Crown

Forum - Thread


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I don't get the Mezger discussion here - OF COURSE NEW things are better than the old ones - no-one argues that old was better than new - but to call us now "die hard" generation is ridiculous ! We just love our cars that usually run quite faultlessly - even in heavy tuned states. This is like me saying we have a lot of kids here on RT that just cannot live without having the latest toys and only the "latest lease is the greatest" - rubbish. Actually got the new Sport Auto total times and summary numbers and look how many old engines are still above the new ones 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC, I fully understand and agree with most of your points.

    At the same time, both the need for a new GT road engine and a new GT race engine should have been obvious for some time. Sure, emission standards for road vehilcles get harder to meet all the time and GT race regulation standards are likely to evolve meaningfully in the next couple of years, may be bringing back turbo engines to GT racing.

    What it boils down to is that Porsche knew they were going to need both types of engine in the foreseeable future, but mostly likely for primarily financial reasons they procrastinated on development of either a GT road or GT race engine.

    The issues around the 911 RSR homologation you rightly point out versus timing of the GT3 road car development just shows how bad their strategic planning must have been...too much short term improvisation and opportunism in my view.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    By the way, I am indirectly affected by the GT3's engine issue, as I have had the upcoming GT3 RS on order for a long time and its introduction/delivery are being pushed back for obvious reasons...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Can someone please tell me what engine Porsche is planning to use in their 911 race cars beyond 2014? I was always under the impression that it will be the 9A1 based engine in the GT3 and new RS. Is this not the case?

    I am not a Mezger fanatic, but have owned a number of Mezger GT3s and love every one of them. I even own the vanity plate "MEZGER" in my state.  But I'm a guy who likes advances in technology and am not particularly sentimental. I was close to buying a 991 GT3 until the whole saga started.  The one thing that I like about Mezger over the new engine is that Mezger feels more raw, more like a race car engine or motorcycle engine, starting with the uneven idle. I will miss that for sure. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Since I have skin in this game (my GT3 is sitting in PDI but no delivery date) here are my impressions.

    Porsche messed up by putting this car into service before it was ready. They had indications there were serious issues with the engine. Instead, they took the Ferrari approach and allowed customers to do the R&D for them.

    Porsche then compounded the problem by going into total communication black out mode treating the issue as if this was only a factory problem forgetting that they had delivered close to 800 cars and told owners to stop driving them. But for the internet, I would wager Porsche to this day would not have communicated with the owners. To acknowledge failed engineering/or part is not Porsche's way.

    To their credit, they are solving the engine problem by taking probably the most expensive solution replacing all the engines. In addition, they are supplying owners with cars (I pick up my loaner 911 Saturday) to drive while their engines are replaced. Furthermore, they are discussing financial compensation in  appropriate cases to make owners whole.

    Hopefully, in the future Porsche recognizes the importance of communications with its customer base in good AND bad times.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    WAY:

    Can someone please tell me what engine Porsche is planning to use in their 911 race cars beyond 2014? I was always under the impression that it will be the 9A1 based engine in the GT3 and new RS. Is this not the case?

    I am not a Mezger fanatic, but have owned a number of Mezger GT3s and love every one of them. I even own the vanity plate "MEZGER" in my state.  But I'm a guy who likes advances in technology and am not particularly sentimental. I was close to buying a 991 GT3 until the whole saga started.  The one thing that I like about Mezger over the new engine is that Mezger feels more raw, more like a race car engine or motorcycle engine, starting with the uneven idle. I will miss that for sure. 

    You will see the current engine in the RSR until end of 2015 at least. Most likely until the end of 2016. New GTE regs will determine what  type of engine will be most appropriate after that.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I am not a big fan of any of the water cooled cars - but I am interested in having an engine that is used in the race car. THAT SIMPLE.  Everything I have heard is merely an excuse (racing regulations, technical challenges, financial advantages, political (green)) for not racing the new engine AND NOT an endorsement of its endurance capabilities or proof of anything.  Just because we can state the mezger is old and outdated does not mean the NEW engine is better on the track.  Not yet.  It is an unknown and what we do know for certain presently is that all new engines will be installed - which have been tested even less than the current ones.  the fact that the mezger, in all its simplicity, suffered years of teething pains and modifications to make it the winner it eventually turned into should not make us feel better about the 'untested' nature of the NEW engine.  It will also go through many upgrades and discoveries of weaknesses - like it already has since the 996.

    I believe that when we speak of mezger what we really mean is a link to the engine used in the RSR - on a race track.  As soon as the 'new' engine proves itself in racing and the street car is based on that engine Porsche will be on the right track.  Until then all this talk about the great new engine and all its advances is silly while none of the GT3 wheels are actually able to move.  Just saying.  Good news is that when the NEW engine is used in racing (maybe) all 911s will be able to claim some link to racing again, not just the GT3.  So smile and look forward to that - but don't pretend we are there.

    Now - for all the explanations for why we can't have PDK on the mezger I totally failed to understand why we cant have a manual on the new engine other than the 'rear wheel steering' - give me a break!  If the new engine is so great we should be able to have both - except Porsche knows better for us.  Those who argue we should not even entertain anything but PDK should just be happy that they have their choice statisfied AND understand that some have other preferences.  Is it that hard to understand.  It is not a debate that makes sense any longer - it is simply one side trying to impose its will and the other wanting choice.   So why take the side of limiting choice - even if you love PDK.  It is not going to cost the PDK owner more because Porsche will sell more cars as a result.  We are not like F-car owners who can't shift.

    Ask yourself - which is better a) forcing a change or b) preserving choice? 

    Again those who want to restrict choice are millitant and down right condecending to those who simply want a choice.  Nothing in my position takes away their choice to own PDK.  If they are not interested in manuals then don't buy one. 

    I bought a NEW manual transmission Sonata as a second car not because I wanted to be faster than ANYONE - I enjoy shifting.

    It will be interesting to see how long the engine installs will take and what will hapen to the old engines.  (I would bet they will be used after being rebuilt at the factory - at least 90% of the components and accessories will be). 

    Cheers

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Spyderidol:
    WAY:

    Can someone please tell me what engine Porsche is planning to use in their 911 race cars beyond 2014? I was always under the impression that it will be the 9A1 based engine in the GT3 and new RS. Is this not the case?

    I am not a Mezger fanatic, but have owned a number of Mezger GT3s and love every one of them. I even own the vanity plate "MEZGER" in my state.  But I'm a guy who likes advances in technology and am not particularly sentimental. I was close to buying a 991 GT3 until the whole saga started.  The one thing that I like about Mezger over the new engine is that Mezger feels more raw, more like a race car engine or motorcycle engine, starting with the uneven idle. I will miss that for sure. 

    You will see the current engine in the RSR until end of 2015 at least. Most likely until the end of 2016. New GTE regs will determine what  type of engine will be most appropriate after that.

    What about for Cup cars? They are not governed  by any regs surely as they are their own series? So isn't Porsche using the 991 GT3 engine for the cup cars?????


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The problem is all Porsche’s making IMO.  They marketed the previous GT3s with a race proven engine and a proportion (perhaps many) of the customer base bought into this philosophy.  The old GT3s are icons, with an iconic engine that is perceived as bullet proof.   Replacing an icon and keeping your customers onside requires care as the furore over PDK only has shown.

    Inevitably the Mezger had to be replaced at some point but from a marketing standpoint it was an incredibly risky strategy rolling the new engine out to the road cars first, especially as the new engine is so much cheaper and to the uninitiated based on the Carrera engine.  One season in the race cars to iron out problems and (hopefully) prove its performance would have done much to allay customer fears.  As it is, events have merely confirmed the very worst of customers’ fears.   If regulations made this approach difficult, they could have created a one make series. 

    Unfairly or not, Porsche look as if they have been penny pinching in development and bringing a car to market that isn’t ready.  I have no doubt that the 991 GT3 is and will be a brilliant car and that Porsche will implement a robust fix to the current issues.  But I also think they have been very careless with their halo product.


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    olli:

    RC, I fully understand and agree with most of your points.

    At the same time, both the need for a new GT road engine and a new GT race engine should have been obvious for some time. Sure, emission standards for road vehilcles get harder to meet all the time and GT race regulation standards are likely to evolve meaningfully in the next couple of years, may be bringing back turbo engines to GT racing.

    What it boils down to is that Porsche knew they were going to need both types of engine in the foreseeable future, but mostly likely for primarily financial reasons they procrastinated on development of either a GT road or GT race engine.

    The issues around the 911 RSR homologation you rightly point out versus timing of the GT3 road car development just shows how bad their strategic planning must have been...too much short term improvisation and opportunism in my view.

    Take the 991 Turbo S for example: Actually, I expected a completely new engine, the tri-turbo rumor wasn't far fetched. What happened? They are planning a completely new engine for the next generation. Is the current Turbo/S engine that bad? Probably not really (unless you plan to tune the engine) but we customers always want something new and especially something better, right?! Smiley

    I still think that Porsche should cut down on profit on 911 (and the future "960") models and keep profits high on high volume models like the Cayenne and now the Macan. The 911 actually IS Porsche, Porsche lives from it's heritage and reputation, so do the other models in the Porsche model line. When someone thinks Porsche, he thinks 911. This is a fact. So why not make the 911 even more special? Just imagine what Porsche could do with let's say a 5k EUR lower margin for each 911 model? With 5k EUR, you can do a lot with these cars and Porsche would still make a nice profit.

    The GT3 had to happen now and Porsche was just unlucky, this is the truth. It happens. 

    What I expect from the next 911 generation (Carrera, Turbo, GT models) is much more demanding: I want amazing performance, a completely new interior (with slightly different interiors depending on the model type) and special features AND design specific features for a certain model. The Turbo/S should have different head lights and tail lights for example, so should the GT models. There needs to be a bigger differentiation if Porsche asks almost 110k EUR more for a Turbo compared to the Carrera base model.  The current 991 Turbo S is very close to my pain limit. With 600 hp and a different (more classy) interior, I wouldn't have cared about the 205k EUR the car costs. At the current state though, I kind of feel (a little bit) bad about this kind of money. Luckily, I leased this car. Not sure if I will go for the facelift though, this remains to be seen. Porsche needs to add value to their sports cars, otherwise people won't be willing to pay a premium for a "mass production" (compared to other manufacturers in the segment) car. I'm sorry to say that but this is the truth. The next 911 generation will be a game changer for Porsche, I'm not so sure they realize it. Simply because the Macan will dilute the brand further and people who are interesting in the 911 will think twice before spending so much money for a 911. Believe it or not but I am 100% sure this will happen at some point in the future. People don't care to pay a premium for exclusivity but when exclusivity gets lost, well... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GR:

    The problem is all Porsche’s making IMO.  They marketed the previous GT3s with a race proven engine and a proportion (perhaps many) of the customer base bought into this philosophy.  The old GT3s are icons, with an iconic engine that is perceived as bullet proof.   Replacing an icon and keeping your customers onside requires care as the furore over PDK only has shown.

    Inevitably the Mezger had to be replaced at some point but from a marketing standpoint it was an incredibly risky strategy rolling the new engine out to the road cars first, especially as the new engine is so much cheaper and to the uninitiated based on the Carrera engine.  One season in the race cars to iron out problems and (hopefully) prove its performance would have done much to allay customer fears.  As it is, events have merely confirmed the very worst of customers’ fears.   If regulations made this approach difficult, they could have created a one make series. 

    Unfairly or not, Porsche look as if they have been penny pinching in development and bringing a car to market that isn’t ready.  I have no doubt that the 991 GT3 is and will be a brilliant car and that Porsche will implement a robust fix to the current issues.  But I also think they have been very careless with their halo product.

    According to Porsche engineers, the current 991 engines are more reliable than the older Mezger engines ever were. They are also more environmental friendly. You can argue all day long that the Mezger design was bullet proof but the statistics at Porsche seem to prove something else. Yes, cost was certainly ONE of the reasons to go for a new engine but I think Kreso explained quite well why Porsche abandoned the Mezger engine design.

    We can argue all day long about engines. You have your facts, based on internet forums and maybe personal experience(s) from friends or people you know but Porsche has statistical numbers. I trust the numbers more. Smiley Also please do not compare the Mezger based racing engines. There is no warranty for these engines, they are refurbished/maintained in a completely different manner than street engines, the comparison is ridiculous. As to the claim that the Mezger engines in the previous 911 GT models were more reliable than the latest 991 GT3 engine generation: Well, the current issue doesn't really count. It was a production start issue. We can only make a valid judgement about this engine after a year or two or more. So if someone claims that the current 991 GT3 engine is bad, has design flaws, is too cheap, bla bla bla...this is...bla bla bla. Nothing else.

    I know, I know...in the past, things were always better Smiley ... just ask my 80 year old mother. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    BjoernB:

    I don't get the Mezger discussion here - OF COURSE NEW things are better than the old ones - no-one argues that old was better than new - but to call us now "die hard" generation is ridiculous ! We just love our cars that usually run quite faultlessly - even in heavy tuned states. This is like me saying we have a lot of kids here on RT that just cannot live without having the latest toys and only the "latest lease is the greatest" - rubbish. Actually got the new Sport Auto total times and summary numbers and look how many old engines are still above the new ones 

     youre the man - fully agree - especially on the bs for kids..- sorry for being offtopic here..

    Hope your beasts are doing fineSmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Spyderidol:
    WAY:

    Can someone please tell me what engine Porsche is planning to use in their 911 race cars beyond 2014? I was always under the impression that it will be the 9A1 based engine in the GT3 and new RS. Is this not the case?

    I am not a Mezger fanatic, but have owned a number of Mezger GT3s and love every one of them. I even own the vanity plate "MEZGER" in my state.  But I'm a guy who likes advances in technology and am not particularly sentimental. I was close to buying a 991 GT3 until the whole saga started.  The one thing that I like about Mezger over the new engine is that Mezger feels more raw, more like a race car engine or motorcycle engine, starting with the uneven idle. I will miss that for sure. 

    You will see the current engine in the RSR until end of 2015 at least. Most likely until the end of 2016. New GTE regs will determine what  type of engine will be most appropriate after that.

     Always appreciate your input here when it comes to racing regulations - thanks - this is real "added value" to rennteam :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    BjoernB:

    I don't get the Mezger discussion here - OF COURSE NEW things are better than the old ones - no-one argues that old was better than new - but to call us now "die hard" generation is ridiculous ! We just love our cars that usually run quite faultlessly - even in heavy tuned states. This is like me saying we have a lot of kids here on RT that just cannot live without having the latest toys and only the "latest lease is the greatest" - rubbish. Actually got the new Sport Auto total times and summary numbers and look how many old engines are still above the new ones 

    In the times of less electronics and less emissions regulations, things were different. This is also the reason tuners have huge problems to get more power of the current engines. They have been engineered to perfection, there isn't much to do. So you actually need to look at it the other way around: The PAST engineering was flawed, so tuners were able to extract more power, to find what engineers had "missed". The CURRENT engineering is much better, so is technology and it has been perfected. Believe it or not.

    As to the "old engines being above the new ones" (not sure I got this right):  Do you have examples? The new GT3 and the new Turbo S are still faster than their "older" counter parts. They are cleaner, eat less fuel and they have better performance. Not sure I got your point. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:
    Spyderidol:
    WAY:

    Can someone please tell me what engine Porsche is planning to use in their 911 race cars beyond 2014? I was always under the impression that it will be the 9A1 based engine in the GT3 and new RS. Is this not the case?

    I am not a Mezger fanatic, but have owned a number of Mezger GT3s and love every one of them. I even own the vanity plate "MEZGER" in my state.  But I'm a guy who likes advances in technology and am not particularly sentimental. I was close to buying a 991 GT3 until the whole saga started.  The one thing that I like about Mezger over the new engine is that Mezger feels more raw, more like a race car engine or motorcycle engine, starting with the uneven idle. I will miss that for sure. 

    You will see the current engine in the RSR until end of 2015 at least. Most likely until the end of 2016. New GTE regs will determine what  type of engine will be most appropriate after that.

     Always appreciate your input here when it comes to racing regulations - thanks - this is real "added value" to rennteam :)

    Thank you for your kind words.1395161255136shake.gif


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    olli:

    RC, I fully understand and agree with most of your points.

    At the same time, both the need for a new GT road engine and a new GT race engine should have been obvious for some time. Sure, emission standards for road vehilcles get harder to meet all the time and GT race regulation standards are likely to evolve meaningfully in the next couple of years, may be bringing back turbo engines to GT racing.

    What it boils down to is that Porsche knew they were going to need both types of engine in the foreseeable future, but mostly likely for primarily financial reasons they procrastinated on development of either a GT road or GT race engine.

    The issues around the 911 RSR homologation you rightly point out versus timing of the GT3 road car development just shows how bad their strategic planning must have been...too much short term improvisation and opportunism in my view.

    Take the 991 Turbo S for example: Actually, I expected a completely new engine, the tri-turbo rumor wasn't far fetched. What happened? They are planning a completely new engine for the next generation. Is the current Turbo/S engine that bad? Probably not really (unless you plan to tune the engine) but we customers always want something new and especially something better, right?! Smiley

    I still think that Porsche should cut down on profit on 911 (and the future "960") models and keep profits high on high volume models like the Cayenne and now the Macan. The 911 actually IS Porsche, Porsche lives from it's heritage and reputation, so do the other models in the Porsche model line. When someone thinks Porsche, he thinks 911. This is a fact. So why not make the 911 even more special? Just imagine what Porsche could do with let's say a 5k EUR lower margin for each 911 model? With 5k EUR, you can do a lot with these cars and Porsche would still make a nice profit.

    The GT3 had to happen now and Porsche was just unlucky, this is the truth. It happens. 

    What I expect from the next 911 generation (Carrera, Turbo, GT models) is much more demanding: I want amazing performance, a completely new interior (with slightly different interiors depending on the model type) and special features AND design specific features for a certain model. The Turbo/S should have different head lights and tail lights for example, so should the GT models. There needs to be a bigger differentiation if Porsche asks almost 110k EUR more for a Turbo compared to the Carrera base model.  The current 991 Turbo S is very close to my pain limit. With 600 hp and a different (more classy) interior, I wouldn't have cared about the 205k EUR the car costs. At the current state though, I kind of feel (a little bit) bad about this kind of money. Luckily, I leased this car. Not sure if I will go for the facelift though, this remains to be seen. Porsche needs to add value to their sports cars, otherwise people won't be willing to pay a premium for a "mass production" (compared to other manufacturers in the segment) car. I'm sorry to say that but this is the truth. The next 911 generation will be a game changer for Porsche, I'm not so sure they realize it. Simply because the Macan will dilute the brand further and people who are interesting in the 911 will think twice before spending so much money for a 911. Believe it or not but I am 100% sure this will happen at some point in the future. People don't care to pay a premium for exclusivity but when exclusivity gets lost, well... Smiley

     RC,

    I bow my hat for you with regard to your above post, its exactly what I feel as well. Not in any other forum have the mods put that much criticism together, but your "solutions" are also spot on.

    Thank you - Rennteam members need to use their contacts to promote RC to Porche CEO - I would be happy with that.

    I dont buy your "excuse" of the 991 GT3 engine disaster for 100% yet..but for the rest I´m 100% with you..Smiley..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    ... Well, the current issue doesn't really count. It was a production start issue. ...

    Are you able to elaborate on that in any detail at all?

    The official communication from Porsche was rightly described as "Pythian", and, not unexpectedly, people seem to be reading into it whatever they are predisposed to believe.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Regarding the 991 GT3 engine issue, I rely on rumors and information I get from unofficial (NOT internet forums or hearsay or dealers but people close to Porsche development and suppliers) and official sources. They add up, so I guess nobody is lying or exaggerating (or vice versa). Only two cars are affected but it would take too long to open up all engines and to evaluate the culprit. So the current solution is quite generous (and needed) but of course not everybody, especially those who already took delivery of the GT3, will be happy. I get that but what else could be done?

    As to my next generation 911 proposal(s): I doubt Porsche will listen to me (or similar voices) BUT I know for a fact that something is going on regarding this matter and that the interior of the current 911 will improve. I just hope Porsche does the right thing, they make huge profit and it is finally time they show their 911 customers some courtesy. Especially since the competition is getting stronger by every day.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    well calling the old engineering "flawed" (?) It were juut different times, less electronics and clever tuners could use this loopwhole. Todays electronics just help the manufacturer more..but the old tuning from RUF; Gemballa etc had its charme also..today this doesnt exist anymore..and apart from RUF all Porsche tuners will go bust anyway (sadly).

    Of course the new models are faster then the older ones..but this is not the point RC, this discussion here is about "reliability"..and so far the new GT3 hasnt shown anything, even worse..it cant move its wheels - hey, come on, after all its a GT3..and not a panamera diesel for grandpa..

    Last thing, think about the GT2RS..it did the sport Auto test in 7:24..it will still take some time before a 991 wil beat that with ease..and Im not talking about a 7:23..Im talking about something really that beats it by 5-7seconds..whether that will ever happen? Basically, Im just trying to say that some of this "old metal" isnt that slow, and in an exceptional case its even very very fast..and solidSmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    GR:

    The problem is all Porsche’s making IMO.  They marketed the previous GT3s with a race proven engine and a proportion (perhaps many) of the customer base bought into this philosophy.  The old GT3s are icons, with an iconic engine that is perceived as bullet proof.   Replacing an icon and keeping your customers onside requires care as the furore over PDK only has shown.

    Inevitably the Mezger had to be replaced at some point but from a marketing standpoint it was an incredibly risky strategy rolling the new engine out to the road cars first, especially as the new engine is so much cheaper and to the uninitiated based on the Carrera engine.  One season in the race cars to iron out problems and (hopefully) prove its performance would have done much to allay customer fears.  As it is, events have merely confirmed the very worst of customers’ fears.   If regulations made this approach difficult, they could have created a one make series. 

    Unfairly or not, Porsche look as if they have been penny pinching in development and bringing a car to market that isn’t ready.  I have no doubt that the 991 GT3 is and will be a brilliant car and that Porsche will implement a robust fix to the current issues.  But I also think they have been very careless with their halo product.

    According to Porsche engineers, the current 991 engines are more reliable than the older Mezger engines ever were. They are also more environmental friendly. You can argue all day long that the Mezger design was bullet proof but the statistics at Porsche seem to prove something else. Yes, cost was certainly ONE of the reasons to go for a new engine but I think Kreso explained quite well why Porsche abandoned the Mezger engine design.

    We can argue all day long about engines. You have your facts, based on internet forums and maybe personal experience(s) from friends or people you know but Porsche has statistical numbers. I trust the numbers more. Smiley Also please do not compare the Mezger based racing engines. There is no warranty for these engines, they are refurbished/maintained in a completely different manner than street engines, the comparison is ridiculous. As to the claim that the Mezger engines in the previous 911 GT models were more reliable than the latest 991 GT3 engine generation: Well, the current issue doesn't really count. It was a production start issue. We can only make a valid judgement about this engine after a year or two or more. So if someone claims that the current 991 GT3 engine is bad, has design flaws, is too cheap, bla bla bla...this is...bla bla bla. Nothing else.

    I know, I know...in the past, things were always better Smiley ... just ask my 80 year old mother. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    RC, I don't think you got my post.  I was talking about the perception of the Mezger and how Porshce had to manage customers perceptions/expectations.  That it needed replacing was not a point I questioned (I fully understand why a new engine is needed).  They ignored the risk that that their marketing approach could back fire if the new engine had teething problems.  Unfortunately, the teething problems have been spectacular and hence my comment that they have been careless.  From an engineering perspective I said the car is and will be brilliant with a robust fix to the engine.


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    .... Only two cars are affected but it would take too long to open up all engines and to evaluate the culprit...--

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Christian, as always, your information is top-notch and has been really valuable to the people who saw their cars being towed away. (Not that I have the feeling many appreciate it, but that's another thing :-P)

    I understand that in the short term, it is easier to replace an entire engine than to get it out, open it up, put the repair in place, close it up and the re-assemble the car. But somehow, I have a hard time believing that Porsche will be going to sit on a huge pile of "suspect" GT3 engines. I can imagine they'll prepare 50 new engines, take 50 old ones out, repair the returned 50 suspect engines to new state, and build those into the next batch if possible... can you shed some light on this? Would be interesting to know from a logistical, technical but also legal point of view...

    On another note, someone wrote that Porsche needs to provide more detail regarding the "piston-rod screw connection", and whether it was a design flaw or something else.
    I disagree with this. They can't and they won't because it won't do any good: They found the problem, they found a solve (hopefully) and they will implement that. That's all you need to know.
    Giving more detail will only do either Porsche or the supplier damage, and what will it yield?

    I think that this whole issue is hugely inflated by third parties:
    Yes, there may have been a flaw in the car, And no, that should have never happened. But I think many people fail to realize how complicated cars are nowadays. It's almost impossible to design and engineer such a complicated piece of technology without a single flaw in it. I'm actually quite surprised these type of things don't happen more often. Also, I think Porsche stood up and took their responsibility.
    Yes, it is very sad for people who saw their brand sparking new car being towed off or have to wait for a long time to get it back. But at least they stepped up to fix the problem. Or has everyone forgotten the IMS or RMS issues with te 996?

    Let's be happy they adressed the problem and enjoy the vouchers for porsche trackdays they'll probably hand out when all's done and dusted...


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    KresoF1:

    Follow up...

    Porsche found out what is the problem and solution is a very costly one for them-new engines. Yes, they learned their lesson the hard way. BUT, lesson is OVER. BTW, how many official engine problem cases? TWO, out of more then 700 GT3s produced... Yes, even I as very big Porsche fan was dissapointed with GT3 engine problem but... Some people simply created a histeria like situation. This thread become inflated with speculations, mostly by old GT3 owners and fans(heavy Mezgeroin addicts).

    What is a old GT3 Mezger base 997 fan dream?

    991 GT3 with:

    -Manual gearbox

    -NO PDK even as an option

    -hydrualic servo steering if it must be(even better option NO servo steering at all)

    -Mezger based engine extended to 4.0L(just, in its 4.0L latest version this engine is not a bulletproof any more. Do not belive in that? OK.Smiley)

    Just... Mezger is an old design. It CAN NOT use any current production DCT(PDK) gearbox be it from Graziano(used by Mclaren, Audi/Lambo Huracan), Getrag(Ferreri, BMW M, Mercedes AMG) or ZF(Porsche PDK). Porsche tried to create a potential solution but, none of the DCT manufactures was able to design a DCT gearbox for Mezger. It is a fact. Why? Technical explanation is a very long one but, it has to do something with special real diffs and low specs electronic engine managment that Mezger is using(can not control all aspect of modern DCT properly). Remember when Christian wrote fee years ago about Network system in Porsche sportscars? In 991 Mezger simply do not fit from several technical point of view.

    Further all competitors are using DCTs. Why would Porsche still use Mezger and manual? Becuase of respect for 997 GT3 costumers? Because of its(Mezger) racing heritage? Or because only Mezger and manual are manly enough for some people?

    Hmm... Loudest members here are die hard Mezger fans. Well, I am sorry folks but, Mezger is dead.

    Not happy about it? Well enjoy your 997 series GT3s and sing:"King is dead, long lived the king!" If you can not live with the fact that no more manual and Mezger in GT3 based 991 solution is simple-keep your old GT3 and admire it even more. That "feeling" that some of you claim is no longer present in 991 GT3 will keep you in deep love with your old 997 series GT3s. Regarding that "feel"... Did some of your actually drove new 991 GT3? If not do not write here about its lack of "feel" any more here on renteam, please,

    IMHO 991 GT3 offers tons of "feel" and is one of the best sportscar currently on the market. Despite (sloved)engine problem.

    Smiley


    SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:

    Last thing, think about the GT2RS..it did the sport Auto test in 7:24..it will still take some time before a 991 wil beat that with ease..and Im not talking about a 7:23..Im talking about something really that beats it by 5-7seconds..whether that will ever happen? Basically, Im just trying to say that some of this "old metal" isnt that slow, and in an exceptional case its even very very fast..and solidSmiley

    I'm going to use my big crystal ball and say: The GT3 RS will clock a 7:22 at the Nurburgring, and if they make a GT2 RS of the 991, this car will be in the range of 7:15-7:18 ;)

    I'm with you though that the 997 GT2 RS is a great machine and that it definitely isn't "slow". The difference between NS times will be smaller and smaller. If the 918 is just able to be below 7 minutes, the room for 7 seconds improvement is just not there... (Just think about what would happen if the 911 would be able to be within 5-10 seconds of the 4 times more expensive 918).

    Porsche needed two generations of 911 to be at the CGT pace, probably that will be the same for the 918 time (but to be honest, I think it's getting quite ridiculous to be faster than that). If someone crashes at Schwedenkreuz with like 300kph just to drive below 6:50 or so, that is going to be really problematic...

    The thing is though, I think that "everybody" can drive fast with a 991 GT3 with PDK. To be fast in a 997 GT2 RS you should know what you are doing. Probably 80% of the customers (even for the GT cars) aren't able to be close to the limit of the car. So probably "normal guy" is faster in the "slower" 991 GT3.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    GR:

    The problem is all Porsche’s making IMO.  They marketed the previous GT3s with a race proven engine and a proportion (perhaps many) of the customer base bought into this philosophy.  The old GT3s are icons, with an iconic engine that is perceived as bullet proof.   Replacing an icon and keeping your customers onside requires care as the furore over PDK only has shown.

    Inevitably the Mezger had to be replaced at some point but from a marketing standpoint it was an incredibly risky strategy rolling the new engine out to the road cars first, especially as the new engine is so much cheaper and to the uninitiated based on the Carrera engine.  One season in the race cars to iron out problems and (hopefully) prove its performance would have done much to allay customer fears.  As it is, events have merely confirmed the very worst of customers’ fears.   If regulations made this approach difficult, they could have created a one make series. 

    Unfairly or not, Porsche look as if they have been penny pinching in development and bringing a car to market that isn’t ready.  I have no doubt that the 991 GT3 is and will be a brilliant car and that Porsche will implement a robust fix to the current issues.  But I also think they have been very careless with their halo product.

    According to Porsche engineers, the current 991 engines are more reliable than the older Mezger engines ever were. They are also more environmental friendly. You can argue all day long that the Mezger design was bullet proof but the statistics at Porsche seem to prove something else. Yes, cost was certainly ONE of the reasons to go for a new engine but I think Kreso explained quite well why Porsche abandoned the Mezger engine design.

    We can argue all day long about engines. You have your facts, based on internet forums and maybe personal experience(s) from friends or people you know but Porsche has statistical numbers. I trust the numbers more. Smiley Also please do not compare the Mezger based racing engines. There is no warranty for these engines, they are refurbished/maintained in a completely different manner than street engines, the comparison is ridiculous. As to the claim that the Mezger engines in the previous 911 GT models were more reliable than the latest 991 GT3 engine generation: Well, the current issue doesn't really count. It was a production start issue. We can only make a valid judgement about this engine after a year or two or more. So if someone claims that the current 991 GT3 engine is bad, has design flaws, is too cheap, bla bla bla...this is...bla bla bla. Nothing else.

    I know, I know...in the past, things were always better Smiley ... just ask my 80 year old mother. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Thats just plain rubbish regarding the reliability of the new engine... Do you want to know the reason it isn't in the 991 cup cars??? It's because the motorsport team put them into cup cars and onto engine dynos for testing and could not get them to be reliable at the required power outputs within a timely timeframe. This not from the street car team whom seem to be full of it but from someone involved in the development of the motorsport program. His point, if it can't do what's expected for 24 hours, it's useless to their customers. My info was corroborated by a writer for one of the Porsche magazines who'd also spoken to someone within motorsport.

    So lets not pretend to know what we're talking about with regards to reliability and regulations where the new motor is concerned.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    "So lets not pretend to know what we're talking about with regards to reliability and regulations where the new motor is concerned." 

    WOW - you are on thin ice around here.  Next you will point out (again as someone did earlier) that the CUP cars are running in a PORSCHE only series and THEY get to make the rules - and could use the new engine if they thought it was able to race. Smiley

    You don't understand - talking about proven past race performance is 'BLA BLA BLA...'  Reporting what the motorsports team thinks of the new engine vs the old is also BLA BLA BLA for that matter. 

    On the other hand speculating about the future brilliance of an engine which is not turning a wheel currently is scientific fact and NEVER BLA BLA BLA.. 

    Some of us are waiting for more 'facts' regarding race ready-ness and reliability. Until then I am very happy with BLA BLA... my old fashioned 997.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Just came back from a factory tour at Zuffenhausen this afternoon.

    There are a lot of produced GT3s in the factory waiting for their new engines with stickers:"GT3 Aktion - Aussenlager" 

    But....

    The GT3 Engine is back on the assembly line and in production.

     
    I saw at least 3 GT3s on the production belt - 1 Blue RHD and 2 White LHD.
     
    Blueflame 

    image.jpg


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    If the GT3 engine is back into production Porsche must be confident of the fix and no further testing required. This is good news because according to PCNA the engines will go first to those that have cars delivered and to those with their cars in PDI.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I think the big difference both in the availability of tuner gains and in the whole track engine vs. street engine arguments come back to one thing, previously there was a greater margin built into these engines. Now things are built to a price and an exacting output.

    Porsche engines used to be overbuilt. There was a very definite margin. The GT3 issue shows that the margin has been moved from the ability to withstand more stress to the margin of the ledger book and money made vs spent.

    Tuners would shave away at the overbuilt margin to get more power. People tracking their cars didn’t have to worry about the G’s or the load as the engine was bulletproof. Now there is no margin and we have issues like this. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GR:

    The problem is all Porsche’s making IMO.  They marketed the previous GT3s with a race proven engine and a proportion (perhaps many) of the customer base bought into this philosophy.  The old GT3s are icons, with an iconic engine that is perceived as bullet proof. 

    Unfairly or not, Porsche look as if they have been penny pinching in development and bringing a car to market that isn’t ready.  I have no doubt that the 991 GT3 is and will be a brilliant car and that Porsche will implement a robust fix to the current issues.  But I also think they have been very careless with their halo product.

    Does no one remember the massive oil leaks in [at least in my] 997 gt3's?  bulletproof my ass.

    the "world's most profitable car company" has to cut corners to be so.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    ^^^ Many had light oil weepage and drips from the RMS but massive leaks were the exception, not the norm... You were likely unlucky. I bet both are significantly less in volume than a rod through your crankcase  This is no longer an issue with the 997.2 cars.

    RMS leakage and coolant fitting failures were just more examples of a complete disregard by Porsche for their customers with fixes so easy yet ignored iteration after iteration... 


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 10/25/21 12:29 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    492506 1291
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 11/8/21 7:43 PM
    Leawood911
    181151 1154
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 11/12/21 10:01 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    71755 383
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 11/25/21 6:30 PM
    watt
    67305 686
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 11/19/21 6:44 AM
    bluelines
    53276 529
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    49102 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    13444 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/18/21 3:28 PM
    RCA
    529 0
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    474174 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    390047 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    386230 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    351722 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 10/8/21 11:41 AM
    xpto
    321094 2647
    Porsche 992 GT3 12/1/21 8:05 AM
    throt
    278561 3125
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    254857 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    169376 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    120090 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    104515 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 10/9/21 1:11 PM
    CGX car nut
    95451 1231
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    83330 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    74267 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    74213 824
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 11/30/21 2:32 PM
    RCA
    53948 1398
    Others Bugatti Chiron 11/4/21 5:58 AM
    WhoopsyM
    44112 500
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 11/10/21 2:32 PM
    Topspeed
    41154 532
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    39937 615
    Porsche GT4RS 11/28/21 2:38 PM
    bluelines
    38163 710
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 12/1/21 11:22 AM
    kudryavchik
    33316 1074
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31191 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28008 370
    252 items found, displaying 1 to 30.