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    Jul 31, 2007 6:42:22 AM

    intouch1
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    Truth about PDK

    Now we know why it REALLY is so late....got the info from fchat,

    The DSG in the VW is Porsche's system already. Porsche invented clutchless shifts 25 years ago and licensed the technology for 15 years to VW- which ends this year. That's why 08 Porsche's will come with PDK.
    The Porsche system is the quickest shifting.

    Jul 31, 2007 7:28:29 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: intouch1

    Re: Truth about PDK

    I doubt a license to VW was exclusive. The reason PAG has not released it yet is because they need a system that handles high torque. BTW... PDK is not clutch-less. It has 2 clutches, it just does not have a clutch pedal, as you could not have the dexterity to operate 2 clutches.

    Jul 31, 2007 7:56:23 AM

    Emperor
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    The reason PAG has not released it yet is because they need a system that handles high torque.



    Exactly. Audi also has that problem. VAGs current DSG tranny sitting inside the VW Golf, Audi A3 and Audi TT can't handle a lot of torque. That is the reason why it is not offered in cars like the R8, RS4 and Audi S6.

    Jul 31, 2007 7:59:51 AM

    TWSLK55
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    Reply to: Emperor

    Re: Truth about PDK

    but how come Bugatti use 7G - DSG .i guess there is no problem with High torque..

    Jul 31, 2007 8:15:24 AM

    Emperor
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    Reply to: TWSLK55

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    TWSLK55 said:
    but how come Bugatti use 7G - DSG .i guess there is no problem with High torque..



    I've asked myself that question and can unfortunately not give you the proper full explanation. But apparently the DSG in the VW Golf isn't not the same as the one in the Veyron. The DSG sitting in the Veyron is different and heavily tailored for car and VAG had a tough time making it function properly, hence the long R&D development time for the Veyron.

    The DSG in the Veyron is probably too expensive to put inside a Porsche or an Audi and further more it wasn't design by the same company which developed the DSG used by VW and Audi, though both firm do have the same parent company.

    Veyron DSG



    VW/Audi/Seat DSG

    Jul 31, 2007 8:24:11 AM

    ray911
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    Reply to: TWSLK55

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    TWSLK55 said:
    but how come Bugatti use 7G - DSG .i guess there is no problem with High torque..



    Yes it can; the Veyron DSG is a special build to handle that torque.

    Unfortuntaly, it has some drawback: it accounts for about 50k USD if I am not mistaken. Maybe this limits the applicability in VW, Audi and also Porsche cars...

    yah

    Jul 31, 2007 8:58:31 AM

    Alex_997TT
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    Reply to: ray911

    Re: Truth about PDK

    I thought the Veyron DSG was just far too heavy. Fine if you have 1001bhp to cart it around...

    Jul 31, 2007 9:14:44 AM

    WR
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Truth about PDK

    so is it confirm on 08 build models with PDK as an option??

    Jul 31, 2007 9:29:02 AM

    Alex_997TT
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    Reply to: WR

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    WR said:
    so is it confirm on 08 build models with PDK as an option??



    No, it's a *maybe* on the 997 Carrera facelift around the end of 2008. More likey will be for the Panamera release.

    Jul 31, 2007 10:33:00 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Truth about PDK

    VW's DSG is designed for transverse mounted engines, it won't work on the Turbo, plus it's only a light duty and the Turbo will make mince meat of it.

    Veyron's is a a correct design for the longitudinal mounted Porsche engines but it's far too big, heavy, expensive and overbuild for Porsche's needs.

    Porsche needs one that can handle 500-600lb torque, and it needs to be compact.

    I think the PDK appearing in the Panamera first is a good possibility, they may actually do what Maserati does with the quattroporte, offering the PDK and the tip and no manual gearbox.

    PDK is a natural evolution for the manual transmission and I would not be surprised at all if Porsche replaces the manual with PDK and keep the tip version. This will no doubt offends the hardcore group of owners like what they did with the air-cooled engines. But with time these people will see the light and realize no matter how good, quick their shifts are, they will never match the PDK in speed and smoothness.

    Jul 31, 2007 10:40:30 AM

    ray911
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    Whoopsy said:
    PDK is a natural evolution for the manual transmission and I would not be surprised at all if Porsche replaces the manual with PDK and keep the tip version. This will no doubt offends the hardcore group of owners like what they did with the air-cooled engines. But with time these people will see the light and realize no matter how good, quick their shifts are, they will never match the PDK in speed and smoothness.



    What would be the point in offering both, Tiptronic and PDK?

    As far as I understand, the Tip is more expensive to build then a DSG; even if Porsche will surely charge more for it after its introduction. Thus, what would be added value for Porsche to offer the Tip in the future?
    The manual will surely be offered in the future as you cannot serve all markets with only Tip/PDK.

    yah

    Jul 31, 2007 10:47:42 AM

    Alex_997TT
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    Whoopsy said:
    PDK is a natural evolution for the manual transmission and I would not be surprised at all if Porsche replaces the manual with PDK and keep the tip version.



    Already told by Porsche that PDK will replace Tip, not manual.

    Jul 31, 2007 12:45:23 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Tip + PDK seems like 'more of the same' no?
    PDK can work in full auto mode, ain't this what tip buyers go after?

    Jul 31, 2007 3:33:48 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Already told by Porsche that PDK will replace Tip, not manual.



    Absolutely correct. "PDK" replaces Tiptronic, not manual. Porsche can finally end the "ordeal" to use a major drivetrain part from one of their toughest competitors.

    Jul 31, 2007 7:57:23 PM

    Emperor
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Tip + PDK seems like 'more of the same' no?
    PDK can work in full auto mode, ain't this what tip buyers go after?



    Correct. I have driven the VW GTI with DSG and in auto mode it offer the same experience as an automatic. The gear changes are amazingly smooth and that also goes for the transmission in manual mode. With that being said PDK will make tiptronic obsolete. Manual and PDK will the Porsche's offerings int he future.

    Jul 31, 2007 8:36:07 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Already told by Porsche that PDK will replace Tip, not manual.



    Absolutely correct. "PDK" replaces Tiptronic, not manual. Porsche can finally end the "ordeal" to use a major drivetrain part from one of their toughest competitors.



    So RC are you agreeing with the OP that PAG was licensed restricted until now to introduce PDK?

    Jul 31, 2007 8:46:28 PM

    ray911
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Absolutely correct. "PDK" replaces Tiptronic, not manual. Porsche can finally end the "ordeal" to use a major drivetrain part from one of their toughest competitors.



    So RC are you agreeing with the OP that PAG was licensed restricted until now to introduce PDK?



    I assume he meant the tiptronic supplied by DaimlerChrysler.

    Jul 31, 2007 9:27:29 PM

    electrao
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    Reply to: ray911

    Re: Truth about PDK

    just to add some info Veyron's gearbox was made by Ricardo. They're specialists in racing transmissions, specially of le mans prototypes (like audis!!).

    Jul 31, 2007 9:28:31 PM

    Ksurg
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    Reply to: ray911

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Would Porsche really offer the PDK quietly in mid cycle on the 997? It doesn't seem to be an option on '08 orders. Can you imagine taking delivery on the Tip and having the PDK show up a few months later?

    Jul 31, 2007 9:44:27 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: electrao

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    pedro_b said:
    just to add some info Veyron's gearbox was made by Ricardo. They're specialists in racing transmissions, specially of le mans prototypes (like audis!!).



    Just developed by Ricardo or developed AND made by Ricardo?

    Jul 31, 2007 11:39:12 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Truth about PDK

    The current tip is from MB, the same 5-speed one in the AMG 55 cars.

    Aug 1, 2007 2:38:01 AM

    turbonator
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Been waiting for this since the 997 came out and am feeling really disappointed as it doesn't look like it'll be ready anytime soon. Porsche really fell behind on this. Now I'm probably going to have to look for alternatives. F-car?

    Aug 1, 2007 6:57:13 AM

    ray911
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    Reply to: Ksurg

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    Ksurg said:
    Would Porsche really offer the PDK quietly in mid cycle on the 997? It doesn't seem to be an option on '08 orders. Can you imagine taking delivery on the Tip and having the PDK show up a few months later?



    Why mid cycle?
    MY08 runs short only until March/April.
    MY09 with the facelift starts in spring 2008. As with the Cayenne update this year.

    Aug 1, 2007 11:29:40 AM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: ray911

    Re: Truth about PDK

    - 997 Tip is coming from MB
    - Cayenne Tip is from Aisin
    - Boxster/Cayman I don't know but I suspect it is from MB as well

    Aug 1, 2007 12:11:24 PM

    saxguy
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Now I'm confused. My dealer told me I'd have his last allocation for an '08 turbo coupe - we're placing the order in April. Does that mean my car will really be an '09?

    Aug 1, 2007 12:26:06 PM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: saxguy

    Re: Truth about PDK

    It depends of its built date...

    Before July 31-08 it will be a MY-08
    After Aug 1-08 it will be a MY-09

    Aug 1, 2007 12:57:15 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: turbonator

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    turbonator said:
    Been waiting for this since the 997 came out and am feeling really disappointed as it doesn't look like it'll be ready anytime soon. Porsche really fell behind on this. Now I'm probably going to have to look for alternatives. F-car?



    A bunch of us went the AMV8 route while waiting for something more exciting from Porsche. New F cars are not an option for non repeat buyers in the US.

    Aug 1, 2007 1:01:13 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:
    It depends of its built date...

    Before July 31-08 it will be a MY-08
    After Aug 1-08 it will be a MY-09



    Depends on the country, US doesn't have the same regulations.

    Aug 1, 2007 9:40:53 PM

    ray911
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    Reply to: saxguy

    Re: Truth about PDK

    Quote:
    saxguy said:
    Now I'm confused. My dealer told me I'd have his last allocation for an '08 turbo coupe - we're placing the order in April. Does that mean my car will really be an '09?



    Repeated rumours are that only the Carrera gets a facelift and not the TT. As such, I would expect that the TT will have a normal MY08 until August 2008 and just the "normal" 997 variants will have a MY09 starting in spring 2008.

    Aug 1, 2007 10:08:26 PM

    saxguy
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    Reply to: ray911

    Re: Truth about PDK

    That would make me think that Porsche will not be offering the PDK for non-turbo 997 variants in the '09 MY. It would seem strange for Porsche to introduce it on '09 997s and not have it for the '08 997tt that would carry through to August. Of course they could add the option for mid-year turbos, but it seems more likely that it will show up for the '10 or '11 models. This is purely speculation, though.
     
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