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    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Brunner, Porsche (deliberately or not) held back the manual.
    Remember pre-boosting? AS it turns out, it's only used in the Tiptronic, but not in the manual. Also, it's not about bragging, it's about performance and enjoyment. But let's say that I sacrifice enjoyment for performance (after all, I COULD live with a Tip) and buy a Tip. The catch? The 6spd is faster ABOVE 200 km/h. So now I have to decide, what kind of car I want. That's what I don't like about the new car.
    Now, PDK will in all probability solve this, with superior performance in all speed ranges, but it still leaves a bad aftertaste.



    Porsche just did what is necessary to get the maximum possible performance. You can't seriously ask them to "limit" Tiptronic power, just for the manual to be faster. And I ask again (and nobody provided a good answer yet): what is the difference between PDK and Tiptronic? Because the difference is smaller than most of you people think but it may take some time (and testdrives, reviews, etc.) until people start to understand.

    In my opinion, this whole Tiptronic vs. Manual talk is regarding the "smell" of Tiptronic and Manual. Tiptronic smells like "old", "woman", "not sporty". Manual "smells" like "young", "fast", "masculine", "sporty".
    Well, I give a damn how I'm fast and I surely wouldn't sacrifice performance for the "smell".

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Brunner, Porsche (deliberately or not) held back the manual.
    Remember pre-boosting? AS it turns out, it's only used in the Tiptronic, but not in the manual. Also, it's not about bragging, it's about performance and enjoyment. But let's say that I sacrifice enjoyment for performance (after all, I COULD live with a Tip) and buy a Tip. The catch? The 6spd is faster ABOVE 200 km/h. So now I have to decide, what kind of car I want. That's what I don't like about the new car.
    Now, PDK will in all probability solve this, with superior performance in all speed ranges, but it still leaves a bad aftertaste.



    Porsche just did what is necessary to get the maximum possible performance. You can't seriously ask them to "limit" Tiptronic power, just for the manual to be faster. And I ask again (and nobody provided a good answer yet): what is the difference between PDK and Tiptronic? Because the difference is smaller than most of you people think but it may take some time (and testdrives, reviews, etc.) until people start to understand.

    In my opinion, this whole Tiptronic vs. Manual talk is regarding the "smell" of Tiptronic and Manual. Tiptronic smells like "old", "woman", "not sporty". Manual "smells" like "young", "fast", "masculine", "sporty".
    Well, I give a damn how I'm fast and I surely wouldn't sacrifice performance for the "smell".



    RC, trust me, I'd take the manual over both in a heartbeat. Now, the new Turbo is certainly an impressive performer, but the TipS issue still bugs me. If they used pre-boost to improve its numbers (nothing wrong with that), why couldn't they do the same on a manual? Honestly, I don't really MIND the Tip being faster, but I'd want for the 6-speed time to be better than it is, accordig to factory claims, that's all. 12.2 for a 6-speed sounds good, even if the Tip posts an 11.8...

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Porsche just did what is necessary to get the maximum possible performance. You can't seriously ask them to "limit" Tiptronic power, just for the manual to be faster. And I ask again (and nobody provided a good answer yet): what is the difference between PDK and Tiptronic? Because the difference is smaller than most of you people think but it may take some time (and testdrives, reviews, etc.) until people start to understand.



    Indeed we will have to wait until the car arrives to be sure. I will take a guess at your "challenge", correct me if this is not true. Historically, the Tip will contribute to poorer throtle response, less crisp downshifts, and a little less power while "in gear" (inertia? non-locking convertor?). However, these days, computer technology can reduce or eliminate a lot of these traits. PDK should have quick, crisp downshifts, and may respond to user inputs better. It will have at least one extra gear and some of the trickery used to achieve better acceleration times on the Tip might also be possible. When comparing these "automatic" systems, it's all about the effectiveness of the software.

    As I commented in the other thread, it is important to evaluate how the Tip changes the driving experience compared to PDK or even a regular manual. Certainly the interfaces of PDK and Tip are similar.

    Why don't you spill the beans RC, if you have some thoughts on this? Tell us more than assuring they will be closer than we think. Are you saying that someone who would not buy Tip, but would buy PDK, is being silly?

    Also, why is performance the absolute criterion? I think the setup that is more entertaining for your intended use is best. Will you have less fun if you are slightly slower (PDK or manual)? Perhaps you get very little out of rowing your own gears.

    BTW, in the U.S., some drag racers have 3 speed automatics with 1000hp.

    - Justin

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Brunner, Porsche (deliberately or not) held back the manual.
    Remember pre-boosting? AS it turns out, it's only used in the Tiptronic, but not in the manual. Also, it's not about bragging, it's about performance and enjoyment. But let's say that I sacrifice enjoyment for performance (after all, I COULD live with a Tip) and buy a Tip. The catch? The 6spd is faster ABOVE 200 km/h. So now I have to decide, what kind of car I want. That's what I don't like about the new car.
    Now, PDK will in all probability solve this, with superior performance in all speed ranges, but it still leaves a bad aftertaste.



    Porsche just did what is necessary to get the maximum possible performance. You can't seriously ask them to "limit" Tiptronic power, just for the manual to be faster.



    RC... you should know better than anyone that Porsche is constantly "limiting" or detuning their vehicles so that they do not over-step a higher priced model. In this particular case Porsche wouldn't have even been second guessed. Who would've actually thought that the Tip would ever be faster than a manual?

    I've used the crappy Tip in my SUV once or twice and I think my GF used it once. It sucks. It is no where as fun as driving an M3 with DSG II, so I won't even compare the two.

    Re: 997 TT

    Yeah but then again you are comparing an M3 with an suv; that makes alot of since???

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Yeah but then again you are comparing an M3 with an suv; that makes alot of since???



    No I am comparing Tip vs DSG. Have you driven a Tip Porsche before? Have you used those goofy little buttons? Not for a sports car... definitely not for the turbo.

    Re: 997 TT

    Honestly I have not. I am just hoping it functions better than what I have heard in the other models. As far as the buttons I am guessing it takes some time to get used to, but I think I might like it better than having the paddles. It appears to be easier to use at different driving positions, and you have the option to use either left or right hand for shifts. My dealer told me I could pass by and drive a 997 s with the tip. I drove the 6speed and i simply loved it. He told me the 6speed would be more fun but he has'nt driven a 997TT yet so I wont take his word YET.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    If they used pre-boost to improve its numbers (nothing wrong with that), why couldn't they do the same on a manual?



    Well, as a Valentine One owner with good engineering sense, you might speculate as to the answer of your own question. How does one pre-boost the engine of a manual transmission car without either potentially burning up the clutch or bouncing the engine off the rev limiter??

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Have you driven a Tip Porsche before? Have you used those goofy little buttons? Not for a sports car... definitely not for the turbo.



    I've owned both the manual and Tip and the thumb buttons are a lot less clumsy to use than trying to heel-and-toe down-shift a 6-speed 996TT at my height and foot size.

    The lack of a console delete option on the turbo makes the 6-speed nearly useless for highly coordinated foot/pedal movements in which three feet would be an advantage.

    My 911RS/IROC and Carrera GT had/have plenty of room to operate the pedals, but not the 996TT. Thumb buttons rule for tall guys, but paddles would probably be better.

    You ought to grow in stature a little or get out more to see how the tall half lives.

    Re: 997 TT

    LOL... point taken Mike.

    I am "standard-sized" and honestly can say I haven't put much thought into how the tall would handle the foot pedals.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Have you driven a Tip Porsche before? Have you used those goofy little buttons? Not for a sports car... definitely not for the turbo.



    I've owned both the manual and Tip and the thumb buttons are a lot less clumsy to use than trying to heel-and-toe down-shift a 6-speed 996TT at my height and foot size.

    The lack of a console delete option on the turbo makes the 6-speed nearly useless for highly coordinated foot/pedal movements in which three feet would be an advantage.

    My 911RS/IROC and Carrera GT had/have plenty of room to operate the pedals, but not the 996TT. Thumb buttons rule for tall guys, but paddles would probably be better.

    You ought to grow in stature a little or get out more to see how the tall half lives.


    I'm in the same boat. That's why I opted for the Tip..

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Brunner, Porsche (deliberately or not) held back the manual.
    Remember pre-boosting? AS it turns out, it's only used in the Tiptronic, but not in the manual. Also, it's not about bragging, it's about performance and enjoyment. But let's say that I sacrifice enjoyment for performance (after all, I COULD live with a Tip) and buy a Tip. The catch? The 6spd is faster ABOVE 200 km/h. So now I have to decide, what kind of car I want. That's what I don't like about the new car.
    Now, PDK will in all probability solve this, with superior performance in all speed ranges, but it still leaves a bad aftertaste.



    Porsche just did what is necessary to get the maximum possible performance. You can't seriously ask them to "limit" Tiptronic power, just for the manual to be faster. And I ask again (and nobody provided a good answer yet): what is the difference between PDK and Tiptronic? Because the difference is smaller than most of you people think but it may take some time (and testdrives, reviews, etc.) until people start to understand.




    RC, with all due respect (and advance appologies ): it might be you to do some testdrives and comparisons between DSG and Tip to notice what huge improvement the DSG technology is...

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    rhino said:
    Yeah but then again you are comparing an M3 with an suv; that makes alot of since???



    No I am comparing Tip vs DSG. Have you driven a Tip Porsche before? Have you used those goofy little buttons? Not for a sports car... definitely not for the turbo.



    Totaly agree

    Re: 997 TT

    TIP vs. Manual-all times battle...
    Personally, I am for manual. Here is something from official Porsche press release:
    "This extra power and torque naturally means an even higher standard of dynamic performance on the road: Equipped with a six-speed manual gearbox, the new 911 Turbo accelerates to 100 km/h in 3.9 seconds. And featuring optional Tiptronic S, the car completes the same sprint even faster in just 3.7 seconds. This makes the new 911 Turbo the first sports car from Porsche with even faster acceleration in the automatic mode than in manual - a result of the interaction of the turbochargers with their variable turbine geometry, Porsche Traction Management, and the new Tiptronic S set-up."
    More:
    "Tiptronic S with new dynamic driving functions

    Whenever the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal abruptly, the Fast-Off function now also prevents the Tiptronic transmission from shifting up even if the driver does not release the gas pedal completely. This improves driving dynamics to an even higher standard, particularly on winding roads and serpentines.

    The new, additional Fast-Back function, in turn, enables the driver to shift down more quickly when applying the brakes in a sporting style and moving over quickly from the gas to the brake pedal. When braking into a bend, for example, Fast-Back automatically helps to find the right gear for subsequently accelerating dynamically out of the bend."
    And something about optional LSD for manual:
    "In the new 911 Turbo PTM Porsche Traction Management communicates directly with PSM Porsche Stability Management also featured as standard. A further important benefit is that Stability Management is now supplemented by enhanced brake functions, pre-loading of the brake system serving to further shorten stopping distances when applying the brakes all-out. And should the driver apply the brakes quickly, but not with full force, the Brake Assistant is activated and the hydraulic pump serves to build up full brake pressure for ABS brake action on all four wheels. As an option, Porsche also offers the genuine enthusiast a mechanical rear axle wheel lock with asymmetric distribution of engine power further enhancing the driving dynamics of the fully controlled Porsche Traction Management all-wheel-drive system."

    Re: 997 TT

    0-160 and 0-200 there is the same .6 sec difference. So it seems from 160 km/h is very even and then the manual starts to improve. Not from 200km/h

    Still mag. test are going to solve the mistery

    Mike, Rally cars have been using manual pre-boosting turbo systems since the 80s, so it is fairly easy done. (A bit loud but easy)
    Porsche where just lucky with the TIP and VTG. Is not that they pre-boost on purpose. All torque converters keep providing power when changing gear, hence you see the needle going a little bit up before matching the next gear revs. Before this would mean an almost unnoticable pre-boost on the Turbo. With VTG even this small exhaust gas during gear-changes provides a more than reasonable boost, and then performance increase.

    This is the logical explenation I have found. Of course they could do that with a manual, but not keeping the gas during gear changes or clutch would burn. Is using a by-pass system that keeps the engine running and turbo boosted while gear change is talking place. (We call it bang-bang) because of the sound it makes

    Re: 997 TT

    I just went from an Audi with Tip to DSG.

    Granted, these are not close to being a 911, but DSG is light years ahead of tiptronic. The DSG gear-box is a marvel. Shifts are so immediate and crisp...it's unreal. Not to mention smooth as silk.

    Now, I'm sure the 997 TT tip is better than the one that I had in my A6 , but it's no DSG.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    I just went from an Audi with Tip to DSG.

    Granted, these are not close to being a 911, but DSG is light years ahead of tiptronic. The DSG gear-box is a marvel. Shifts are so immediate and crisp...it's unreal. Not to mention smooth as silk.

    Now, I'm sure the 997 TT tip is better than the one that I had in my A6 , but it's no DSG.



    Whenever the first 997TT with PDK will be available all previous Tip (and most manual) cutomers will realize what old technology they bought. The implications for resale value are quite obvious

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    0-160 and 0-200 there is the same .6 sec difference. So it seems from 160 km/h is very even and then the manual starts to improve. Not from 200km/h

    Still mag. test are going to solve the mistery

    Mike, Rally cars have been using manual pre-boosting turbo systems since the 80s, so it is fairly easy done. (A bit loud but easy)
    Porsche where just lucky with the TIP and VTG. Is not that they pre-boost on purpose. All torque converters keep providing power when changing gear, hence you see the needle going a little bit up before matching the next gear revs. Before this would mean an almost unnoticable pre-boost on the Turbo. With VTG even this small exhaust gas during gear-changes provides a more than reasonable boost, and then performance increase.

    This is the logical explenation I have found. Of course they could do that with a manual, but not keeping the gas during gear changes or clutch would burn. Is using a by-pass system that keeps the engine running and turbo boosted while gear change is talking place. (We call it bang-bang) because of the sound it makes



    Thanks for the great explanation, Rafael!
    So, by using the bypass valve in the correct way, the boost could be kept high between gearchanges (the system perhaps actuated by pressing the pedal all the way down?), without the need to powershift?
    At least that's what I had in mind, but I'm no engineer.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Rafael from Spain said:
    0-160 and 0-200 there is the same .6 sec difference. So it seems from 160 km/h is very even and then the manual starts to improve. Not from 200km/h

    Still mag. test are going to solve the mistery

    Mike, Rally cars have been using manual pre-boosting turbo systems since the 80s, so it is fairly easy done. (A bit loud but easy)
    Porsche where just lucky with the TIP and VTG. Is not that they pre-boost on purpose. All torque converters keep providing power when changing gear, hence you see the needle going a little bit up before matching the next gear revs. Before this would mean an almost unnoticable pre-boost on the Turbo. With VTG even this small exhaust gas during gear-changes provides a more than reasonable boost, and then performance increase.

    This is the logical explenation I have found. Of course they could do that with a manual, but not keeping the gas during gear changes or clutch would burn. Is using a by-pass system that keeps the engine running and turbo boosted while gear change is talking place. (We call it bang-bang) because of the sound it makes



    Thanks for the great explanation, Rafael!
    So, by using the bypass valve in the correct way, the boost could be kept high between gearchanges (the system perhaps actuated by pressing the pedal all the way down?), without the need to powershift?
    At least that's what I had in mind, but I'm no engineer.



    Found this link. Have not readed buy it should explain system quite clear.

    http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html

    I must say that this systems are (or used to be) very loud. But it was used in the 80s, it is more than possible to do it know with much less sound. I have seen it fitted to a lancer evo and it had an on-off switch also equiped.

    With VTG there is no need to much boost to keep the turbine spining fast so a very mild/light systems should be use

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Whenever the first 997TT with PDK will be available all previous Tip (and most manual) cutomers will realize what old technology they bought. The implications for resale value are quite obvious



    I agree with regard to Tip owners. Tiptronic will be totally obsolete once PDK hits. I would suggest those of you who are ordering Tips drive a car with DSG. The conventional slushbox cannot hold a candle to this gearbox, and therefore will be a dead fish once PDK arrives.

    At least with the manual, you have a transmission that offers that little bit extra involvement that even PDK can't give you.

    Having driven DSG and tiptronic Audis and a manual 911, I would buy a 997 TT with manual or PDK, but never conventional Tiptronic.

    Just my opinion, of course (but don't say I didn't warn you )

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Just my opinion, of course (but don't say I didn't warn you )



    Hmmm, I think I heard this phrase before somewhere here at rennteam...

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Tiptronic will be totally obsolete once PDK hits. I would suggest those of you who are ordering Tips drive a car with DSG. The conventional slushbox cannot hold a candle to this gearbox, and therefore will be a dead fish once PDK arrives.



    That is so untrue , there will always be a significant number of consumers who will always buy a tip irregardless of whether its faster or not ....except now since its proven faster, it makes their choice even more obvious.
    Some people just want to drive very fast during commutes without working too hard at it after a hectic day at work ...that would be me

    Re: 997 TT

    Avantgarde...

    I'm not sure you understand PDK...it can function similar to an automatic if you want it to...but do it with faster shifts and no torque-robbing torque converter.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Avantgarde...

    I'm not sure you understand PDK...it can function similar to an automatic if you want it to...but do it with faster shifts and no torque-robbing torque converter.



    Torque converters are torque-GIVING not torque-robbing devices. When locked-up, they have no losses. When multiplying, they put the engine into a higher-power RPM range. Higher than a manual transmission with the same gear ratios.

    Re: 997 TT

    W8MM,

    I don't claim to be all-knowing about automatic transmissions.

    I guess what I mean is, whatever conventional automatics have that have made them slower than manuals for decades, PDK won't have it.

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    I guess what I mean is, whatever conventional automatics have that have made them slower than manuals for decades, PDK won't have it.



    Have you considered that maybe Turbo TipS won't either?

    Re: 997 TT

    Well, clearly the Tip S is awesome, with awesome acceleration numbers. From what we've know so far, it will be a conventional automatic transmission, presumably with electronic advances that minimize it's negative attributes.

    All I'm saying is , I'll bet the PDK is even better. I can't imagine Porsche coming out with a new, techologically advanced gearbox (i.e. PDK) and have it be slower than the existing Tip. If I were interested in an automatic tranny, that would be enough for me to wait for PDK.

    By the way, it's interesting to me all the emphasis now on how you must make perfect shifts etc. for the manual to be faster to 300kph, achieve the posted times, etc. I'm sure this has always been true of posted manual accel times, but nobody seemed to care until a lot of them started ordering Tips!

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Avantgarde...

    I'm not sure you understand PDK...it can function similar to an automatic if you want it to...but do it with faster shifts and no torque-robbing torque converter.



    Torque converters are torque-GIVING not torque-robbing devices. When locked-up, they have no losses. When multiplying, they put the engine into a higher-power RPM range. Higher than a manual transmission with the same gear ratios.



    I agree that when it's locked, it has no more losses, but a torque converter will always be slower to lock than a conventional clutch.

    Another problem is that a torque converter is much heavier than a normal clutch.

    That story of people thinking that the "new" tiptronic is really better and could compete with a semi automatic (smg, f1 or dsg type) reminds me all people who thought that the Cayman was not a Boxster-based coupe.

    What a good job from the Porsche Marketing department!!

    They sell obsolete things for the price of gold and almost everybody says "how wonderfull..."

    So funny....

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    Well, clearly the Tip S is awesome, with awesome acceleration numbers. From what we've know so far, it will be a conventional automatic transmission, presumably with electronic advances that minimize it's negative attributes.

    All I'm saying is , I'll bet the PDK is even better. I can't imagine Porsche coming out with a new, techologically advanced gearbox (i.e. PDK) and have it be slower than the existing Tip. If I were interested in an automatic tranny, that would be enough for me to wait for PDK.

    By the way, it's interesting to me all the emphasis now on how you must make perfect shifts etc. for the manual to be faster to 300kph, achieve the posted times, etc. I'm sure this has always been true of posted manual accel times, but nobody seemed to care until a lot of them started ordering Tips!



    Yep

    Re: 997 TT

    Quote:
    Lazy Cat said:
    I agree that when it's locked, it has no more losses, but a torque converter will always be slower to lock than a conventional clutch.



    What does this have to do with anything?

    Everyone knows that an auto can shift faster than a human-operated 6-speed. Whatever fraction of a second is required to lock the converter has no effect on the continuation of power flow.

    If you are claiming that a sub-second event, where the torque converter has single-digit percent losses, overcomes all of the other performance benefits, you need to get back on the porch with the other lazy cats

     
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