that fast, that straight off the corner, over the run off and into the tyres full speed.  I remember watching it live on the TV, i was a new F1 fan at the time and remember over and over again thinking he just drove straight


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Yes, I think your recollection is correct. As far as I remember, the movie also mentioned a broken steering column as a possible cause. I think overall though the movie doesn't state a definitive conclusion which was my point.

    In a way, the mystique of Senna is IMO amplified by the fact that there is uncertainty as to exactly how the crash happened. Everyone has their theories and we may never know for sure.

    If we knew exactly what happened and why, it would make it easier to consign him to the past. Perhaps it's a good thing that he won't be forgotten so easily. In a strange sort of way, it's nice that the mystery behind the legend still lives on.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ayrton Senna Movie

    Easy,
    I agree with you wholeheartedly on what you wrote. It shows Senna as a great racing driver, but also as someone who wasn't perfect, but tries to refrain from judgement.

    The only thing I do not agree with you about is your view of how Prost is portrayed: Yes, during the cause of the movie, he comes off pretty bad (which isn't weird if you make a movie on Senna), but towards the end I really got a feeling that the two of them had grown into some mutual respect. The fact that Prost ended up being chairman(?) of the Ayrton Senna Foundation, is a confirmation of that and really touched me.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

     
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