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    Re: BMW M5

     

    Here is another, I think also regular M5, and this time the M5 wins. AMG came in last.

     


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    Re: BMW M5

     

    In the end, not THAT much slower than my 911 Turbo S. Hmm well maybe a tad more as this race was with the regular Turbo S not the Exclusive.

    If the Panamera Turbo S isn't a hybrid, I probably would have ordered the M5 Competition.


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    Re: BMW M5

    JoeRockhead:

    BMW M5 vs. Cadillac CTS-V, Mercedes-AMG E63 S, Porsche Panamera Turbo

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a19459941/2018-bmw-m5-vs-cadillac-cts-v-mercedes-amg-e63-s-porsche-panamera...

     

     

    The Panamera Turbo coming last is no surprise.

    It's the most pointless car in the whole range. For people that want performance, why stop at the Turbo with only 550hp when the next step up has 680hp? And the regular Panamera GTS has the same twin turbo V8 but only 100hp down. For the price step up from the GTS one only gets 100hp, the same price step up from the Turbo to the Turbo S nets 130HP, plus all the government benefits for hybrids like HOV lane access, tax breaks, insurance, road tax, etc.

     


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    Re: BMW M5

    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    The A45 sedan is the CLA45.

    No, they are two different models.  You can see here the body styles with the 2020 CLA 35 and 2020 A35 (same basic chassis as A45 which is supposedly coming too):

    https://www.mbusa.com/en/future-vehicles#upcoming

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CS

    Thanks. I stand corrected then.

    The CLA is the couple like sedan. The A is the sedan-like sedan SmileySmiley

    Still, they don't bring in the best of the class, the hatchbackSmiley It's the only hatchback that's better than my Golf R.

    Even more strangely, the CLA appears almost similar to the much more expensive CLS.  I was at the local Mercedes dealership last weekend and struggled to tell the two apart when they were displayed next to each other on the forecourt.  Only until viewed in profile, does one tell a difference between the car.


    Re: BMW M5

    Whoopsy:
    Still, they don't bring in the best of the class, the hatchbackSmiley It's the only hatchback that's better than my Golf R.

     

    Yeah, not sure what Americans' hang-up with wagons is - makes much for sense than a sedan.  At least the rear seats fold, but hatch is more practical than trunk for fitting long items and extra height in rear helps too.  For that, we have to buy the GLA45 which is just worse performing due to extra suspension height.  Maybe lowering coilovers would solve that issue, but GLA is probably tuned less for performance in some other ways too...


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    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: BMW M5

    Stealth active (and potentially passive) safety weakness/risk of these heavy performance sedans (esp Panam TTS but also applies to M5/E63) is elevated braking distance in any emergent maneuver on public roads

    Assuming equally fresh MPS4S tires, PCCB and equally alert&decisive driver, an interesting comparison would be such sedans vs a 991TTS Coupe or 991GTS Coupe in such real-world braking/crash avoidance scenarios

    Would guess such sedans' additional mass, despite equal-caliber tires/brakes/wheels/driver, entails substantial differences in braking distance; potential crash avoidance odds; and crash forces upon impact if collision unavoidable


    Re: BMW M5

    Dynamics:

    Stealth active (and potentially passive) safety weakness/risk of these heavy performance sedans (esp Panam TTS but also applies to M5/E63) is elevated braking distance in any emergent maneuver on public roads

    Assuming equally fresh MPS4S tires, PCCB and equally alert&decisive driver, an interesting comparison would be such sedans vs a 991TTS Coupe or 991GTS Coupe in such real-world braking/crash avoidance scenarios

    Would guess such sedans' additional mass, despite equal-caliber tires/brakes/wheels/driver, entails substantial differences in braking distance; potential crash avoidance odds; and crash forces upon impact if collision unavoidable

     

    As per Car and Driver

    991.2 Turbo S, 70mph to 0 133ft

    Panamera Turbo S, 70mph to 0 152ft

    M5 Competition, 70,mph to 0 152ft

    AMG E63 S, 70mpg to 0, 155ft

    Huracan LP610-4, 70mph to 0, 144ft

    BMW M2 Competition 70mph to 0, 155ft

    MW M4 CS, 70mph to 0, 150ft

    So, not really.

    The Panamera, or any Porsche's braking strength, will be more apparent if the stops are done repeatedly to heat soak the system. 

    There is a reason why Porsche's brakes are considered legendary in the car circle. Their philosophy is to go for over kill in the braking department. One reason why you will never see a Porsche ran out of brakes on track. 

    Braking distance is more of a function of tire friction, tire width-especially the front tires, weight distribution, weight of the car matters but the weight distribution matters more. One reason why 911s are always great at braking, the rear engines causes the car to pitch less forward and uses more of the rear brakes to help. Panamera has most of it's weight on the rear, also have one of the biggest brake disc you will ever see at 16.5in diameter in the front. Oh, it also have 0.3g of regen braking, so the physically brakes are actually doing less work than other cars.

    Other lighter cars will have narrower front tires and more weight on the front axle, that won't help with braking distance as most of the work will be done by the narrower front wheels. Panamera Turbo S runs 275 front tires and 315 rears, that's a lot fo rubber to generate friction to stop the car.

    Lastly, in a single car against barrier test, of course the heavier car will probably sustain more damage, but in a multi-car collision, it's simple physics, F=ma, the heavier car wins, always. Look no farther than car/train, car/dumpster, car/semi-trailer collision if you do't believe me. 

    A few years ago an Audi A5 crashed into the back corner of my G63, my G63 has minor damage, broken bumper and buckled trunk door, while the A5's whole frame is bent, literally you can see the bend from the outside. These guys here have seen the pictures I posted.


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    Re: BMW M5

    The Sport Auto 7:35,90 lap on road P Zero tyres. No fancy rubber here.

    Also, two serious driver distractions to consider  i.e. the telephone ringing at the beginning of the lap broken heart  + the dead bird on the windscreen for half the lap.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: BMW M5

    Porker:
    RC:
    996FourEss:

    To be honest do you really need something faster than a Panamera Turbo (without the S and 300 kg)? Different league in terms of looks, quality, lower center of gravity, than an M5. And people move out of the way in the left lane on the autobahn, which doesn’t happen so quickly when you are in the M5.

    M5 and E63S lease offers in Germany are unbeatable, a Panamera Turbo (not Turbo S) which is much slower (it is!), costs around 700 EUR more...per month! Not worth it.

    Speed is not the only argument... A Panamera is much more luxurious, has a different image, ...

    Make no mistake, I like the Panamera Turbo a lot, actually much more than my current E63S with the exception of the exhaust sound (Panamera sounds like crap Smiley) but speaking of image, the Panamera has the image of a high end luxury car here in Germany, the E class (taxi...remember? Smiley) not. This is what I was looking for. Most people who get a M5 or E63S in Germany get it because they prefer a stealthier car, especially as a business car. A Panamera would have been "worst" for my business than a Cayenne or even a 911. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: BMW M5

    RC:
    Porker:
    RC:
    996FourEss:

    To be honest do you really need something faster than a Panamera Turbo (without the S and 300 kg)? Different league in terms of looks, quality, lower center of gravity, than an M5. And people move out of the way in the left lane on the autobahn, which doesn’t happen so quickly when you are in the M5.

    M5 and E63S lease offers in Germany are unbeatable, a Panamera Turbo (not Turbo S) which is much slower (it is!), costs around 700 EUR more...per month! Not worth it.

    Speed is not the only argument... A Panamera is much more luxurious, has a different image, ...

    Make no mistake, I like the Panamera Turbo a lot, actually much more than my current E63S with the exception of the exhaust sound (Panamera sounds like crap Smiley) but speaking of image, the Panamera has the image of a high end luxury car here in Germany, the E class (taxi...remember? Smiley) not. This is what I was looking for. Most people who get a M5 or E63S in Germany get it because they prefer a stealthier car, especially as a business car. A Panamera would have been "worst" for my business than a Cayenne or even a 911. Smiley

    I am sure that price is a serious reason, even if someone has the money for the more expensive car.

    I think that for this class of daily cars price and functionality play a serious role. Someone might do the financial excess for a Lamborghini, Ferrari or McLaren but not so much for a fast saloon.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: BMW M5

    Price is a reason and of course performance (the Panamera Turbo is not at M5 or E63S level) but I like the current Panamera a lot, so... The main problem of the Panamera is it's image of a high end luxury car. Not the best thing for a business car in Germany. This is why the M5 and E63S are often de-badged in Germany.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: BMW M5

    RC:

    Price is a reason and of course performance (the Panamera Turbo is not at M5 or E63S level) but I like the current Panamera a lot, so... The main problem of the Panamera is it's image of a high end luxury car. Not the best thing for a business car in Germany. This is why the M5 and E63S are often de-badged in Germany.

    Yes, I noticed that since the 80s when I started coming to Germany. In many other countries it is exactly the opposite with some people putting higher badges on their cars to make an impression Smiley

     
     

     


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: BMW M5

    reginos:
    RC:

    Price is a reason and of course performance (the Panamera Turbo is not at M5 or E63S level) but I like the current Panamera a lot, so... The main problem of the Panamera is it's image of a high end luxury car. Not the best thing for a business car in Germany. This is why the M5 and E63S are often de-badged in Germany.

    Yes, I noticed that since the 80s when I started coming to Germany. In many other countries it is exactly the opposite with some people putting higher badges on their cars to make an impression Smiley

    One of my wife's female employees loved the 911 I had and suddenly saw the E63S parked in my regular parking spot next to my business. She was shocked, she couldn't understand how I could get an E class instead of a 911. Smiley "So uncool for your husband, how could he do that?".

    A couple of weeks ago, I had to pick up another female employee with my E63S at a location around 60 km away from my hometown. She was so impressed after the ride, at some point I did over 290 kph (the E63S reaches that speed pretty fast) on the Autobahn and first thing she asked was: What kind of car is this, this is no regular Mercedes, isn't it? Smiley I also fully accelerated a couple of times on the Autobahn, she was sitting in the back of the car and she felt as if her stomach gets upside down. Smiley When she got out of the car, she almost fell because she felt sick. I really didn't do anything special to provoke that, I just drove on the Autobahn!
    The next day, she told the other female that the car is insane, a rocket, a monster. I was cool again. Smiley Smiley

    On the other hand, my daughter's driver ed teacher asked her (after I dropped her off at the driving school) if my exhaust is damaged because the car is so loud. We don't know if she said that as a joke or meant it seriously because she didn't smile when she said that. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: BMW M5

    RC:
    reginos:
    RC:

    Price is a reason and of course performance (the Panamera Turbo is not at M5 or E63S level) but I like the current Panamera a lot, so... The main problem of the Panamera is it's image of a high end luxury car. Not the best thing for a business car in Germany. This is why the M5 and E63S are often de-badged in Germany.

    Yes, I noticed that since the 80s when I started coming to Germany. In many other countries it is exactly the opposite with some people putting higher badges on their cars to make an impression Smiley

    One of my wife's female employees loved the 911 I had and suddenly saw the E63S parked in my regular parking spot next to my business. She was shocked, she couldn't understand how I could get an E class instead of a 911. Smiley "So uncool for your husband, how could he do that?".

    A couple of weeks ago, I had to pick up another female employee with my E63S at a location around 60 km away from my hometown. She was so impressed after the ride, at some point I did over 290 kph (the E63S reaches that speed pretty fast) on the Autobahn and first thing she asked was: What kind of car is this, this is no regular Mercedes, isn't it? Smiley I also fully accelerated a couple of times on the Autobahn, she was sitting in the back of the car and she felt as if her stomach gets upside down. Smiley When she got out of the car, she almost fell because she felt sick. I really didn't do anything special to provoke that, I just drove on the Autobahn!
    The next day, she told the other female that the car is insane, a rocket, a monster. I was cool again. Smiley Smiley

    On the other hand, my daughter's driver ed teacher asked her (after I dropped her off at the driving school) if my exhaust is damaged because the car is so loud. We don't know if she said that as a joke or meant it seriously because she didn't smile when she said that. Smiley

    Nice stories Smiley

    I was always fond of what the British call Q-cars. Powerful cars that can handle but within the body of a standard/economy version. I think the Mercedes 300SEL 6.3 was one of the first in this category.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: BMW M5

    Yes, I like "stealth" looking cars, my favorites still remain the Audi RS4 (Porsche engine version) and the Mercedes E500. I also like the old Audi RS6 V10 a lot, almost bought a used one a couple of years ago.

    My son's favorite "classic" is the M5 V10. We saw one for 35k EUR and only (original) 40k km two years ago...it looked pristine. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: BMW M5

    RC:

    Yes, I like "stealth" looking cars, my favorites still remain the Audi RS4 (Porsche engine version) and the Mercedes E500. I also like the old Audi RS6 V10 a lot, almost bought a used one a couple of years ago.

    The E500 was developed by Porsche for Mercedes. In the last 25 years M-B have gone a long way, with AMG rivaling Porsche and dominating F1.

    My son's favorite "classic" is the M5 V10. We saw one for 35k EUR and only (original) 40k km two years ago...it looked pristine. 

    Smiley One of the few and last V10 engines. The Chris Bangle body style looks unique nowadays, although controversial at the time.

     


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: BMW M5

    I really liked the Buick Grand National for that reason. Guys were modifying them to run 10 second quarter miles back in the late 80s. Those were insane times back then.

    673C535B-76E9-47AF-B103-4C10CFFFAEE0.jpeg


    Re: BMW M5

    JoeRockhead:

    I really liked the Buick Grand National for that reason. Guys were modifying them to run 10 second quarter miles back in the late 80s. Those were insane times back then.

    673C535B-76E9-47AF-B103-4C10CFFFAEE0.jpeg

     

    These are like the ultimate sleeper!

    Kids who have no idea about them get blown away in their ricers.


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    Re: BMW M5

    am very tempted by the A45 AMG (hatchback) as well....kind of a Mercedes Lancia integrale…...


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    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: BMW M5

    reginos:
    RC:

    Yes, I like "stealth" looking cars, my favorites still remain the Audi RS4 (Porsche engine version) and the Mercedes E500. I also like the old Audi RS6 V10 a lot, almost bought a used one a couple of years ago.

    The E500 was developed by Porsche for Mercedes. In the last 25 years M-B have gone a long way, with AMG rivaling Porsche and dominating F1.

    My son's favorite "classic" is the M5 V10. We saw one for 35k EUR and only (original) 40k km two years ago...it looked pristine. 

    Smiley One of the few and last V10 engines. The Chris Bangle body style looks unique nowadays, although controversial at the time.

     

    I had an M5 E60 for 4 years and loved the car and esp loved the SMG, although that gearbox was unreliable like crazy. Both, the V10 and the SMG will be missed


    Re: BMW M5

    Whoopsy:
    JoeRockhead:

    I really liked the Buick Grand National for that reason. Guys were modifying them to run 10 second quarter miles back in the late 80s. Those were insane times back then.

    673C535B-76E9-47AF-B103-4C10CFFFAEE0.jpeg

     

    These are like the ultimate sleeper!

    Kids who have no idea about them get blown away in their ricers.

    Had nearly forgotten about that car. I also recall that there was a GNX version with an additional transmission cooler and beefier suspension components.  I also recall that numerous collectors put a few cars into storage as the last of the true performance cars. If only they knew what the future would hold.


    Re: BMW M5

    Thoughtful points, Whoopsy

    Am impressed by over 10% shorter braking distances for 991TTS vs performance sedans

    However, major unknown is condition of tires of press cars; that alone can account for major (possibly misleading) differences in performance test data


    Re: BMW M5

    RC, let me get this right, you pick up an employee of your wife, she sits in the back and you go 290 on the autobahn? I don’t go 290 on the autobahn with my wife even, with someone I don’t know well, it is quite aggressive no?


    Re: BMW M5

    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    The A45 sedan is the CLA45.

    No, they are two different models.  You can see here the body styles with the 2020 CLA 35 and 2020 A35 (same basic chassis as A45 which is supposedly coming too):

    https://www.mbusa.com/en/future-vehicles#upcoming

    1564676229883amg.PNG


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    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    Thanks. I stand corrected then.

    The CLA is the couple like sedan. The A is the sedan-like sedan SmileySmiley

    Still, they don't bring in the best of the class, the hatchbackSmiley It's the only hatchback that's better than my Golf R.


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    I want to get a CLA35.


    Re: BMW M5

    996FourEss:

    RC, let me get this right, you pick up an employee of your wife, she sits in the back and you go 290 on the autobahn? I don’t go 290 on the autobahn with my wife even, with someone I don’t know well, it is quite aggressive no?

    You maybe don't know, but RC has laser vision Smiley


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    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: BMW M5

    996FourEss:

    RC, let me get this right, you pick up an employee of your wife, she sits in the back and you go 290 on the autobahn? I don’t go 290 on the autobahn with my wife even, with someone I don’t know well, it is quite aggressive no?

     

    Depending on traffic 290km/hr in a capable car is nothing. I was cruising at 260km/hr in both my Turbo S and GT2RS when I was in Germany, and I wasn't even trying to gun for it. 

    One just have to look far far up ahead and anticipate.

     

     


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    Re: BMW M5

    reginos:

    Porsche might have a slight edge over BMW in terms of dynamics (e.g. brakes) but someone must be crazy to pay the 50%, extra that Porsche usually asks for its models. The 911 might justify some  premium and more so the GT models but not the sedans and SUVs.

    The Porsche over BMW price differential is money down the drain really because Porsche is neither exclusive nor rare anymore and other brands like BMW or M-B have improved enormously. It is not as if someone throws money into Lamborghini ownership, for example.

    BTW I saw a Lamborghini Urus for the first time today in black and it looked amazing kiss The king of SUVs.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    Nothing in the Porsche range really appeals to me any more - at least not for sensible money. SWMBO has hip and back issues that I think sooner or later will bring sports car ownership to an end for us. Quite taken with the latest X3, in particular the  X3 M40D. Plenty quick enough, not too large to be impossible to park anywhere or drive down narrow roads, versatile and comfortable. I actually think it is a better car in many ways than a Macan, and certainly better value for money.


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    Porsche Boxster 981 GTS Carrara white / VW Golf GTI 5dr DSG Tornado Red


    Re: BMW M5

    dreamcar:
    reginos:

    Porsche might have a slight edge over BMW in terms of dynamics (e.g. brakes) but someone must be crazy to pay the 50%, extra that Porsche usually asks for its models. The 911 might justify some  premium and more so the GT models but not the sedans and SUVs.

    The Porsche over BMW price differential is money down the drain really because Porsche is neither exclusive nor rare anymore and other brands like BMW or M-B have improved enormously. It is not as if someone throws money into Lamborghini ownership, for example.

    BTW I saw a Lamborghini Urus for the first time today in black and it looked amazing kiss The king of SUVs.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    Nothing in the Porsche range really appeals to me any more - at least not for sensible money. SWMBO has hip and back issues that I think sooner or later will bring sports car ownership to an end for us. Quite taken with the latest X3, in particular the  X3 M40D. Plenty quick enough, not too large to be impossible to park anywhere or drive down narrow roads, versatile and comfortable. I actually think it is a better car in many ways than a Macan, and certainly better value for money.

     

    Might as well go down to the X1. 

    The current X3 size wise is like the old X5, the current X1 is not much smaller than the original X3. 

    Current BMW model range is quite attractive actually. The only reason I didn't buy the M5 the other day was because my Panamera Turbo S is arriving soon, and it's the only thing Porsche currently makes that I haven't owned yet. And also for the hybrid system.

     


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    Re: BMW M5

    dreamcar:
    reginos:

    Porsche might have a slight edge over BMW in terms of dynamics (e.g. brakes) but someone must be crazy to pay the 50%, extra that Porsche usually asks for its models. The 911 might justify some  premium and more so the GT models but not the sedans and SUVs.

    The Porsche over BMW price differential is money down the drain really because Porsche is neither exclusive nor rare anymore and other brands like BMW or M-B have improved enormously. It is not as if someone throws money into Lamborghini ownership, for example.

    BTW I saw a Lamborghini Urus for the first time today in black and it looked amazing kiss The king of SUVs.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    Nothing in the Porsche range really appeals to me any more - at least not for sensible money. SWMBO has hip and back issues that I think sooner or later will bring sports car ownership to an end for us. Quite taken with the latest X3, in particular the  X3 M40D. Plenty quick enough, not too large to be impossible to park anywhere or drive down narrow roads, versatile and comfortable. I actually think it is a better car in many ways than a Macan, and certainly better value for money.

    So true! Sensible money is the key word.

    I am sorry to hear that about your wife's constraint. Please give her my regards.

    As to Porsche non-sportscars they are expensive without offering something so special vis a vis the more reasonably priced Mercedes or BMW.

    I also like the X2 which is a very a good drive and IMO a nice design. If you don't need large spaces test drive one. However, the X3 is a more serious and larger SUV. I see one very often in the parking area of my mother's building and I like the design, even in a champagne-like colour which is not my favourite.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     



     
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