Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 996 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    PCCB issue again

    Those interested in the PCCB issue might be interested in a Letter to the Editor which I wrote which appears in the December issue of Excellence magazine:

    Quote:
    I enjoyed your article in the November 2003 issue on the new GT3 entitled "Track Daddy." What a beautiful car! However, I believe you do your readers a disservice when you state that the one option that is a "must-have" is PCCB ceramic-composite braking. I probably have the most road experience so far with the PCCB brake system. They were added to my Turbo at 13,000 miles and I have so far driven them almost 31,000 miles. My use has been almost exclusively on long-distance trips within Europe. The car has been used hard but still within expectations for a Porsche. I have had no end of problems.

    There are three main problem areas with ceramic composite brakes. First, the rotors overheat and fail. Second, the ABS system has not been modified for the PCCB rotors which causes less than optimal ABS performance and also damages the rotors. Third, the pads are not able to handle the heat and are quickly destroyed once overheated. The Porsche forums are now filling with complaints as large numbers of GT3 users start to experience these cars.

    The lower unsprung weight that these brakes offer is noticeable as is the total lack of fade. And I do believe that ceramic-composite brakes offer tremendous potential. But Porsche introduced them too soon and they are just not ready for consumer use. As you correctly point out, the GT3 is targeted as a track-day car. Track cars are particularly hard on their brakes. And those are exactly the conditions where the ceramic pads and rotors are at the greatest risk from heat and ABS damage.

    With the introduction of the GT3, Porsche implicitly ended the promise of long life for these parts (promises which induced me to purchase the system). Now, Porsche adds this disclaimer: circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important - as with conventional steel high-performance brakes - to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event.

    Therefore, anyone using the PCCB brakes on the track must be prepared to replace all components after each track event. Cast iron rotors are cheap consumables. Ceramic composite rotors are most certainly not!

    Ergo, a track car is exactly the sort of car which should not have PCCB brakes. There are good reasons why you will not find these brakes on any of Porsche's race cars...



    Stephen

    Re: PCCB issue again

    gee,

    maybe THEY sent the cops after you!!! a great fixed wing conspiracy

    Re: PCCB issue again

    The PCCB discussion isn't new but you can't expect people who paid big bucks for the PCCB as an option to acknowledge that it actually isn't really worth the money.

    I have one single question for all PCCB lovers/haters out there and if you succeed to give a satisfactory answer (I know the answer... ), I might give an apology to whoever wants it.

    Here's the question (with a little introduction):
    Daimlerchrysler (Mercedes Benz) introduced a ceramic brake pretty similar to the PCCB on a special limited production CL 55 AMG, called F1 Edition model. By that time, Mercedes had high hopes and big plans for introducing the ceramic compound brake on other models too. They didn't.
    And here's the question: why didn't they do it?

    Remember: we're talking about a multi-billion dollars super car manufacturer with billions of dollars of production/research budgets.

    Now I'm very curious to read your answers.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    A good second question. If the brakes are so good for racing, why are they completely absent from all of Porsche's cup cars?

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Either it was too costly and/or it just plain sucked.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    RC,

    I faintly remember there being a test sponsored by one of the German car magazines between a 911 Turbo equipped with PCCB and the CL55 F1 you are referring to a while back. Basically, the ceramic brakes on the CL55 F1 self destructed while the PCCB passed with flying colors. Porsche ordered that the magazine article not be published so that MB would not be embarrassed. The MB's ceramic brakes at that time could not even endure basic street driving (well I wouldn't exactly call the autobahn basic).

    So to answer your question...PCCB is a new technology which has great potential and has been proven on the STREET but has yet been developed to the point of being trackable. MB was not going to take the chance of being on the "bleeding edge" and have the possibility that the customers "abuse" the system and then get a bad rep for bringing out a technology too soon. Porsche went with it because they probably thought that people were going to buy it for street use only and the "smart" track day racers would stick with the iron system. Am I right?


    Re: PCCB issue again

    Rludlow - I think the smart racers NOW know not to buy PCCB for the track, but that's only because some of the honest track racers were initially misled by Porsche marketing efforts that the PCCB was fantastic, light, and would last as long as the car. Unfortunately, the expensive R&D was left to these unlucky customers.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    how does one buy a gt2 for the track with steel? the option isnt available.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Actually, a number of early GT2's were delivered with cast iron rotors because of a shortage of ceramic rotors. These were the early production GT2's which mostly ended up in Europe.

    Also, a number of cars in Europe have been converted to cast iron by Porsche because of complaints over the ceramics.

    So yes, there are a number of GT2's out there with cast iron rotors.

    Stephen

    Re: PCCB issue again

    The problem was that DC couldn't handle this new technique, the technical difficulties made it impossible to build a brake to DC's standards. They also realized that the cost/advantage ratio was practically a catastrophy.
    DC recently started again a similar project together with Brembo. The interersting part: Brembo is also the manufacturer and development partner of the PCCB (excluding the discs, they're manufactured by SGL Carbon in South Germany) and as far as I know, they have been DC's partner with the CL 55 AMG F1 Edition ceramic compound brake.

    Or to make it somehow easier to understand: personally I get the feeling that most PCCB customers played the guinea pig for Porsche over the past two years.
    The PCCB has already been improved but I'd say there is still a long way til it really stands to it's promised performance.
    A very important task is getting a tire adapted to it to be able to shorten braking distance too. Not to speak about cost and track endurance.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    So what are the options of the buyer's of the CGT. Are they stuck with these brakes? The car can only perform on a track. If they are expensive to replace on their cheaper models imagine what it will cost to replace on the CGT.


    Re: PCCB issue again

    will just have to upgrade to some sort of lightweight steel brembo solution (they already have a very lightweight 15" version out now) when they wear out if they suck as bad as the current version does. in fact, porsche has actually picked up the tab for steel retrofit for many GT2 owners who have complained and that car is about 1/3 the CGT's cost. i kinda think they'd do something if it comes down to it.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    So what are the options of the buyer's of the CGT. Are they stuck with these brakes? The car can only perform on a track. If they are expensive to replace on their cheaper models imagine what it will cost to replace on the CGT.





    Nick, how many CGT will you really see on the track? Most CGT will never see a track, some CGT might not even see a public street.
    Another thing: the CGT has the latest PCCB generation, the material and design used in the CGT's PCCB brake is by far superior to the "ordinary" 911 PCCB. One probably gets what one paid for...

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Nick,

    You have a unique talent for bringing a ray of sunshine to your every post. How do you do it?

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    how does one buy a gt2 for the track with steel? the option isnt available.



    I was in a GT2 at Donnington and the guy had the the PCCB replaced with normal steel by Porsche. He did not want to pay Pounds4K per disc in case they break. So yes they can be changed.

    P.S. he had a MY03

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    Quote:
    how does one buy a gt2 for the track with steel? the option isnt available.



    I was in a GT2 at Donnington and the guy had the the PCCB replaced with normal steel by Porsche. He did not want to pay Pounds4K per disc in case they break. So yes they can be changed.

    P.S. he had a MY03



    As far as I know, the PCCB cannot be replaced with a steel brake on demand. So either the guy had a technical issue and/or he threatened to return his GT2 back to the dealer.
    First GT2 had a steel brake because the PCCB wasn't ready to go. These cars got a cost-free upgrade to PCCB later on but as far as I remember, some customers refused it and asked for a refund instead. However I don't remember the details and I'm not sure how Porsche handled the whole situation.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    RC I am by no means an expert, but he told me has his PCCB at home in a box (I believed him and also looked at the breaks) replaced by Porsche. I guess it is worth asking the question.

    Cheers

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Mike I enjoy your wit. You will need it. As I told Ben if I owned the CGT my kicks would be to open the garage door start the engine revv it a few times listening in bliss and turning it off.

    Frankly I am not sure what else you can do with the car. Driving it on a public street would be like being in bed naked with Cindy Crawford, Pamela Anderson and Jennifer Lopez together and doing nothing.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Maybe true, but at least with the CGT, people will see you and know you're not full of S_ _ _ when you tell them the story.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Nick,

    Don't you think it is the ULTIMATE poseur car? Think about the attention you could garner driving down Prospect. You would be "the man".

    Seriously, there are plenty of places you could take the car to enjoy driving it. You won't be able to get near the limits on the street, but you don't always have to for enjoyment. I think Ben and Mike are prepared for what's ahead. Seems to me, the car fits the bill for both kinds of people (poseur and non-poseur that is).

    Re: PCCB issue again

    "You won't be able to get near the limits on the street, but you don't always have to for enjoyment."

    Nick understands that because this is the same argument he has long used for buying the 360 spyder over his 911 cab (namely that he can enjoy more of the car lower in the limit curve than he could the 996). Obviously he wouldn't also argue he used the 360 to it's limits on public roads either. So there is considerable contradiciton there.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Ah Justin, you know me well. I am the ultimate Poseur. I like my cars fast, sexy and very limited in production. Taking curves at 110 mph on a country road is not my bag. Been there, done that and no big deal.


    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    Mike I enjoy your wit. You will need it. As I told Ben if I owned the CGT my kicks would be to open the garage door start the engine revv it a few times listening in bliss and turning it off.

    Frankly I am not sure what else you can do with the car. Driving it on a public street would be like being in bed naked with Cindy Crawford, Pamela Anderson and Jennifer Lopez together and doing nothing.



    Oh boy, Nick...do you really know how to enjoy your cars? Such a waste of hardware...
    To be serious: whenever you're in Germany, I show you what you can do with a ML55 2.2 ton SUV. And then we talk again about Porsche, Ferrari and even the CGT.

    Re: PCCB issue again

    I appreciate the offer. I will be in Germany in the near future but not near you.

    BTW, I believe I have a good idea what is it like driving at performance high speeds. Not only have I had some track experience at a very fast track but I have ridden with Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry as they raced around Road Atlanta.


    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    I appreciate the offer. I will be in Germany in the near future but not near you.

    BTW, I believe I have a good idea what is it like driving at performance high speeds. Not only have I had some track experience at a very fast track but I have ridden with Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry as they raced around Road Atlanta.





    I wasn't talking about the track.

    Regarding your future visit to Germany: I don't want to offend anybody from other parts of Germany but South Germany is definetely the place to go to. It is usually warmer (well, not necessarily in winter time ) than in other parts of Germany, the sun shines more often and due to the many borders and near-by countries (Austria, France, Switzerland, Italy, etc.), we're a little bit more open minded too.
    We also have Autobahns with less speed limits (yes, there are still some speed limited Autobahn parts ) than in other parts of Germany.

    Ceramics & the street

    Christian is absolutely right. Fast street driving (mountain passes and highways) is totally different to track driving. Not "faster" not "slower". Just different. In its own way it is extremely challenging.

    And since we're talking about brakes here, I was driving on the crowded highways of northern Italy yestereday. Constantly going up to about 230/240 km/h indicated and then back down to 120 as I hit traffic. I checked my ceramic brakes a half hour after doing this. Still too hot to touch. So who says only track driving can destroy ceramics???

    I think Christian will confirm that it is quite easy to fade brakes on the highway.

    Stephen

    Re: Ceramics & the street

    Quote:
    Christian is absolutely right. Fast street driving (mountain passes and highways) is totally different to track driving. Not "faster" not "slower". Just different. In its own way it is extremely challenging.

    And since we're talking about brakes here, I was driving on the crowded highways of northern Italy yestereday. Constantly going up to about 230/240 km/h indicated and then back down to 120 as I hit traffic. I checked my ceramic brakes a half hour after doing this. Still too hot to touch. So who says only track driving can destroy ceramics???

    I think Christian will confirm that it is quite easy to fade brakes on the highway.

    Stephen



    230-240 kph in Italy? You're a curageous man, Stephen. Italian police got new instructions regarding foreigners, they confiscate the driver's license on the spot, no matter from what country they are. I hope you still have your CD passport.

    Yes, the front discs on my Turbo were completely "finished" at around 15000 km. ONLY street driving! On my E55 I managed to get new front discs at 10000 km!!! The cracks were already going from one hole to the other. Again: only street driving.

    This whole PCCB discussion is actually a little bit misunderstood. Of course the PCCB is a very nice piece of technology but some people think that PCCB can do wonders. It can't. There's still a lot of development work to do and I guess Porsche wanted to be the first to show their technological knowhow. I have to confess that Porsche would have impressed me much more by putting a 500 HP engine from the start in the 996 Turbo.
    But suprise, surprise...the PCCB seems to be selling, the marketing department did a great job and I have to confess that the larger discs and yellow calipers look nice. Are they worth the extra money? People who pay for it have to decide. If there is demand, that's fine to me but people shouldn't complain afterwards that the PCCB doesn't last too long during extreme track racing. If the PCCB would be perfect for the track, all the Supercup/Porsche Cup cars would have PCCB. Right?

    To end this PCCB discussion: people who bought it, should be happy. It isn't what it was promised to be, replacement cost is pretty high but it is a new piece of technology which I'm sure will be improved as the time passes by. In a year or two, in conjunction with specially adapted tires, suspension and maybe fully electronically/electrically operated brake systems, the PCCB might be a breakthroug in technology. Right now it seems to be more of a prestige thing, "look here guys, I have PCCB".
    I'm curious to hear about the PCCB track results on the GT3 RS. Any volunteers?

    Re: PCCB issue again

    Quote:
    Ah Justin, you know me well. I am the ultimate Poseur.




    Are you really? You must get at least some enjoyment giving your 360 some stick now and then (or paddle, not sure). I didn't mean to point the finger at anyone in particular, but surely you can see what the CGT has to offer its buyers other than replication of the latest Cayenne Turbo commercial. I'm glad you have some track time. You know what you are missing!

    Re: PCCB issue again

    The PCCB brake system on the Carrera GT is completely different to that of the 996 Models with the PCCB system installed.

    1. The diameter of the disc is greater than that of the smaller system on the 996 models.(380mm vs 350mm)
    Thereby increasing its efficiency.

    2. The cooling system of the brakes is much more advanced and channels significantly more cooling air to the brakes than on the 996 models.

    3. Specially developed brake pads.

    Note: As with normal steel brake discs when you drive hard on the track their life expectancy is significantly shorter than during normal street driving conditions.

    Re: Ceramics & the street

    Quote:
    Yes, the front discs on my Turbo were completely "finished" at around 15000 km. ONLY street driving! On my E55 I managed to get new front discs at 10000 km!!! The cracks were already going from one hole to the other. Again: only street driving.



    RC, you point out a perfect example of the difference between the US market and Europe for brake usage and questions of durability.

    My favorite Porsche dealer, Chuck Stoddard (now retired), once told me that he couldn't quite understand US Porsche dealers always making excuses for brake durability short of 50,000 miles. His German dealer friends would not make excuses for the brakes' premature component replacement.

    Instead, they would pat the customer on the back and say, "Good work, Helmut! You are using the car in the way it was designed. You should be proud! We will have it good as new right away so you can continue enjoying your Porsche."

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 1/28/22 12:18 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    517729 1295
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 1/22/22 9:42 PM
    Enmanuel
    187684 1158
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 1/9/22 7:08 PM
    Wonderbar
    75872 401
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 1/22/22 12:34 AM
    watt
    74227 761
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 1/3/22 7:55 AM
    Rossi
    56674 531
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    50798 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    14143 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 1/15/22 10:41 PM
    watt
    1258 1
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    478086 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    393746 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    388947 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    354590 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 1/27/22 9:01 PM
    CGX car nut
    325786 2651
    Porsche 992 GT3 1/26/22 4:50 PM
    BiTurbo
    297459 3321
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    257966 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    170352 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    121782 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    106093 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/22/21 7:10 PM
    Topspeed
    98066 1246
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    84040 209
    AMG AMG GT R 1/12/22 6:30 PM
    CGX car nut
    77079 828
    Lambo Aventador and SV 1/14/22 2:22 AM
    BiTurbo
    76806 699
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 1/21/22 3:48 PM
    WhoopsyM
    57834 1436
    Others Bugatti Chiron 1/13/22 11:07 PM
    kudryavchik
    45613 507
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 1/8/22 5:39 PM
    kudryavchik
    44119 1574
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 12/15/21 8:04 PM
    Topspeed
    42777 533
    Porsche GT4RS 1/23/22 1:51 PM
    GnilM
    42449 740
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31963 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28599 370
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 7/21/21 6:22 PM
    Topspeed
    27846 592
    246 items found, displaying 1 to 30.