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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    palenimbus:
    dreamcar:
    apias:

    All this is true, but:

    a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

    b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

    You are not entirely correct apias. Ships do operate in urban areas as many ports are located near to or in towns and cities. Whilst in port ships do continue to operate engines to provide light and power to function when moored but also use their main engines when entering or leaving harbours. On part load this is where diesels are most inefficient and emit most pollution. The two cities where I live in work both have major ports right in the city, one the second largest container terminal in the country and in addition cruise ships and car transporters. The other city is home to the UK's premier Naval base and next to it a busy commercial port. Both cities are concerned regarding the pollution to the urban atmosphere. As the legislation that VW has fallen foul of is environmental it is relevant. It is ridiculous that the authourities and tree huggers are singling out automobiles as the only baddies. Maybe as Reginos alluded earlier in this thread there is also political motivation for the US to single out Ford and GM's biggest competitor.Smiley

    My previous reply is also relevant to the discussion, unless where you live there are no trucks, buses, vans or locomotives. If diesel emissions are to be brought under control then all those machines using it also need to be controlled. Diesel is not going to go away for generations yet.

     

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I would I think Ford and GMs biggest competitor would be Toyota and the other asian brands. The VW brand is not that big in the usa and the other VW owned brands are all luxury high end which the Americans don't really compete against. 

    Historically, USA has been VW's only market failure. In recent years VW AG  have become very ambitious to enter the USA market with the VW brand and these small TDI engines were the spearhead of the VW invasion.

    So this ICCT/EPA attack is like a preemptive strike to defeat an imminent VW market offensive just before it materializes.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    palenimbus:
    dreamcar:
    apias:

    All this is true, but:

    a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

    b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

    You are not entirely correct apias. Ships do operate in urban areas as many ports are located near to or in towns and cities. Whilst in port ships do continue to operate engines to provide light and power to function when moored but also use their main engines when entering or leaving harbours. On part load this is where diesels are most inefficient and emit most pollution. The two cities where I live in work both have major ports right in the city, one the second largest container terminal in the country and in addition cruise ships and car transporters. The other city is home to the UK's premier Naval base and next to it a busy commercial port. Both cities are concerned regarding the pollution to the urban atmosphere. As the legislation that VW has fallen foul of is environmental it is relevant. It is ridiculous that the authourities and tree huggers are singling out automobiles as the only baddies. Maybe as Reginos alluded earlier in this thread there is also political motivation for the US to single out Ford and GM's biggest competitor.Smiley

    My previous reply is also relevant to the discussion, unless where you live there are no trucks, buses, vans or locomotives. If diesel emissions are to be brought under control then all those machines using it also need to be controlled. Diesel is not going to go away for generations yet.

     

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I would I think Ford and GMs biggest competitor would be Toyota and the other asian brands. The VW brand is not that big in the usa and the other VW owned brands are all luxury high end which the Americans don't really compete against. 

    Historically, USA has been VW's only market failure. In recent years VW AG  have become very ambitious to enter the USA market with the VW brand and these small TDI engines were the spearhead of the VW invasion.

    So this ICCT/EPA attack is like a preemptive strike to defeat an imminent VW market offensive just before it materializes.

    Ford / GM major players in Europe, a huge diesel market - so bad press and fines in Europe against VW as a result of what has happened in the US would be as good as Christmas for them.

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    apias:

    This is actually one of the things that makes the VW violations all the more inexplicable, since it's not like this hasn't been a problem for anyone before this.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/business/engine-shortfall-pushed-volkswagen-to-evade-emissions-testing.html?_r=0

    Yes, I know, I posted that link earlier, but, still, they must have been aware of the earlier settlement.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    it is becoming more clear why this happened , per this WSJ story today : 

    Audi was too proud and in retrospect , arrogant ,  to license MBZ Blue Tec clean diesel technology back in 2007/2008   but they could not develop their own clean diesel to meet emissions , so they decided at the highest levels to just fake it , starting 7 yrs ago ... voila : Audi /VW " TDI " was born ...and at the same time  the US marketing tagline ." Truth in Engineering " was implemented ...which in hindsight was even more ballsy !

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-emissions-probe-zeroes-in-on-two-engineers-1444011602

     



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Spyderidol:

    VW has no evidence against suspended top engineers: source https://trove.com/a/VW-has-no-evidence-against-suspended-top-engineers-source.TODjn?utm_campaign=hosted&utm_medium=twitter&ts=1444067799&utm_source=sns&nocrawl=1

    I thought some of them confessed? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    MKW:

    it is becoming more clear why this happened , per this WSJ story today : 

    Audi was too proud and in retrospect , arrogant ,  to license MBZ Blue Tec clean diesel technology back in 2007/2008   but they could not develop their own clean diesel to meet emissions , so they decided at the highest levels to just fake it , starting 7 yrs ago ... voila : Audi /VW " TDI " was born ...and at the same time  the US marketing tagline ." Truth in Engineering " was implemented ...which in hindsight was even more ballsy !

     

    The TDI was born in 1989 (turbo direct injection) on a 5 cylinder diesel engine by Audi.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    palenimbus:
    dreamcar:
    apias:

    All this is true, but:

    a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

    b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

    You are not entirely correct apias. Ships do operate in urban areas as many ports are located near to or in towns and cities. Whilst in port ships do continue to operate engines to provide light and power to function when moored but also use their main engines when entering or leaving harbours. On part load this is where diesels are most inefficient and emit most pollution. The two cities where I live in work both have major ports right in the city, one the second largest container terminal in the country and in addition cruise ships and car transporters. The other city is home to the UK's premier Naval base and next to it a busy commercial port. Both cities are concerned regarding the pollution to the urban atmosphere. As the legislation that VW has fallen foul of is environmental it is relevant. It is ridiculous that the authourities and tree huggers are singling out automobiles as the only baddies. Maybe as Reginos alluded earlier in this thread there is also political motivation for the US to single out Ford and GM's biggest competitor.Smiley

    My previous reply is also relevant to the discussion, unless where you live there are no trucks, buses, vans or locomotives. If diesel emissions are to be brought under control then all those machines using it also need to be controlled. Diesel is not going to go away for generations yet.

     

     


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     

    I would I think Ford and GMs biggest competitor would be Toyota and the other asian brands. The VW brand is not that big in the usa and the other VW owned brands are all luxury high end which the Americans don't really compete against. 

    Historically, USA has been VW's only market failure. In recent years VW AG  have become very ambitious to enter the USA market with the VW brand and these small TDI engines were the spearhead of the VW invasion.

    So this ICCT/EPA attack is like a preemptive strike to defeat an imminent VW market offensive just before it materializes.

     

    That is such BS. Both Audi and VW have had trouble with California's emissions for several years. Even the gas powered Audi TT was not available for several years because it could not meet California's emission requirements. And the diesels, they had even more problems meeting California's emission requirement even though the were able to meet the EPA requirements.

    California's emissions requirements are the strictest in the world and VW cheated. 

    An AP analysis indicates this probably has already caused between 16 to 94 deaths.
    http://news.yahoo.com/ap-analysis-vw-evasion-likely-led-dozens-deaths-074550966--finance.html

    And the reason that the US has always been a failure in sales is because Americans always choose Japanese cars because they were extremely reliable compared to VWs. VW has always been well established in the US, way before the Japanese. But they sent over tons of crappy cars that were unreliable and the Japanese took over. 

    I owned both Japanese and European cars, and the Japanese cars were the only ones that never needed warranty repair. Even two of the three Porsche's I have owned have needed complete engine replacement during the first 10,000 miles.


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Spyderidol:

    VW has no evidence against suspended top engineers: source https://trove.com/a/VW-has-no-evidence-against-suspended-top-engineers-source.TODjn?utm_campaign=hosted&utm_medium=twitter&ts=1444067799&utm_source=sns&nocrawl=1

    I thought some of them confessed? Smiley

    Certainly not Hatz.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    California's emissions requirements are the strictest in the world and VW cheated. 

    One of the strictest  and actually they (VW) cheated on cars sold outside the US and California as well. Over 8 Million cars seem to be affected in Europe alone.

    The current European EURO 6 is basically similar to California emissions requirements with the exception of certain Diesel engines as far as I understood.

    However, NOx is only one side of the medal and a direct health hazard. There is CO2 as well and this is where many US cars actually really suck big time, especially considering the many V8 operated SUVs in the US. So there is some kind of hypocrisy here in the picture but of course there is no reason to cheat, so VW is to blame for their own actions and mistakes.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    vtrader:

    An AP analysis indicates this probably has already caused between 16 to 94 deaths.
    http://news.yahoo.com/ap-analysis-vw-evasion-likely-led-dozens-deaths-074550966--finance.html

    So according to the AP, VW cars are emerging as a leading cause of death in the USA Smiley I don't think Americans are so naive to believe whatever is presented to them.

    On the subject of causes of death in the USA, I noticed that over 750.000 deaths are attributed to heart disease and stroke which I would think are linked to the nation's  legendary obesity problems and junk food eating habits. So the Health department  better ban McDonalds and similar before making a huge issue out of VW. In the grand scheme of things emissions from a handful of VW diesels seems like a  speck in the ocean of polluted air people breath.

    If VW broke some rules they should pay the penalty. But exploding the VW affair out of proportion is nonsensical, hypocritical and with ulterior motives.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    LOL. I love the statistical analysis that can indirectly attribute deaths to VW cars.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Not to take this thread too far off course but in the name of twisted humor, there's now a Dieselgate costume for Halloween...

    rulesdontapply

    ***


    --

    2008 Porsche Boxster S PDE2
    2012 Porsche Cayenne S [gone but never forgotten]


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    rulesdontapply:

    Not to take this thread too far off course but in the name of twisted humor, there's now a Dieselgate costume for Halloween...

    rulesdontapply

    ***

    Add a Swastika somewhere to complete the VW-haters unhappy connotations and the masquerade will be complete Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    VW Will Delay or Cancel Non-Essential Investments Due to Scandal http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-06/vw-ceo-faces-employees-on-diesel-scandal-as-cost-cuts-loom


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix, once it becomes available, will be compulsory as I understand it in order to renew the road license and for other formalities.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.

    You could always "chip-tune" it afterwards Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.

    You could always "chip-tune" it afterwards Smiley

    Once a "VW outlaw" always an outlaw Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with an inferior car than you originally purchased? Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.

    I sold a 2.0l TDI VW just two months ago and replaced it with a turbo petrol engined car from outside the VW Group, so I guess I'm lucky to avoid the hassle. 
    Had the hassle of having to reject the first new car as a lemon and wait for a replacement from the factory instead.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    reginos:

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.

    I sold a 2.0l TDI VW just two months ago and replaced it with a turbo petrol engined car from outside the VW Group, so I guess I'm lucky to avoid the hassle. 
    Had the hassle of having to reject the first new car as a lemon and wait for a replacement from the factory instead.  Smiley

    I am sure you had some inside information SmileySmiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    I agree it needs to be a significant offer - here in the UK VW - Skoda - (or in this case the dealership that sold me the car) would be in breach of the Sale of Goods Act (the car is not as described when sold) - technically I could ask to return the car for a full refund although I suspect that would involve quite a battle to accomplish unless there is a class action for that remedy.


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:
    fritz:
    reginos:

    My two TDI  Audis are officially on the  list   "Winterkorn's List" smiley

    Apparently dealers have no clue as to if, when and how these engines will be rectified, if at all.

    I shall be delivering a legal letter to them for good measure.

    I sold a 2.0l TDI VW just two months ago and replaced it with a turbo petrol engined car from outside the VW Group, so I guess I'm lucky to avoid the hassle. 
    Had the hassle of having to reject the first new car as a lemon and wait for a replacement from the factory instead.  Smiley

    I am sure you had some inside information SmileySmiley

    No, just an old car whose next generation was taking longer to be introduced than I was prepared to wait.  Smiley

    I do have some (vague) information here though which is "hot off the presses":

    "WOLFSBURG (dpa-AFX) - Nach dem Abgas-Skandal beiVolkswagen werden Techniker bei einigen Autos auch direkt an den Motoren Hand anlegen müssen. Teilweise werde eine Überarbeitung der Software zwar ausreichen, sagte der neue VW-Chef Matthias Müller am Dienstag laut Mitteilung. "Bei einem Teil der Fahrzeuge werden dagegen auch zusätzliche Eingriffe an der Hardware notwendig sein." Der Konzern hatte mit einer Software Abgaswerte von Diesel-Autos in den USA manipuliert. Weltweit sind 11 Millionen Autos betroffen - 2,8 Millionen davon in Deutschland./fri/fbr"

    VW has just announced that fixing some of the cars will just involve uploading new software to the cars' ECUs, whereas where other cars are concerned it will additionally be necessary to make hardware changes to the engines. 


    --

     

    fritz

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    I agree it needs to be a significant offer - here in the UK VW - Skoda - (or in this case the dealership that sold me the car) would be in breach of the Sale of Goods Act (the car is not as described when sold) - technically I could ask to return the car for a full refund although I suspect that would involve quite a battle to accomplish unless there is a class action for that remedy.

     

    Even under the Sale of Goods Act you would not be entitled to a full refund, as an allowance could be deducted to allow for the use you have had from the vehicle. That is, the deduction could vary with the vehicle's mileage and/or age. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    reginos:
    noone1:

    Why not just keep it un-fixed and accept that you're polluting?

    I wouldn't mind that at all, believe me. Actually, I would prefer that because with the whatever fix I expect engine performance to be lower. But the fix will be compulsory as I understand it.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    So if the "fix" is compulsory and we (I have the 150bhp TDI engine in my Octavia DD) results in lower performance and / or worse economy what would you believe to be fair and reasonable compensation for ending up with a wore car than you originally purchased? Smiley

    At least a free of charge EU6 exchange engine which is supposed to be legal.


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    I agree it needs to be a significant offer - here in the UK VW - Skoda - (or in this case the dealership that sold me the car) would be in breach of the Sale of Goods Act (the car is not as described when sold) - technically I could ask to return the car for a full refund although I suspect that would involve quite a battle to accomplish unless there is a class action for that remedy.

     

    Even under the Sale of Goods Act you would not be entitled to a full refund, as an allowance could be deducted to allow for the use you have had from the vehicle. That is, the deduction could vary with the vehicle's mileage and/or age.

    It's a long shot I agree, and not really a route I would want to go down as the car I am really satisfied with the car (as it is now). Apart from this engine "cheat" issue the car has been 100% faultless in 50,000 miles. I can't say that about our Boxster GTS which has several minor glitches in only 5,000 miles!


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I'm really curious as to how they'd calculate the cost of use of the vehicle as I suspect I am going to have to go down this route with Porsche for my problem child 991. 


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


     
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