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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Lewis Hamilton Orders Pagani Zonda 760 LH Edition...

    "Formula One star Lewis Hamilton has splashed out on a Pagani Zonda 760"
     
    Pagani-Zonda-760-RS.jpg
     
    His company car is loud, cramped and doesn’t even have a roof – so when Lewis is driving for himself, it’s unsurprising that he likes something special.
     
    And Hamilton, 27, who races for Pagani rivals McLaren, has insisted his latest set of wheels is fitted with a manual gearbox.
     
    My company car has a paddle-change gearbox, so when I drive for fun I want a manual,’ he is understood to have told Pagani bosses, according to Evo magazine...
     

    ...with optional manual gearbox!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    Versions are developed based on effective demand i.e. if there are enough buyers wiling to pay for it.

    Which is basically what I have been saying, they decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance, the GT3 is not a high volume car like the Carrera/Boxster as so decided not to spend on two gearbox options. And they have every right to do so mind you, afterall they are a company and they have to look out for profits above all else, but they are turning their back on some faithful customers because of it.

    Porsche don't want to incur cost  on something that gives no  benefit whatsoever in this vehicle class. This is a sensible approach as opposed to cynical cost cutting like you suspected. Besides, what better can the 997 GT3 buy when he wants to change his car? 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    Versions are developed based on effective demand i.e. if there are enough buyers wiling to pay for it.

    Which is basically what I have been saying, they decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance, the GT3 is not a high volume car like the Carrera/Boxster as so decided not to spend on two gearbox options. And they have every right to do so mind you, afterall they are a company and they have to look out for profits above all else, but they are turning their back on some faithful customers because of it.

    Porsche don't want to incur cost  on something that gives no  benefit whatsoever in this vehicle class. This is a sensible approach as opposed to cynical cost cutting like you suspected.

    No benefit to their pockets you need to say, again, the benefit in the vehicle class is up to the customers to decide, not you or Porsche, and as we can see there are many who see a benefit in the manual... just not enough according to POrsche for them to spend on R&D and production of a manual option for them.


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Lewis Hamilton Orders Pagani Zonda 760 LH Edition...

    "Formula One star Lewis Hamilton has splashed out on a Pagani Zonda 760"
     
     
     
    His company car is loud, cramped and doesn’t even have a roof – so when Lewis is driving for himself, it’s unsurprising that he likes something special.
     
    And Hamilton, 27, who races for Pagani rivals McLaren, has insisted his latest set of wheels is fitted with a manual gearbox.
     
    My company car has a paddle-change gearbox, so when I drive for fun I want a manual,’ he is understood to have told Pagani bosses, according to Evo magazine...
     

    ...with optional manual gearbox!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     

    Hmmmm.... I almost like Hamilton now SmileySmileySmiley


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:
    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    Versions are developed based on effective demand i.e. if there are enough buyers wiling to pay for it.

    Which is basically what I have been saying, they decided to build only one tranny for cost cutting reasons and they choose the PDK because of its performance, the GT3 is not a high volume car like the Carrera/Boxster as so decided not to spend on two gearbox options. And they have every right to do so mind you, afterall they are a company and they have to look out for profits above all else, but they are turning their back on some faithful customers because of it.

    Porsche don't want to incur cost  on something that gives no  benefit whatsoever in this vehicle class. This is a sensible approach as opposed to cynical cost cutting like you suspected.

    No benefit to their pockets you need to say, again, the benefit in the vehicle class is up to the customers to decide, not you or Porsche, and as we can see there are many who see a benefit in the manual... just not enough according to POrsche for them to spend on R&D and production of a manual option for them.

    What else could a 997 GT3 owner buy when replacement time comes? Only DCTs are available anyway.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Carlos from Spain:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Lewis Hamilton Orders Pagani Zonda 760 LH Edition...

    "Formula One star Lewis Hamilton has splashed out on a Pagani Zonda 760"
     
     
     
    His company car is loud, cramped and doesn’t even have a roof – so when Lewis is driving for himself, it’s unsurprising that he likes something special.
     
    And Hamilton, 27, who races for Pagani rivals McLaren, has insisted his latest set of wheels is fitted with a manual gearbox.
     
    My company car has a paddle-change gearbox, so when I drive for fun I want a manual,’ he is understood to have told Pagani bosses, according to Evo magazine...
     

    ...with optional manual gearbox!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     

    Hmmmm.... I almost like Hamilton now SmileySmileySmiley

    But what gearbox does Alonso drive? A Ferrari version of the PDK Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    What else could a 997 GT3 owner buy when replacement time comes? Only DCTs are available anyway.

    And thats why they can get away with it! Smiley


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Hmmmm.... I almost like Hamilton now SmileySmileySmiley

    But what gearbox does Alonso drive? A Ferrari version of the PDK Smiley

    yep, I think he drives a white 458  Smiley ... Webber is the man, he has a GT2RS Smiley


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    If AP had told you that the manual shift 991 GT3 "mule" (prior 4WS) was no faster than the 991S PDK driven my this Porsche driver below would all the die hard manual fans and 997.2 GT3 owners still be interested in buying a manual 991 GT3?

     

    image.jpg


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Alonso had NO CHOICE either.  There are no Manual F-cars.  :-)  So did someone hear him wish for an Automatic in the same way Lewis asked for a Manual?  I doubt it.  Maybe we should ask him?  Webber - Spot on  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jc_34-Io-M


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Some people feel that without a manual transmission the driving experience is seriously diminished. There's really nothing to debate or hope to persuade, it is a statement of fact by those individuals.  Porsche has determined, at least for the moment, that offering a manual transmission to satisfy those individuals is not a priority, whatever the reasons. I welcome the PDK in the GT3 but why should I take issue with those who prefer the manual and regret its omission?  The larger issue regarding whether cars have become over burdened with technology that isolates the driver from the experience is moot as that rubicon was crossed long before Porsche put a PDK in the GT3. 


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    A lap of the Nurburgring in a Porsche 911 GT3 RS with a manual gearbox...

    Lap of the Nurburgring in a Porsche 911 GT3 RS with a manual gearbox -- Video Link

    ...an awesome car and great driving skills! Smiley

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Can someone link the EVO article regarding PDK vs manual? Love to read it.


     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Thanks for posting the article. kiss

    It is not exactly what I expected but the points were well made. The article only served to confirm each side arguments.indecision


    --

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    macca993:

    If AP had told you that the manual shift 991 GT3 "mule" (prior 4WS) was no faster than the 991S PDK driven my this Porsche driver below would all the die hard manual fans and 997.2 GT3 owners still be interested in buying a manual 991 GT3?

    I would take such statements with a grain of salt, remember that Porsche wants to take the pressure off taking the manual away from thew GT3 by portraying the manual they glorified for the GT versions now to be all of a sudden horrible now Smiley and want to make the perfomrnace gap look as big as possible to make the decition more palatable.

    Lets remember why Porsche also did away with the Metzer engine on the GT3... they didn't want to carry two engine lines in the 911 with one being exclusively used on the GT3 now (and GT2), since the Turbo now uses the DFI. Same for the manual, they decided to do away with manual altogether as well.


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Hi Carlos. This wast a statement AP made. It was based on observations while Porsche was early testing at the Ring last year.

    The issue is not that the manual is so slow. The issue is that Porsches base cars with the new chassis and PDK have become so fast.

    By the time the 991.2 S with PDK is release in a few years time the risk is simply that in terms of dynamic performance the GT3/RS will become all but redundant!

    The GT3 has to evolved with the rest of the product range or be left behind.

    Its great for us all to bemoan the passing of the manual because its "got more feel" but I wonder how many of us here would by a manual 991 GT3 if the base car with PDK was quicker in all measurable performance parameters? I believe its worthy to sacrifice speed and performance for "feel" or I wouldnt have kept the 993 for 13 years including over that time having owned 996.1 GT3 - so I am already "drinking from that cup", but just how many new car buyers wanting the greatest and quickest track oriented product Porsche make would put 130k Euro on the table if their neighbours 991S with ceramic brakes and PDK was quicker?

    Just a hyperthetical question that is all...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I think you make a very valid pointkiss The day of the analog experience from a modern sports car are almost behind us. We must look to the great cars from our past moving forward if we want to experience the satisfaction of rowing gears and engaging a clutch.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    And the company car with paddles that he drives seriously is a Wo4.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Want manual? Get an older car, like a Singer or like my manual 612. Technology moves on, you don't have to like it, but don't hold back progress. The PDK GT3 is significantly faster than manual because if was designed with PDK in mind from the ground up.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Leawood911:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but on the track (911 RSR cup cars) they use a sequencial manual which requires a clutch for downshifts (which when you want it for perfect balance setup going into a corner) and no clutch for upshifts once rolling for the quickest hardest shifts up through the grears.  PDK does not even come close to that type of box but one could argue all day long that it is the quickest shifting on the track...  the PDK is an idiot proof wana be sequencial manual in the same way the DFI engine is a wana be race engine ala Mezger - sadly with the best part missing - the clutch.

    It would be nice if the 991 GTS RS had a seq. manual like the Cup car... that would shut me up.

    Love it - well said Leawood911 - I have wondered why there has not been a movement to sequential manual in road cars.  Those who have experience in these cars know the set up is not diffcult to use (some race car gearing makes it difficult).  I cannot imagine it would be more difficult around town.  It is faster and lighter.  I would imagine it is harsher (I drove the Aventador and it shifts like a sequential and it can whack you in the back of the head on hard shifts).


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I agree. Older 911's with stick shift are everywhere and relatively cheap to boot.

    If you aren't worried about speed/performance go buy a 964/993 manual and "Shut up and drive". IMHO the best thing you could do.

    For the rest the game will march on. There's no revolution here with e-clutch. Its just progression. Im not sure we can stop that - the best we can hope for is that Porsche has got it right with this car...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    DaveC:

    Some people feel that without a manual transmission the driving experience is seriously diminished. There's really nothing to debate or hope to persuade, it is a statement of fact by those individuals.  Porsche has determined, at least for the moment, that offering a manual transmission to satisfy those individuals is not a priority, whatever the reasons. I welcome the PDK in the GT3 but why should I take issue with those who prefer the manual and regret its omission?  The larger issue regarding whether cars have become over burdened with technology that isolates the driver from the experience is moot as that rubicon was crossed long before Porsche put a PDK in the GT3. 

    Dave, you make a good point, in some ways, Porsche was pulled into this paradigm kicking and screaming.  I realized that there would be no manual in the next generation of Porsche GT cars long before the 991 was actually released.  I drove the McLaren and realized that the car was just fast.  The next generation gearing made the car easy to drive.  I was proud that Porsche had lasted as long as they did with serious GT cars with manual boxes.

    Regarding a market for manual.  I disagree with many saying Porsche had to go this route.  I think Carlos is right, they could have had the option for manual and I think there is a large market for it.  The US customers want to hang on to manual and the US is still a big Porsche market.   Some say no one would buy a manual GT3 of the PDK were so much faster but I don't buy that.  People constantly buy cars whereby there is a faster equivelant for the same dollar.  Otherwise we would all be driving GT-R


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bhnyc. Fair call. But you wouldnt buy a new manual GT3 if it were slower in every measurable way to a stock standard 991 with PDK would you?

    We are less than one face lift  model (2015/16) away from the above statement being a reality IMHO!

    Porsche did us a favour actually taking the manual option off the table. By the time the results were in from the first independant tests, Ring times, Spa times etc we would have had a serious delimma on our hands.

    You can say this isnt so but roll forward 4 years and the above senario would 100% be a reality. PDK-S in the 991 GT3 isnt just about shifting its about a whole raft of systems that integrate together to make the car perform better on track and road. Even the engine appears optomised for PDK-S. I dont think its a simple matter of throwing a manual in the mix. I think its more intergal to that. I also suspect Porsche have already signed off on this for the RS variant as its due to break cover in only 7-8 months...

    Anyway. Lets stop with this. The same discussions are happening on other boards we are all members of....


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Sorry, wrong article. There is a comparison test of 991 Careers, manual and PDK in May issue. That article was on my mind, not the one you posted.

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    KresoF1:
    Sorry, wrong article. There is a comparison test of 991 Careers, manual and PDK in May issue. That article was on my mind, not the one you posted.

     

    How in the world did I miss that article Smiley

    Posting it on GCF...................thanks Kreso  Smiley

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    What astonishes me is that we seem to have a discussion about PDK vs manual or as Carlos & RC points out ego-driven personal "races" where a friend might be a touch faster with PDK vs manual on a B-road - BUT my point is as stated by Lewis Hamilton is FUN ! No doubt PDK is faster than manual - I think nobody questions this and Porsche has to evolve in terms of new NBR times and 0-100/200 times that are way superior to the previous car - but AGAIN that is not the point ! I just think that unless you're making money with driving - it's about having fun with yr toy-car. some want a PDK and some a manual - what I am just not happy is that they make a choice for you - simply to please the numbercrunchers on which 98% can't replicate any given factory tracktime anyway - it's purely to say "my car can".....


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    macca993:


    Its great for us all to bemoan the passing of the manual because its "got more feel" but I wonder how many of us here would by a manual 991 GT3 if the base car with PDK was quicker in all measurable performance parameters? I believe its worthy to sacrifice speed and performance for "feel" or I wouldnt have kept the 993 for 13 years including over that time having owned 996.1 GT3 - so I am already "drinking from that cup", but just how many new car buyers wanting the greatest and quickest track oriented product Porsche make would put 130k Euro on the table if their neighbours 991S with ceramic brakes and PDK was quicker?


    On tight tracks ( lots of small corners ) I have been faster then the 996 GT3 with my 997.2 Carrera S PDK . I must say, it  looked a bit ridiculous that a simple Carrera S was beating a track oriented 911 GT3 . ( as drivers we were the same , as I know the guy from different track events ) he was so surprised that I was faster then him, and looked disappointed with his car.  Not by a lot , but my advantage was PDK and PSM combined .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    This discussion about FUN is age old. With every advancement in automotive technology there are people who are nostalgic about "how things were". They resist change.

    A few examples of resistance to change are the claims of nostalgics:

    • carburetors give more throttle response than fuel injection = more FUN
    • unassisted brakes give more feel = more FUN
    • unassisted steering is feelsome = more FUN
    • non ABS brakes allow cadence braking = more FUN
    • modern tyres have too much grip = less FUN
    • electronic stability systems reduce the likelihood of a heavy crash = less FUN

    Recently, DCT and Electric steering have been added to the list.

    Manufacturers that don't move on with technology are condemned to death.

    If Porsche listened to all this they would be the next TVR by now.

     

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    u obviously have never driven a original AC Cobra indecision


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    BjoernB:

    u obviously have never driven a original AC Cobra indecision

    No, but I drove once a TVR Smiley

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
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