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    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    devo said:
    I recently drove the '08 Z51 vette. I thought it was a crude lumberwagon.



    You must be joking, right ?

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    I recently drove the '08 Z51 vette. I thought it was a crude lumberwagon.



    You must be joking, right ?



    If he's willing to take the base 997 then he must've thought crude lumberwagons are too quick/sporty for his drives to the bingo parlor.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I have lastly driven the C6 Corvette together with PJ, so I'd like to add a couple of comments. First of all, the C6 provides in my eyes a great basis to start from. Track width, engine position, general layout are perfect for a sportscar. However I was a bit surprised, dare I say dissapointed, to discover that all controls, including steering, gearbox linkage and suspension, are lacking appropriate precision.
    I couldn't help the feeling, even after repeated drives, that the car makes much more of a leisure cruiser with enough power and grip to spare than of a sportscar in the direction of a Porsche or mid-engined Ferrari. This is somewhat of a dissappointment since it deviates from the overall product placement, image and design of the car. The funny thing is that the car still gets impressive results in every dynamic aspects, no matter if longitudinal or transversal, it just doesn't make you feel it.

    After all, you get what you pay for, the aspects that a Porsche 911 (for the sake of an intended comparison) is much more refined at are numerous, starting at torsional rigidity of the chassis via the amount of airturbulences with an open roof to the modulation of engine note, which was rather uniform and dull to me. Although the Corvette is superior in power and torque, the more refined gearbox and especially gear ratios provide the Porsche with an even or quite superior (at very high velocities) acceleration. In Europe the C6 is pretty much in line with the 987 Boxster S when it comes to the financial aspects and I would, clearly apart from the engine output, have difficulties to justify the acquisition of the Vette over the Boxster S...

    Haven't driven the Z06 yet, so I can only make my assumptions based on others' comments. The better control, response and feedback on the more powerful C6 seem to be achieved by minimizing the comfort, utilizing less compromising components. The end result seems to be a car that is marvellous on the track and shows some great performance due to power, weight and layout. If the '08 C6 has been improved, I 'd be curious to experience an (even further) improved Z06 as well.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Everyone's going to have their own likes and dislikes from product to product...

    Myself, I like a bit of irreverence built into my "for fun" car.... It's why I went for a flashy interior, so that I didn't feel like my car was the automotive equivalent of a stock-broker's wardrobe...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    First of all, I've never driven an '08 C6 Z51, but I do currently own a 2006 Corvette Z06. The opinions expressed on this forum re Corvettes are typical and to be expected. After all, Porsche's and Corvettes have been battling each other on the track and in showrooms since before I was born. However, if a few of you wish to hear an objective view on this subject, please read on.

    I am a 25 year Auto Industry veteren having sold new and pre-owned Porsche for an authorized dealer as well as having contributed in several senior sales and marketing positions for European automakers.

    In my line of work, cars are a serious perk, and I have had the priviledge of driving most of the world's best cars either for a day, a week or several months at a time. In the past year I have had the opportunity to drive a Bugatti Veyron, Lamborghini LP 640, Ferrari 599, Aston DB 9, Maybach 57 S and a 911 Turbo. I have also owned a number of interesting cars ranging from a C4S to a Cooper S. What I had never done was own an American car.

    That is, until I bought a Z06. As a Euro Car Snob, Corvettes were always off my radar. A few years back, a friend of mine built an interesting road course near Las Vegas and invited me to come out to drive a C5 Corvette Z06 on the track. The car was fast and well balanced, but it was still a Corvette.

    When the C6 was announced with an aluminum frame, hand built 427 engine and 6 piston brakes, I took another look. The world's automotive press did the same and their opinion was unanimous. Even European auto magazines and TV shows could not deny that GM of all companies had built something very special. The car's value was further validated by consumers willing to pay well over sticker for these cars.

    So what's it like? For starters, being American, I really like that I can drive a U.S. built sports car with good quality and no apologies. I also like that this car is more affordable to purchase, maintain and insure than the other exotic and expensive European alternatives. I like that this car employs materials such as aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber to keep its weight under 3200 lbs. I like the head up display, touch screen navigation, XM satellite radio and on board computers which compliment the clear and attractive analog instrumentation. I like the cars interior design which provides for a comfortable cabin as well as generous luggage space within an aggressively styled and modern exterior. It measures 1 inch shorter than even a 997.

    If you think I like this car then you are starting to get the picture. Of course I have yet to mention the car's excellent handling balance and best in class braking, or its incredible acceleration (0-60 in less than 4 seconds)
    and a top speed of nearly 200 MPH.

    But none of that really matters in the real world. What does matter is that this car may well be the most engaging and satisfying sports car I have ever driven at any speed and at any price. It delivers GT 2 performance on a Boxter S budget and that is simply an extraordinary engineering feat. You should take one for a drive sometime.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Everything you say is fine. I started this thread and looked hard into this 08 model and am disappointed. The car still lacks in a number of areas:

    1 - non-optimum manual gearbox with strange 1-4 start and 5th and 6th overdrives. Apparently the strange 1-4 manual start pattern can be fixed, but why is it there in the first place?

    2 - ditto for auto tranny, slow shifts and non-optimum gearing.

    3 - hot central tunnel due to poor insulation, uncomfortable on long drives.

    4 - reports of wheel hub nuts loose.

    5 - numb steering - perhaps improved in 08 models

    6 - creaking (flying) roofs on C6 coupes.

    7 - cosmetic: lower quality finishing of suspension parts as compared to precision cast Porsche parts, as well as a lot of surface rust on a new car.

    8 - poor choices of interior packages. Current LT4 better leather package only available in 2 2-tone choices - not the most attractive choices.

    9 - I'm a mountain road type driver and have serious doubts the Corvette can handle as well as a nimble 911.

    Other than that... yeah it is a good car but not great.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    hey honey i bought a Porsche today!

    hey honey i bought a Corvette today!

    there will always, and i mean always, be a difference..

    case closed hahaha

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    ADias,

    Your comments were well expressed. I'll do my best to respond to each of your points...

    1-The 1-4 skip shift or computer aided gear selection (CAGS) is actually a clever engineering solution employed by GM to achieve optimal EPA mileage and emission ratings and avoid Gas Guzzler taxes found on virtually every other 500+ bhp supercar currently sold in America. Incidentally, the shifting intrusion is typically only experienced by new drivers or those unfamiliar with the operation of the transmission. In several thousand miles of driving, I have never experienced such an intrusion. Regardless, I am glad its on the car for the above mentioned reasons. It can however be defeated with a part costing less than $20 if desired. The overdrive gearing allows it to "technically" achieve 26 EPA MPG within a performance envelope also capable of delivering best in class performance as evidenced by a 7.43 Z06 lap time at the Ring on runflat street tires.

    2. I have no point of reference on this as the Z06 model is not available with an automatic transmission and I have never driven a Corvette so equipped. Sadly, anyone who buys an automatic transmission sports car probably gets what they deserve.

    3. I have driven my Z06 for extended drives during hot Summer days and have never experienced this problem. Again, perhaps its an automatic transmission issue?

    4. I can't speak for anyone else, but my nuts are just fine thank you.

    5. No argument here, steering definitely lacks the precise feel of a Porsche 997. The system is too numb in my opinion despite the fact that it works well with chassis and poses no problems on either the road or track.

    6. The roof delamination issue affecting certain 2006 Corvettes was quickly identified and a safety recall was issued. Porsche also had a few issues and campaigns on the 2005 997s during its first year as well.

    7. Again not sure who's car you've been crawling under, but my 2006 is still clean and free of rust underneath after almost two years of driving. In fairness,I do not drive my car in the winter when corrosive salts are used on roads.

    8. The Z06 interior is actually well suited to a supercar and is more than acceptable for a highly focused $75K performance car. No one ever complained about an F40 not having a plush interior when it was selling for $400K. Or for that matter, that a Lotus Elise has uncomfortable seats and an aluminum floor without carpeting for more than $50K. A base Corvette at $45K should'nt be held to a higher standard of expectation either. The interior is simply not as bad as some would have you believe.

    9. Your concern about the Corvette's agility on mountain roads is completely understandable based on the reputation of older Corvettes but is now simply unfounded. The C6, particularly with Z51 and the Z06 handles incredibly well and in my opinion is better balaced in transitions than a 997. On a track, I would have more confidence ringing out the performance of my Z06 than I would my 997. A first drive in the C6 may seem like the car is too large, particularly after driving a Porsche. This feeling quickly changes to confidence once a proper driving position is found and sight lines are established.

    My point here is that on balance, C6 Corvettes of any desciptions are well designed cars offering great performance and tremendous value for money. Remember, no car is perfect.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I'm a 997S owner and love my car but I hate to admit the new 2008 Vette is going to kick the 997S's rear end in value, speed and track duty.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    Einmalig said:

    8. The Z06 interior is actually well suited to a supercar and is more than acceptable for a highly focused $75K performance car. No one ever complained about an F40 not having a plush interior when it was selling for $400K. Or for that matter, that a Lotus Elise has uncomfortable seats and an aluminum floor without carpeting for more than $50K. A base Corvette at $45K should'nt be held to a higher standard of expectation either. The interior is simply not as bad as some would have you believe.





    I really can't agree on this one point.
    I hate the interior of the Z06. It makes the whole car feel cheap. Performance-wise it really is a helluva mover. Where the Ford GT can disquise its cheap interior with a retro look, the Z06's interior looks like it was designed by team Buick. I'm reminded of it everytime I get into my buddy's car.
    As the owner, he also feels the same way. However we both agree that it has some R&D dollars where it's most important... the engine.
    If anyone from Porsche reads these boards I hope you guys stop 'spending' your so-called R&D money on technologies like 'VTG' and 'Tipronic S'... get back to improving the cars where they need it most... the engine.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:...If anyone from Porsche reads these boards I hope you guys stop 'spending' your so-called R&D money on technologies like 'VTG' and 'Tipronic S'... get back to improving the cars where they need it most... the engine.



    As if VTG wasn't part of the engine and tiptronic not an optional mechanical component.

    Re. tip: I have always driven a manual and currently drive a manual 6-speed but I have to consider it archaic really.

    Improve the engine? isn't that what PAG has been doing since 63? Let's face it the 997S 3.8L engine w/ X51 produces a very competitive 380HP as compared to the C6's (new) 430HP 6.2L V8 and does that with a far better matched transmission manual or tip.
    Now the 997TT's 3.6L boxer produces 480HP+ which is quite competitive to the Z06's 7L 505HP, isn't it? Not bad!

    Having started this thread and having spent some time learning things Corvette I think that these are 2 very competitive cars, which are very different, catering to different audiences. Where's the Corvette is raw power, the 911 is finesse. The feeling of the 2 cars is also different. The Corvette is a balanced tub, and the 11 is a pendular go-kart. Pick your poison.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:...If anyone from Porsche reads these boards I hope you guys stop 'spending' your so-called R&D money on technologies like 'VTG' and 'Tipronic S'... get back to improving the cars where they need it most... the engine.



    As if VTG wasn't part of the engine and tiptronic not an optional mechanical component.

    Re. tip: I have always driven a manual and currently drive a manual 6-speed but I have to consider it archaic really.

    Improve the engine? isn't that what PAG has been doing since 63? Let's face it the 997S 3.8L engine w/ X51 produces a very competitive 380HP as compared to the C6's (new) 430HP 6.2L V8 and does that with a far better matched transmission manual or tip.
    Now the 997TT's 3.6L boxer produces 480HP+ which is quite competitive to the Z06's 7L 505HP, isn't it? Not bad!

    Having started this thread and having spent some time learning things Corvette I think that these are 2 very competitive cars, which are very different, catering to different audiences. Where's the Corvette is raw power, the 911 is finesse. The feeling of the 2 cars is also different. The Corvette is a balanced tub, and the 11 is a pendular go-kart. Pick your poison.




    LOL... sounds like Porsche marketing has pulled the wool over your eyes.

    Look up some threads on the 997TT board about what owners think of VTG.
    Just as an FYI... Porsche didn't create VTG... they just made it sound like it was the next best thing to come around since the wheel.

    As for Tipronic S... lord help you if you think Porsche is on their game with such an out-dated piece of crap.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I drive a 997S with a Tiptronic...ONLY BECAUSE...I lost my left leg 4 years ago and can not push a clutch with my prosthetic. The tip in drive shifts horribly so I dirve in manual and shift on the steering wheel. So with that explained Porsche better come out with a transmission with shifting performance like Ferrari's F1 but with longer life clutches.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    The tip drives fine - you just need to learn to drive it. It is true that many do not get the hang of it and others summarily discount it in a senseless way.So to each his own.

    Re. VTG. Sure you can blame PAG, but VTG is there for a reason. It may not have eliminated lag but it has advantages.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    I recently drove the '08 Z51 vette. I thought it was a crude lumberwagon.



    You must be joking, right ?



    If he's willing to take the base 997 then he must've thought crude lumberwagons are too quick/sporty for his drives to the bingo parlor.



    There is no reason to insult me.

    With that said, I'd rather be at the bingo parlor than driving the vette.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    devo, it was a light-hearted crack... Are you really that sensitive??

    I used to run a license plate frame on the rear of my 507 h.p. Saleen S351 that said "Outta my way... I'm off to Bingo..". I thought it was funny, that was before I decided that messages on the back of my car were goofballish... But on that car, a snorting shaking whining gorilla of a machine, that frame was a hoot...

    Lastly, I am so sick and tired of those who knock manual transmissions as being "archaic"... The entire notion is so entirely emotional and fueled by techno-obsessing perception... Those who are so enticed by the latest tricky-widget, and are willing to ignore and/or toss-aside the pure and visceral satisfaction of more direct control, knock yourselves out, it's fine... and it may be a tick faster, whatever... But to suggest that those who wish to continue our joy in controlling power engagement with our left foot, rather than letting a computer handle it for us, are dragging our knuckles against the ground, you just don't "get it", period...

    That same thinking, without reasonable consideration to CONTEXT, would have electronic baseball bats, and soccer balls with guidance systems, and spring-loaded golf clubs, just stand over the ball, and pop a lever, and sink eagles... that's superior, right?? And Tiger Woods, that dude is SO ARCHAIC... Not to mention he WALKS the course, what an old-timer!! How archaic!!

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    devo, it was a light-hearted crack... Are you really that sensitive??

    I used to run a license plate frame on the rear of my 507 h.p. Saleen S351 that said "Outta my way... I'm off to Bingo..". I thought it was funny, that was before I decided that messages on the back of my car were goofballish... But on that car, a snorting shaking whining gorilla of a machine, that frame was a hoot...

    Lastly, I am so sick and tired of those who knock manual transmissions as being "archaic"... The entire notion is so entirely emotional and fueled by techno-obsessing perception... Those who are so enticed by the latest tricky-widget, and are willing to ignore and/or toss-aside the pure and visceral satisfaction of more direct control, knock yourselves out, it's fine... and it may be a tick faster, whatever... But to suggest that those who wish to continue our joy in controlling power engagement with our left foot, rather than letting a computer handle it for us, are dragging our knuckles against the ground, you just don't "get it", period...

    That same thinking, without reasonable consideration to CONTEXT, would have electronic baseball bats, and soccer balls with guidance systems, and spring-loaded golf clubs, just stand over the ball, and pop a lever, and sink eagles... that's superior, right?? And Tiger Woods, that dude is SO ARCHAIC... Not to mention he WALKS the course, what an old-timer!! How archaic!!



    All is good; no tissue required.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Everyone don't get worked up over this. If they feel it is more Porsche like then great. That says great things about Porsche.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    ADias said: Let's face it the 997S 3.8L engine w/ X51 produces a very competitive 380HP as compared to the C6's (new) 430HP 6.2L V8 and does that with a far better matched transmission manual or tip.
    Now the 997TT's 3.6L boxer produces 480HP+ which is quite competitive to the Z06's 7L 505HP, isn't it? Not bad!




    I've always found it to be a fairly odd method to argue engine development/efficiency exclusively on terms of power/displacement...

    I'm more of a "blank sheet" thinker I suppose, but if you don't allow yourself to get trapped within that envelope, isn't the more admirable achievement found in the overall EFFICIENCY of the engine, regardless of displacement?? I mean, there's more than one way to build an internal combustion engine, and a higher ratio of power/displacement DOES NOT equate getting to the finish line first..

    My point is, if one engineer develops a 3.6L engine that makes 300 hp, installs it in a test chassis, and realizes an average 15 mpg highway...

    And if another engineer develops a 5.0L engine that weighs no more than the 3.6L, takes up no more space than the 3.6L, makes the same 300hp, and gets average 35mpg highway in the same test chassis....

    Then, which is the better engineered mill and superior overall design???

    Porsche may be getting more out of less displacement, but it's gobbling roughly the same amount of fuel (air & gasoline) to get it done, with a geometry/package that only works over a rear suspension with no steering wheels..

    My point is that the Chevy V8 should not be judged on its displacement, as that's a 1-dimensional amateur's approach... It sounds good as a sound-byte, but it doesn't pass muster...

    It should be judged on overall package size/dimension, weight, power across the range, durability and fuel efficiency....

    They are (rightly in my mind) exploiting every advantage available to them. WHY NOT use displacement, when you can package it compactly, reliably, meet your weight targets, and run efficiently??

    Look at the Wankel... Tremendous power/displacement ratio...... But it sucks gas like Otis the Drunk... Regardless of displacement, the real goal is to put AS MUCH POWER generated by the combustion of fuel and oxygen to the crankshaft as humanly possible. The engine with the least amount of wasted energy, to me, is the engineering feat to kneel-down at...

    My employee's 400hp C6 gets better highway mileage than I (29 mpg), averages about the same as I overall (19-20-ish, but that is just fodder for discussion, as it all comes down to driving habits, the highway figure is more telling, constant speed over mostly flat road), and neatly pulls away from me from a roll...

    So I could blab to him about how I have only 3.8L to play with, but from an engineering standpoint, I'd be just further embarrassing myself...


    The LS7 weighs 458 pounds, fully trimmed.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    69bossnine: interesting POV. Point taken.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    69bossnine: interesting POV. Point taken.



    Thanks!! With these damn Corvette threads, I find myself posting and then bracing for the backlash...

    Making more power out of less displacement is an admirable technical goal, but if you do so at the expense of pumping more petrol than equally powerful larger-displacement mills (and remember, displacement doesn't equate weight necessarily), I believe that at that point it's a rather invalid boast....

    The art in engine design is in balancing myriads of attributes, to achieve a stated goal more effectively than the other guys...

    Oh, and it better sound good too!!

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Fiberglass corvette will eventually rattle itself into non-existence. Don't crash it either.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Will you please have a talk with the engineers in Maranello?


    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    bcenteno said:
    Fiberglass corvette will eventually rattle itself into non-existence. Don't crash it either.



    1. Corvettes haven't used fiberglass for over 25 years now dude... The body panels are composite plastic, the Z06 mixes in some carbon fiber pieces... And the durability of the car would depend on it's SUBSTRUCTURE, not it's outer skin, and the Corvette's structure is adequately stout and rigid. To suggest it's going to rattle apart is simply ignorant stereotype based on 30-year-old models...

    2. Don't crash it?? The Corvette is BY FAR the easier and cheaper to repair accident victim. The entire car is basically modular, i.e. all the body panels are available separately, and go on and off with no welding, seam-work, etc... Repairing a Corvette is child's play compared to a 911...

    So... What is the point you're trying to make exactly??

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    I drove an '08 C6 Z51 today. The steering is much improved over the previous year models. I consider it very good - on par with my C4 (996) steering.

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I drove an '08 C6 Z51 today. The steering is much improved over the previous year models. I consider it very good - on par with my C4 (996) steering.


    Thanks for the update! That is a great deal for a new sportscar...

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:Don't crash it?? The Corvette is BY FAR the easier and cheaper to repair accident victim. The entire car is basically modular, i.e. all the body panels are available separately, and go on and off with no welding, seam-work, etc... Repairing a Corvette is child's play compared to a 911...

    So... What is the point you're trying to make exactly??


    I assume he was speaking to occupant safety. There I don't know the data, but have heard rumors that the 911 is the safer car (but I honestly don't know if that's BS or not).

    Re: '08 Z51 said to be Porsche-like...

    Out of idle curiosity, I test drove a new 'Vette several months ago .
    After the drive the salesman opened the hood for me and then was unable to close it again.
    The car had 42 miles on it at the time.
    Now granted, it was an '07 model, but since they have been building it for more than 6 decades, I have no reason to assume that it miraculously got any better this year.

    In any event, I'll buy one when other car manufacturers proudly start comparing their cars to a 'Vette .

    Until then, I'll make due with my Porsche .

     
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