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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    macca993:

    CGX. You have probably seen the same OP post on Rennlist where you hang out like me. Ive not seen any other talk about this. As far as I can see it emminates from a single persons comment.

    I have a contact at PAG and will send email today. The last I heard from Suttgart was they were still struggling with prodiction slots for the 991 GT3 and we unlikely to fulfill teh demand. They were hoping to get the RS into the pipeline early to allow the demand lines to settle out so they can dee where the short spots were.

     

    I spoke with a friend who owns a couple of Porsche dealerships, among a multitude of other dealerships, and was told that sales are soft.  He keeps telling me to get a new 991 and a new ML.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Sure Sales may be soft but 991 GT3 and 991 GT3RS sales?

    The average US dealership is getting around 4-5 of these over their production life. 

    I have emailed my PAG contact so we will see if there is any truth to this,,,,


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I have not heard sales are soft. I believe some buyers are postponing their orders so they can get the sport seats which according to many source will be available first or second quarter 2014. To many it is a big deal to have sport seats. Me, I like my comfort.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    I have not heard sales are soft. I believe some buyers are postponing their orders so they can get the sport seats which according to many source will be available first or second quarter 2014. To many it is a big deal to have sport seats. Me, I like my comfort.

    To a dealer postponing a purchase is basically the equivalent no purchase for the sales period!  Don't forget that future allocations are predicated on past sales performance.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    People can make investments, financial or emotional, based on something succeeding or something failing. 


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    nberry:

    I have not heard sales are soft. I believe some buyers are postponing their orders so they can get the sport seats which according to many source will be available first or second quarter 2014. To many it is a big deal to have sport seats. Me, I like my comfort.

    To a dealer postponing a purchase is basically the equivalent no purchase for the sales period!  Don't forget that future allocations are predicated on past sales performance.

    I do not understand your logic. To my knowledge none of the buyers before me have backed out from buying the 991GT3. I moved up because they preferred to wait until next year. The dealer retains all the committed buyers but just shuffles the priorities.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:
    CGX car nut:
    nberry:

    I have not heard sales are soft. I believe some buyers are postponing their orders so they can get the sport seats which according to many source will be available first or second quarter 2014. To many it is a big deal to have sport seats. Me, I like my comfort.

    To a dealer postponing a purchase is basically the equivalent no purchase for the sales period!  Don't forget that future allocations are predicated on past sales performance.

    I do not understand your logic. To my knowledge none of the buyers before me have backed out from buying the 991GT3. I moved up because they preferred to wait until next year. The dealer retains all the committed buyers but just shuffles the priorities.

    Sales allocations are based on confirmed sales not intended purchases in the future.  There's nothing too difficult to understand here, if one has a bit of business experience.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Sigh, let me help you out Mr. Business man.

    My dealer had four GT3 allocations this year. Two in November and two in December. The two in November have been ordered by the buyers and the two in December of which I am one have also fulfilled their orders.The dealer for 2013 has used up all of his GT3 allocations.

    Next year he has two in the first quarter and two in the second quarter and they are spoken for.

    So he  has confirmed sales. Capice?

    Now if you are confused between GT3 allocations and the formula used to give those allocations I will happily fill you in. THat may be where your mind left the boat and is sinking.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Exactly.

    Factory allocations remain production line fixed. Only trim details etc may change. 

    I will know overnight if there is any truth to this. Sounds like BS to me. This type of rumor mongering and speculation is probably best left on the other board where its commonplace. I like this board as it bring new information to the fore. The other board usually follows...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    In the past I've stayed with my original allocation, took delivery and then reordered if there were changes I desired.  I know others that follow the same practice.  With a strong selling model, money can be made on the transaction when the newer car arrives. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:

    In the past I've stayed with my original allocation, took delivery and then reordered if there were changes I desired.  I know others that follow the same practice.  With a strong selling model, money can be made on the transaction when the newer car arrives. 

    Hmn, I like it!Smiley

    However, how do you get the second allocation if people are waiting to order?Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Purchase often and help the dealer out by taking a slow selling car. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    In the UK, overall sales are down on last year for Porsche YTD - 2012 was 4835 at this point, 2013 is 4773. This is against a backdrop of improved sales for Aston, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati and almost all other major manufacturers. In fact, only Bentley appear to softening YTD, but actually even they had a stonking August. I'm not so sure all is well in the UK for Porsche - given 981 release and the great summer we've had, I'd have thought they could be doing better? 991 is still a rare sight on UK roads. Perhaps September (traditionally, 2nd strongest month) will bring some respite. 


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bridggar:

    In the UK, overall sales are down on last year for Porsche YTD - 2012 was 4835 at this point, 2013 is 4773. This is against a backdrop of improved sales for Aston, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati and almost all other major manufacturers. In fact, only Bentley appear to softening YTD, but actually even they had a stonking August. I'm not so sure all is well in the UK for Porsche - given 981 release and the great summer we've had, I'd have thought they could be doing better? 991 is still a rare sight on UK roads. Perhaps September (traditionally, 2nd strongest month) will bring some respite. 

    simple answer...Porsches are overpriced ! People would rather spend £100k plus on an exotic than on a car that cannot be differentiated from its previous model. They need the 960 urdently !!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bridggar:

    In the UK, overall sales are down on last year for Porsche YTD - 2012 was 4835 at this point, 2013 is 4773. This is against a backdrop of improved sales for Aston, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati and almost all other major manufacturers. In fact, only Bentley appear to softening YTD, but actually even they had a stonking August. I'm not so sure all is well in the UK for Porsche - given 981 release and the great summer we've had, I'd have thought they could be doing better? 991 is still a rare sight on UK roads. Perhaps September (traditionally, 2nd strongest month) will bring some respite. 

    How can a 60 unit difference over a 5000 unit volume in 12 months be described as "down". Statistically its within the 1% error of margin?

    From an investor point of view the last 12 months have been crap for the Uk from a currency and economic performance point of view and I was thinking as an outsider looking in if the UK has managed to hold its Porsche Volume in the last turbulent and volitile 12 months (given many new Porsche buyers will be in international businesses) then they are doing pretty well. Whilst the USA is slowing coming out of recession the UK and Europe are still firmly in it ...

    Just one mans point of view but I love the last few pages of Porsche sales doom and gloom. It starts with PDK and ends with a failing international car company. If you want a tip buy VWAG/PAG shares now while they are "cheap"...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I agree that a difference of 60 cars cannot bring about meaningful conclusions. If anything, I'm surprised that Porsche largely maintained their sales in the face of all those "Porsche killers" as declared by the various magazines.

    991 a rare sight? Why complain now when most people moaned that the 997 was ubiquitous.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    People want validation, just not too much!


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Please don't get me wrong - I'm not moaning about 991 exclusivity!! Just feel that in the UK the market seems to be picking up, however Porsche does not reflect this - yet. 


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I think the 911 and 911s are overpriced, hence it being to close to the GT3. I do not follow the other manufacturers but Porsche always continue to put a couple of thousand more on there cars even in these tight times. 911s cost 91k GBP with a sensible spec, that's a bit top heavy IMO...


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    throt:

    I think the 911 and 911s are overpriced, hence it being to close to the GT3. I do not follow the other manufacturers but Porsche always continue to put a couple of thousand more on there cars even in these tight times. 911s cost 91k GBP with a sensible spec, that's a bit top heavy IMO...

    Sometimes I'm very surprised at discount given on a Porsche that's been sitting on the lot for a while.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    my friend just this week ordered a 991 C2, list price of £88000 from a UK dealer, to be built to his spec ..

    3 different OPCs offered 10% discount .. the one that got the deal provided the best finance.

    there is a subsidised finance scheme from Porsche running

    991s are relatively rare, even in London.

    Not many people spending money on expensive cars in these austere times.

    on PH, GT3 buyer has also been offered an earlier slot.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sfo:

    my friend just this week ordered a 991 C2, list price of £88000 from a UK dealer, to be built to his spec ..

    3 different OPCs offered 10% discount .. the one that got the deal provided the best finance.

    there is a subsidised finance scheme from Porsche running

    991s are relatively rare, even in London.

    Not many people spending money on expensive cars in these austere times.

    on PH, GT3 buyer has also been offered an earlier slot.

    Really, that' the first time I have heard that. So £8800 off price and an attractive finance rate, that's good. I see Audi are doing deals too own there R8...


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    throt:
    Really, that' the first time I have heard that. So £8800 off price and an attractive finance rate, that's good. I see Audi are doing deals too own there R8...

     

    I was stunned by the deal he got.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sfo:
    throt:
    Really, that' the first time I have heard that. So £8800 off price and an attractive finance rate, that's good. I see Audi are doing deals too own there R8...

     

    I was stunned by the deal he got.

    Got £10000 off a 991 cab order a few months ago from a dealer outside London. Local dealers tend not to give the best deals. All dealerships are struggling to make sales, in the case of Audi, I reckon it's due to the new s-tronic box hence r-tronics can be bought cheaper or presumably there is a new R8 round the corner.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Was at my local Jaguar dealer to test drive the f-type yesterday, good car but there was ju something lacking. Jaguar has really improved their finish quality, was offered a discount on a 3.0 supercharged  for £69000. Stills bt expensive for a Boxster competitor Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Italo:
    sfo:
    throt:
    Really, that' the first time I have heard that. So £8800 off price and an attractive finance rate, that's good. I see Audi are doing deals too own there R8...

     

    I was stunned by the deal he got.

    Got £10000 off a 991 cab order a few months ago from a dealer outside London. Local dealers tend not to give the best deals. All dealerships are struggling to make sales, in the case of Audi, I reckon it's due to the new s-tronic box hence r-tronics can be bought cheaper or presumably there is a new R8 round the corner.

    I didn't realise there are deals to be had. What about in the GT3, not sure about that one Smiley...


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Italo:
    Got £10000 off a 991 cab order a few months ago from a dealer outside London. Local dealers tend not to give the best deals. All dealerships are struggling to make sales, in the case of Audi, I reckon it's due to the new s-tronic box hence r-tronics can be bought cheaper or presumably there is a new R8 round the corner.

     

    what was the % discount on the 991 Cab and the F Type .. not surprised F type discounts are now available after all the hype.

    I have not seen a single on in London that is not plastered with "Your Turn Britain"

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Italo:
    bridggar:

    In the UK, overall sales are down on last year for Porsche YTD - 2012 was 4835 at this point, 2013 is 4773. This is against a backdrop of improved sales for Aston, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati and almost all other major manufacturers. In fact, only Bentley appear to softening YTD, but actually even they had a stonking August. I'm not so sure all is well in the UK for Porsche - given 981 release and the great summer we've had, I'd have thought they could be doing better? 991 is still a rare sight on UK roads. Perhaps September (traditionally, 2nd strongest month) will bring some respite. 

    simple answer...Porsches are overpriced ! People would rather spend £100k plus on an exotic than on a car that cannot be differentiated from its previous model. They need the 960 urdently !!

    When a $200,000 991 Turbo S cant be told apart from a 996 turbo, never mind a 1978 911 SC to the averge person, some buyers shelling out those dollars will say ...hmmm... maybe I should get something that LOOKS like that kinda dough , of which there are many now, and who would never take any of these to even 6/10ths of their limits, and to whom ring times mean nothing more than an irrelevant number . And as 911 prices climb that way, its buyers shift from successful aspirational " car nut " type new buyers, and  changes  to new market buyers who grew up where just a generation before , all there was were buses  and bikes, not race tracks or open winding roads.

    Iti is an awkward moment in the long glorious history of the 911, IMO, from a marketing standpoint... keeping 50 yrs of loyal 911 owners in the fold while chasing new markets with potential for higher profits  elsewhere.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Interesting and thoughtful comments on the development of the Porsche 991 GT3 in a historical context...

    Petevb:
     
    I find it interesting to look at the loss of the manual transmission in historical context. I was thinking about previous great Porsches, and realized that throughout its history there has always been a manual transmission in Porsche's top models, from the 356 through the 911, Turbo, 959, Carrera GT all the way to the 997 GT2 RS. As Pete Stout points out, there were only five inputs necessary to control every one of those cars: the steering wheel, brake, gas, gear-change and clutch. Today on those same top models not one but two of those inputs are no longer needed and one is simply unavailable, unceremoniously dumped without even a farewell tour.
     
    On reflection, I can't think of a bigger single change to the driving experience in Porsche's history, with the possible exception of the introduction of the 928. That was a water-cooled front-engined GT car intended to replace a vehicle that was really none of those things, and we know how that story ended. Like that attempt at change, this one is worthy of real discussion not only at the factory but within the community. After all, in the end Porsche builds cars for us.
     
    The loss of the manual transmission came about due to the evolution of "technology", which is something that I, and indeed Porsche, have had a bit of a love/ hate relationship with. On the one hand technology has brought about great increases in performance, safety, comfort and convenience. On the other hand I challenge anyone to step out of a 12 year old Mercedes Benz S class, with its dated nav screen, failing electronics, and ridiculous maintenance costs (MSRP when new north of 100k, bluebook today less than 8k) and tell me technology is only a good thing. Or step into a BMW M3 CSL with its now dated SMG transmission, installed to allow quicker 'ring times. Both examples can now be a painful reminder that, for some, technology can create a great car that dates like a new smartphone.
     
    I see, real or imagined, two schools of engineering within Porsche, and one can imagine that they've been at war. One school embraces complexity and technology, the other lives by Colin Chapman's mantra: "simplify and add lightness". 
     
    Porsche is capable of making great cars of either type, and at various times each faction has seemed to have the upper hand within Porsche. In my mind cars like the 928, 959, 997TT and 918 all clearly products of the technologists, while the 550 spyder, '73 RS, 968 Clubsport, GT2, Carrera GT and really any RS were the offspring of the "less is more" school, taking away as much as they added in order to achieve their greatness. Over time the balance of power between these two camps has seemed to shift back and forth.
     
    Choosing sides in this battle, something which is certainly not required, is largely a matter of personal preference. However looking back, I note that in my personal opinion the "less is more" school tends to age better than the technologists. If I consider which cars I'd have myself, a '73 RS is obviously going to trump '78 928 by a country mile, never mind that in 1978 the 928 was the more expensive, far more technically advanced car and grabbing all the headlines. An F40 would trump a 959 for me (or it would if I fit in it properly), a GT3RS would trump a 997TT, and a CGT would trump a Bugatti. So while I respect the technologists and would certainly like to borrow some of their toys (I’ll take the 4 valve heads and water cooling from your 959 for my GT3, thank you very much) I tend to be inspired more often by the lightweight camp. Part of this is due to the focus on driving purity that often accompanies the simplification, part stems from the cars seeming more timeless. 
     
    Over the last few years something interesting seemed to happen over at Porsche. The technologists and the simplifiers seem to have called something of a truce, and each side held its own territory. The technologists had their 4wd twin turbos, while the simplifiers got their GT cars with throwback manual transmissions. Over time the battle lines between them were redrawn slightly, as GT cars got a few more electronic gizmos, but a balance was maintained, intentional or otherwise, that allowed both sides to coexist.
     
    Then, in 2008, technologists mounted a major assault. This attack came not from within Porsche, but was mounted from Japan in the form of the GT-R. It planted a flag deep in the heart of Porsche held territory at the Nürburgring. While Porsche had been busy developing a modern day F40 in their Carrera GT and a '73 RS successor in their GT3 RS, Nissan had turned the tables and attacked them with a modern day 959. 
     
    This attack demanded a response: Porsche's GT group, defender of the 'ring, was called upon. They realized, however, that today "simplify and add lightness" alone will not get the job done. The CGT had shown where lightness, focus and reflexes alone would lead, but it also shown the limitations, and that this was a place few drivers could follow. So Porsche quadrupled their development budget and fought fire with fire. 
     
    I’d suggest that the 2014 GT3 is the result. It is a hybrid, one that attempts to combine the best parts of the technologist and "less is more" schools. It doesn't do the obvious and build on the 4wd Twin Turbo, but instead keeps the rear wheel drive adjustability of the GT3. The driver still balances the car, not the computer, with the goal of making it simultaneously both fast and involving. We're already seeing the results- in the limited tests so far the new GT3 is trumping the GT-R in both cross country speed and in involvement, while adding the comfort needed to combat the Audi R8 to boot. The GT group has answered the call. 
     
    In the process, however, the new GT3 has lost the right to lay claim as a successor to the "less is more" dynasty, and Porsche has gone so far as to say exactly that. Instead we've got the complicated and not light GT3, the more complicated and heavier Twin Turbo, and finally the über complex and heavy 918, which is about as far from "simplify and add lightness" as you can get. The new GT3 seems to be not just a new car, but a shift in the balance of power and the end of two eras, both manual transmission and “less is more”, that have reigned for over 50 years. For those in the "less is more" camp, you can understand how this would not be taken lightly. 
     
    Is the concept "simplify and add lightness" really dead, a casualty of war? Is the line of epic, lightweight, analog, timeless sports cars that punch above their weight and both make great demands of and fully reward their drivers, really a thing of the past?
     
    I'd argue both yes and no. 
     
    If the quickest point to point car is your goal, then yes, the fastest car will now have technology, and lots of it. Race series around the world have been busy banning driver aids for decades, and where they are not banned race teams are using them. Making the quickest car isn't some kind of secret formula: it is mid-engine, 4wd, has an automated transmission and plenty of electronics to keep all four wheels working to their maximum potential. From that point it’s largely a question of how large and well you build it, from a pikes-peak racer (Peugeot 208 hillclimb racer) to a freeway rocket (Veyron).
     
    Everyone knows this formula, but Porsche has in the past resisted speed for speed’s sake in favor of driver experience and a connection to its heritage. Its signature model, the 911, has stubbornly stuck with the engine in the "wrong" place because it helps define what Porsche is. The unique engine position gives it a certain driving experience, and while there may be faster ways around a course, to quote: "there is no substitute". I'd argue the manual transmission is a very similar issue. It's no longer the fastest way around the course, perhaps, but it's been at least as central to the Porsche driving experience. And Porsche seems have realized this: the 959 racing version was equipped with a dual clutch transmission in the 80s, sequential race gearboxes were widespread in the 90s, but the Carrera GT and GT cars stuck with a manual in the 2000s. 
     
    I understand some of the pressures that have forced Porsche away from the philosophy of simplification and subtraction. I'd argue, however, that today there is still a place for epic, involving, analog cars that are better than ever. These can be worthy successors to the "less is more" dynasty, from Carrera RS through Carrera GT. If you doubt this, ask yourself how amazingly good a lightened, sharpened Cayman with the new GT3 motor and a manual 6 speed would be. No rear wheel steering or PDK needed, it would be a Carrera GT for the masses, and could be just as quick. OK, so that might not be quick enough to beat a GT-R V spec mark XVII, but ask yourself which you would prefer to drive, that or a Carrera GT? Shouldn't we be offered the choice?
     
    The pendulum of technology has swung a long way away from "less is more" this time. I'd argue strongly, however, there is good reason to return to the pre war truce, where simplified analog experiences like a manual GT3 or CGT coexist beside technology cars. Yes, they might now be slightly slower than their heavier, more complicated brothers, but years from now no one is going to care about a few seconds at the 'ring. Instead these cars will be prized for their purity and driving experience and their connection to Porsche's history, a history that includes manual shifting. 
     
    These "simplify and add lightness" cars form the bedrock the Porsche legend is built on, and to abandon them to history would be a major blow. Porsche builds cars for us, but currently they no longer build a car for me. I sincerely hope that changes.
     
    __________________
    69 w/ 997 GT3 cup motor
    1M, R32, 912

    ...all due credit and respect to Petevb for such perspicacious musings!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Really enjoyed reading those viewpoints. Will need at least half of a generation to adapt to the 991... 


     
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