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    US Car Magazines

    Which one is more "trustable", CARandDRIVER or Road & Track? Or maybe I should ask which one is more "professional" in their "reviewing" approach?

    Just curious because I have two reviews here in front of me and especially the test results are completely different.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    ROAD and TRACK claims the 997 C2S 0-60 mph in 3.9 sec, so keep that in mind with the numbers you see.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    As far as I've heard Road & Track is Porsche's enemy.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    For accelleration tests, Road and Track says that they do not use "abusive" type of launches or shifting to get their numbers and attempt to "drive" like a ordinary owner would.
    Rusz, one of their senior editors, is a long time Porsche guy but he is old.

    Car and Driver has no stated testing driving style, but they have editors with a lot of amateur racing experience.

    Road and Track would never "speed shift" a car to get low times, C&D would and does.

    Is "speed shifting" used in AMS tests?

    Speed shifting is keeping the gas pedal on the floor and not lifting off of it while pushing in the clutch as you quickly shift to the next gear. You re-engage the clutch
    fast as soon as the next gear is selected.


    Re: US Car Magazines

    JimFlat6 is highly accurate in his assessment.

    BTW, the 3.9-second figure was an R&T anomaly -- their acceleration times are almost always slower than C&D's, though it has been some time since I've kept close watch on them.

    Generally speaking, trust C&D to "extract" the maximum straightline performance any way they can -- and that means abusive techniques. R&T is probably "closer" to what real owners would do to their cars.

    As far as any love lost between R&T and Porsche AG, that's a new one to me. They have exceptional access and were the only/first U.S. mag to get a Weissach photo shoot in on the LMP2.

    But then you hear something new every day...

    pete

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Is "speed shifting" used in AMS tests?




    Not in AMS and not in SPORT AUTO tests. This is not a "normal" shifting technique.
    As far as I know, AMS and SPORT AUTO are doing up to ten acceleration attempts and from all these ten attempts, they calculate the middle value. They're NOT using the best value they can achieve for obvious reasons.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Yes, speed shifting is not a normal driving technique, but it is common with racers.

    Does Sport Auto use Speed Shifting at all for their 'Ring lap times?

    Re: US Car Magazines

    what are both magazines claiming RC?

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    As far as I've heard Road & Track is Porsche's enemy.



    That's interesting. I'd like to hear more if you care to elaborate? Considering Porsche has been advertising for years and years, I'm a bit skeptical.

    As to who's more trustable, I would say they're equally "fair and balanced" or unfair and unbalanced depending on your point of view.

    But, I should note, R&T and C&D are sister publications and they do talk to each other regarding their reviews.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought both magazines were owned by the same corporation. R & T is more for the sports car enthusiast and C & D leans towards family type vehicles, mine vans, etc.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    As far as I've heard Road & Track is Porsche's enemy.



    That's interesting. I'd like to hear more if you care to elaborate? Considering Porsche has been advertising for years and years, I'm a bit skeptical.

    As to who's more trustable, I would say they're equally "fair and balanced" or unfair and unbalanced depending on your point of view.

    But, I should note, R&T and C&D are sister publications and they do talk to each other regarding their reviews.



    This is what one of the sales guys told me. When Cayman was launched the dealer was passing out an article on Cayman that was published in R&T and was telling everyone "See what R&T is saying about Cayman they always talk bad about Porsche and just read this one"

    I never read either one but that's waht stuck to my head that day .

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Which one is more "trustable", CARandDRIVER or Road & Track? Or maybe I should ask which one is more "professional" in their "reviewing" approach?

    Just curious because I have two reviews here in front of me and especially the test results are completely different.



    I have always felt that it's "six of one, half a dozen of the other" in terms of trustworthiness of the info., especially in regards performance, both mags. seem better able to detail the general info. of cars than to critique performance. I have always felt more comfortable in general with info. corroborated (repeated in multiple mags. from multiple sources), but this isn't foolproof either, since one writer can repeat the same mis-information reported by another. Often, test results on cars are "projections" or estimates based on factory sources or extrapolated from other test data.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    I think R&T is of higher quality. They strike me as normal guys who love cars. They will not always give the best rating to the newset-fastest-most-superlative-laden and obvious choice, but will praise cars that are fun to drive. Peter Egan's column, Side Glances, is usually good, but maybe it just appeals to my mid-western sensibilities. Finally, Kim Wolfkill is one of their contributors and he is/was a professional Porsche racer. His daughter does or did race a Cup Car, too.

    C&D does not strike me as bad, per se. They do seem to have a political agenda though, and several of their editors come off as snooty and cranky Detroit blue-bloods if that is even possible...

    MotorTrend has also become very interesting. They cover more auto-industry happenings thanthe others.

    Best,

    PTM

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    what are both magazines claiming RC?



    I don't want to start the whole discussion again but one claims 7.6 seconds from 0-100 mph for the Z06, the other one 8.8 seconds. Same applies for the 1/4 mile time, 11.7 vs. 12.2 as far as I remember.

    Not that I want to start the whole discussion again, I just wanted to hear which car magazine is more "trustable" regarding reviews. But like I said before, I don't want to start the whole Z06 discussion again until we don't have review results from the 997 Turbo and a "valid" track test figure for the Z06. Just as a hint: the Viper SRT-10 did the Nordschleife in 8:13 and all Viper vs. Z06 comparison reviews I read so far didn't show a substantial difference in track performance.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    BD 997 said:
    what are both magazines claiming RC?



    I don't want to start the whole discussion again but one claims 7.6 seconds from 0-100 mph for the Z06, the other one 8.8 seconds. Same applies for the 1/4 mile time, 11.7 vs. 12.2 as far as I remember.

    Not that I want to start the whole discussion again, I just wanted to hear which car magazine is more "trustable" regarding reviews. But like I said before, I don't want to start the whole Z06 discussion again until we don't have review results from the 997 Turbo and a "valid" track test figure for the Z06. Just as a hint: the Viper SRT-10 did the Nordschleife in 8:13 and all Viper vs. Z06 comparison reviews I read so far didn't show a substantial difference in track performance.



    RC,
    As you clearly pointed out, you do not want to start the Z06 discussion again.
    But this sort of post does. Put yourself in the shoes of a Z06 owner. It's hard enough for him to realise that the car is not up to his expectations (to be proved but I am given the benefit of the doubt here), so no point to tease.
    If one day, there's a proper track test, great, if not, let's just forget about it.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Road & Track.

    The numbers they generate are with more reasonable treatment than C&D. C&D will usually make the best numbers, but at the expense of the clutch and other wear parts. C&D peaked in the 80s, when David E. Davis was running it, IMO, though R&T was better at the time. I still have a 1985 Porsche special R&T edition, a collection of their Porsche reviews, with large photography layouts that's just wonderful.

    For insight, neither magazine really is as good as the best of EVO, for example.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    excmag said:
    JimFlat6 is highly accurate in his assessment.

    BTW, the 3.9-second figure was an R&T anomaly -- their acceleration times are almost always slower than C&D's, though it has been some time since I've kept close watch on them.

    [...]

    pete



    R&T was so surprised by that result, they sent the car to a facility to check if it was a ringer. The answer was no. Their explanation was that it was tested after it had 5,000 miles on it, and was broken in, rather than brand new, as is the case with most cars.

    Jim

    Re: US Car Magazines

    RC about the Z06 test times, testing and magazine test variations.

    According to Dave Hill, now the ex Corvette boss of GM, the accelleration times stated by the factory were obtained by
    speed shifting.

    For the 'Ring test numbers obtained, they used a factory championship race driver who pushed the car and himself into thier "iron reserve." Even he said he was shaking afterwards.Yes, GM should have used some German PR brains and had someone there from Sport Auto or even ADAC to observe. But to be fair, Chevys Corvette engineering group has probably never heard of Sport Auto, I doubt they can even spell Nurburgring without help.

    The Corvette Z06 has a adjustable suspension.Previous year Z06's were delivered to owners with a "How to Video" that shows how to adjust their cars suspension for the track. I dont know if that is included for Europe sales.

    All production Z06 engines comply with a new SAE standard that requires a third party to certify that every engines output meets the manufacturers claim. The engines are actually showing a higher output than the GM model standard.

    As for press fleet cars. Its a huge difference to get a new car with 100 miles on it than a car with 5000 miles that has been recently serviced. Even Porsches press fleet in the US has its virgins, dogs and its superstars, but not from any planned scheme to trick anyone. It just happens.
    The Corvette that R/T got might have been great, while the Corvette that C&D tested may have been whipped like a mule by other magazines.

    It doesnt matter if ANY Corvette has the same lap times or 0 to 100 mph time as a 997TT or Porsche XYZ. The Porsche will always be more precise, secure/confident feeling, be way easier to drive fast and have the better brakes. It costs more and for good reason.

    Hope this helps.

    Jim

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Why would someone post acceleration times on any car that were obtained through speedshifting? its not something any owner with minimal brains would use on the street or track so why bother? ... why not throw in a bottle of jet engine fuel in the gas tank while we are at it?

    Speedshifting acceleration times are fake acceleration times and people may get tricked into thinking they are real times

    there is some things I will never understand...

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Carlos, Jet Fuel doesnt work in cars but Nitrous does, and thats popular here.

    Speed shifting and power shifting is a common technique in the US for dragstrip racing to get max performance in accelleration. Its part of US performance car culture but not part of euro luxury performance car culture.

    How about this. Some drag racers dont even bother to use the clutch pedal. They just floor the gas and at peak rpms FORCE the transmission into the next gear - Power Shifting,
    or timed right you can also Downshift at high rpms without the clutch pedal.

    As to why....Performance car culture history in the US is a grass roots thing. Many drivers run what they brung and work on their own cars. Its part of American motorsports DNA. Even lots of the engineers on the Corvette Engineering team work on and race their own cars.

    For some people Speed Shifting and Power Shifting are not "abusive" its just a way to go faster. They arent worried about warranties, parts are cheap here!

    Im sure its as alien to you as left foot braking in a fast FWD rallye car would be to them. But both work.


    Re: US Car Magazines

    Today I saw a video from the D1 drifting championship in the US (Las Vegas). A bunch of kids in their rice burners, US muscle cars, driving around a hall and doing some crazy drifts. Sorry, I'm not sure what is so fascinating about that. There was one guy, a driver of a highly modified Honda S2000 who was very proud that his car is very difficult to drift, quote: "I love a challenge...". A challenge? Drifting? Kiddy play, sorry. This is like watching those introductory videos on Playstation Video Racing Games...same stuff. Very pathetic.

    BTW: driving 340 kph on a straight line is nothing special too, I know there are high speed races in the desert, sorry, I don't get the point of doing that. I agree that in the US, driving 200 mph on public streets isn't really an option all the time but when I'm watching how these guys are preparing themselves to do a 200 mph run with helmets, heat resistant suites, etc., I get a heart attack...out of laughing.

    Don't get me wrong, guys: I know that there are some very talented and experienced drivers out there in the US. But I'm afraid there is a certain mentality among US sportscar drivers that drag racing and drifting is "cool". Well, it is cool...in the US and in parts of Asia, like Hong Kong for example. But Hong Kong has an excuse: very limited space for racing.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    I agree with the fact that some of the Fast and Furious culture is taking things a bit far, it cannot be compared with proper track driving indeed.
    US sports cars culture is very different, over there, they race ovals, do drag races, etc.
    But if they like it, then so be it.
    It's all about the fun right?
    I watch American Chopper sometimes on Disco channel and we all know a Harley cannot stop, cannot turn and doesn't go! but they still love costumising their vehicle and that's cool.
    We have to remember it's all the fun, whatever it is.
    I remember with my Boxster S going to a track day and I spent most of the day learning how to slide/ drift.
    Now I know it's pretty much the opposite of what you're supposed to do to break a time on a track but it was so much fun!
    Being at the apex controlling the car's balance with throttle input and counter steering, I loved it! Was it cool? Frankly, don't care.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Drifting is dumb, but it gets lots of kids with rice burners off the street, so accident prevention wise its a good thing.

    If you think thats wierd, check out Low Rider cars. They drive slowwwww and make the cars hop up and down with electric and hydraulic motors.

    See any Porsches, Ferraris or Morgans drifting on that video???

    Your associating "sports car drivers" with liking drifting and drag racing is mistaken. "Sports Car" drivers here have different culture and values from Rice Rocket drifters anddrag racing. No one here associates rice rockets or drifting with "sports cars" as in Porsche, Lotus etc..

    You are welcome to organize and rationalize our automotive
    chaos and variety! We have at least 300 million people so hurry!

    If you meant going 300kph in Nevada for the Silver State Classic race, for the extremely rough texture of the road they use the safety precautions make sense. We have no
    roads as smooth as European autoroutes or autobahns.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    I agree with the fact that some of the Fast and Furious culture is taking things a bit far, it cannot be compared with proper track driving indeed.
    US sports cars culture is very different, over there, they race ovals, do drag races, etc.
    But if they like it, then so be it.
    It's all about the fun right?



    The problem is not the fun, of course it is fun if you're young and you're in a hall full of other young people (incl. some hot broads... ), yelling, shouting with some beers in your hands and enjoying the show. No doubt about it, it is fun for certain ages.

    BUT: what would you say if somebody of those "fast and furious" clowns are coming to you and tell you that in their 600 HP Skyline, they just blow away your expensive 911? With a grin on their face, enjoying the humiliation they may have created. Do you think you can argue with such people about twists and turns and reliability and driving as a daily driver, etc.? Nope: they enjoy humiliating people who spent much more for their cars, it is some sort of game. Remember the movie "The Fast and the Furious"?
    I watched it in the cinema with my wife (stupid me, I thought this is a nice car thriller...it was more of show movie) and when these guys overtook a Ferrari (as far as I remember) in their rice burner, the whole cinema was yelling "f.ck Ferrari..." and other "nice" things.

    Sorry but at age 40, I'm over it. I had my fun in my Lancia Delta HF Integrale and yes, I enjoyed playing with Porsche and other sportscar drivers but I NEVER had those "f.ck you" feelings towards them. This is now about rich and poor, about money, about social classes, not really about cars anymore. Sorry.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Performance car culture started from the bottom up in the US, while in Europe it started with the upper class.

    As for class, money and cars... Gangsta Thug rappers in the USA saved Bentley and Rolls Royces ass by making them popular again.

    In the urban hip hop culture Lambo, Bentley and Rolls are the must have status rides. The Benz G series used to be "in" but its out of favor now. Porsches were never in and Ferraris are seen as something for old white men or Persian American college kids in LA.

    Culture? Cars? Its a salad here.


    Re: US Car Magazines

    I agree with you here. I didn't know these guys like to humiliate other sports cars, proper sports car IMO but that's subjective.
    Maybe not all of them are like that. Oh well, no big deal anyway, as long as they don't put other people's lifes in danger, they can do whatever they want really.
    But again, I am confident in the fact that I'd rather have a 911 or a Ferrari rather than a 600 hp supped up Skyline even if the latter is faster.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    I agree with you, RC! How many of those "street racers" are older then 30? Almost non! Few days ago I was driving home with my wife in our Boxster S and on red traffic light young RX8 driver approached me and ask to race against him! In the center of Zagreb(Croatia's capitol) in the 40Km/h zone!! I said to him no, thank you! Look on his face was very dumb indeed... You, see my point!
    There is also differences in prespective... In Europe most of the things that are hot in USA are cold here! That is the fact, IMO. If I want to drive reallly fast I go to our Grobnik race track and pay for few exciting hours... Point is to PAY! If you do dumb thing on public road others may suffer as well... Also, RC you are right-it is matter of money. I enjoy the fact that I earn enough money to buy new Porsche! I am looking forward to read your report and impression about 997tt in few months...

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Performance car culture started from the bottom up in the US, while in Europe it started with the upper class.

    As for class, money and cars... Gangsta Thug rappers in the USA saved Bentley and Rolls Royces ass by making them popular again.

    In the urban hip hop culture Lambo, Bentley and Rolls are the must have status rides. The Benz G series used to be "in" but its out of favor now. Porsches were never in and Ferraris are seen as something for old white men or Persian American college kids in LA.

    Culture? Cars? Its a salad here.





    Interesting view, Jim. And believe it or not...I love being in the US. Maybe because of the "salad" (actually I love the huge steaks... ). Just can't wait to be there again...this time in a Cadillac Escalade with XMRadio playing the latest HipHop tracks...well, suites the car very well and drives my wife crazy.

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Ferrai's are in favor to, Snoop Doggs nephew Lil Bow Wow owns a yellow 360 which he drove to school
    One of the Fugees drives a red Pagani Zonda
    Nicholas Cage owns many Lamborghini and Ferrari cars.
    I was also reading an article with pictures about a 21 year old nightclub owner from L.A. who owned 2 Enzo's and an MC12
    Many ball players in the US drive Maybach, Rolls, Lambo, S class Mercedes, Ferrari and Pagani.
    Jim you're right though about Porsche never considered "in".

    Re: US Car Magazines

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    I agree with the fact that some of the Fast and Furious culture is taking things a bit far, it cannot be compared with proper track driving indeed.
    US sports cars culture is very different, over there, they race ovals, do drag races, etc.
    But if they like it, then so be it.
    It's all about the fun right?



    American sports car culture does extend to drifting, drag racing, and dirt oval midget racing, but it is analogous to the way that European sports car culture extends to snow ralleys in Finland.

    US sports car and racing culture also includes all varieties of club racing (including PCA and SCCA) on some of the greatest road courses anywhere in the world. A short drive from any medium sized city will take you to everything from weekly auto-X events to motorsports country clubs.

    But, yes, it's all about fun.

    Cheers,

    PTM

     
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