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    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:But, I'm disputing that you are going to become an accomplished driver, who can consistently apply technique and be able to drive near that limit safely on regular basis, simply by hot-rodding around on the public highways.



    You're having trouble identifying the subject here, and staying on topic. The issue is not about going out, and on a high percentage basis, driving the Turbo to the very edge of it's cornering performance ability on public roads. You talked about not being able to find the limits of the Turbo on public roads. This is very different than a discussion about the "sport" of tracking a sports car trying to improve some personal best lap time.

    Performance limits, as they pertain to a sports car (Turbo in this case), are limited to acceleration, braking, and cornering. Taking the Turbo to the maximum performance limit in either acceleration or braking is just no big deal at all on a public road. The cornering limit takes some work since the right road has to be available to accomplish that - but it is attainable. So the basic fundamental limits of the car (the original discussion here) can be realized on public roads. There is no "personal best" in terms of lap times, a measurable criteria, when it comes to max performing on the street, so that objective has to be saved for the track where all three performance elements (accel/decel/cornering) have to be linked. This is where the "sport" aspect comes into play. But it is critical to remember that this has nothing to do with identifying the basic performance limits/markers of the car, which was the point I was originally responding to.

    When I'm driving on mountain roads, my objective is NOT to max perform my car for the *entire time* I'm in the curves...I don't need to do that for personal satisfaction or ego building.

    When I was in the Air Force, we flew a sortie called "advanced handling characteristics" where the entire performance envelope of the jet was explored. The sortie had nothing to do with the actual employment of the aircraft in it's combat role - the objective was just to identify the performance limits. Given the right roads, this same approach can be taken with the Turbo.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    And they let you do that "advanced sortie" performance envelop stuff as an amateur without training? Wow. And among a bunch of cessnas hanging out in the flight area? Impressive. Hope I don't meet you on a mountain road coming the other way unless its the couple of turns you have down pat.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    DJB said:
    And they let you do that "advanced sortie" performance envelop stuff as an amateur without training? Wow. And among a bunch of cessnas hanging out in the flight area? Impressive. Hope I don't meet you on a mountain road coming the other way unless its the couple of turns you have down pat.



    I guess you didn't read my posts about the roads I'm talking about having sightlines available to "clear" the area through multiple turns ahead.

    And yes, we had some basic aviation training prior to the sortie, just like the "driving training" I had prior to looking for the Turbo's limits.

    Quote:
    DJB said:Hope I don't meet you on a mountain road coming the other way unless its the couple of turns you have down pat.



    You won't, because when I see another car I don't push mine to the limit. Once again, the roads I drive on have many curves where I can see the turn ahead and the subsequent two or three turns after it - both lanes - unobstructed. One of the best roads in Georgia is Hwy 19 north of Dahlonega up to Neels Gap. I've driven it many times and not seen another car in either direction the entire time I was on the road. This road has three very wide lanes with a very wide shoulder, and as I said, a driver can visually clear...completely and effectively...many turns ahead. It is VERY easy to pick a few turns to safely max perform the Turbo in terms of cornering.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    This is an interesting debate.

    My first concern is all this talk about driving at the limits. Sure, you can determine the braking limit at 40 mph, but that's not what we're really talking about here, because we are all after a dose of exhilaration. Sure I can determine the acceleration limit of the 911 Turbo by pulling onto a hwy and flooring it to 65 mph, but then, many cars out there, many for a lot less money in fact, will provide a similar thrill.

    To really enjoy and explore the "limits" of a 997 Turbo, I think a track is needed. PSM will allow most of us to get by on either a road or a track at a point where we feel we've reached our own limit, but to truly get to the limits of the car, and to do so responsibly and safely, a track is needed.

    That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the car without a track - I enjoy my 997S everytime I take it out.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Sure, you can determine the braking limit at 40 mph, but that's not what we're really talking about here...



    Sure it is. The original post I responded to identified "limits". In terms of braking, the threshold of ABS engagement is the limit. It doesn't matter if you achieve this at 160 mph, or 60 mph, it's the limit. As for acceleration, the limit is WOT to redline - which can be done in the first two gears without breaking the speed limit.

    The discussion is not about "exhilaration", "thrill" or improving lap times.

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    PSM will allow most of us to get by on either a road or a track at a point where we feel we've reached our own limit...



    I don't drive with the PSM "on".

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Dock, I'm not having any difficulty whatsoever. Now you are playing a game of semantics and know full well what I'm talking about. As you say, any "limit" can be identified in isolation, but I get the idea that you are exploiting the abilities of your car on a more complete fashion and are, indeed, "linking" all these elements -- acceleration, deceleration, and braking. Like any pursuit, the whole is greater the sum of the individual skills or pieces. If you aren't doing this, and are pussyfooting around with you car, then good -- because that means you, indeed, are not a menace and are just blowing smoke. That is actually what you should be doing in public, being very cautious, and I have no beef with that. However, it also means you have an incomplete picture of what your car can do, if you aren't putting everything together, and I get the feeling that you think very highly of your own competence level and would dispute that. I also would suspect you are driving fairly hard, if you actions correspond to your talk about violating the "limit" of your car on your favorite roads. This has absolutely nothing to do with lap times, and everything to do with safety and overall competence. I consider all of my track experience driver education. I am under no illusion that I am a race car driver or that I am doing anything very related to racing or "sport." I sense that you cannot be persuaded, so I yield to you the last word on the subject, and to others the task of advocating driver training and safety.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    Dock, I'm not having any difficulty whatsoever. Now you are playing a game of semantics and know full well what I'm talking about.



    I'm not in any way playing a semantics game. As I have said here previously, I responded to this quote of yours...

    Quote:
    I don't consider myself a "track rat" but I do like to get out there to learn the limits of the car. You just can't do that on public roads. If you do, you are endangering the public.





    Do you deny that you said this?

    I opined that you can "learn the limits" on the right public road without endangering the public. "Linking" the limits does not change what the limits are, it just gives the driver the opportunity to have more fun.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    As you say, any "limit" can be identified in isolation...



    Good, then you agree with my basic premise.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    ...but I get the idea that you are exploiting the abilities of your car on a more complete fashion and are, indeed, "linking" all these elements -- acceleration, deceleration, and braking.



    If the road is safe I will max perform my Turbo through several corners, but there is no "exploring" about it.

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    I sense that you cannot be persuaded...



    Persuaded to what? I believe the performance limits of the Turbo can be safely observed on the right public roads, and you agree with me.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    I don't drive with the PSM "on".



    Neither do I.

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    I don't drive with the PSM "on".



    Neither do I.




    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    jlr said:But, I'm disputing that you are going to become an accomplished driver, who can consistently apply technique and be able to drive near that limit safely on regular basis, simply by hot-rodding around on the public highways.



    You're having trouble identifying the subject here, and staying on topic. The issue is not about going out, and on a high percentage basis, driving the Turbo to the very edge of it's cornering performance ability on public roads. You talked about not being able to find the limits of the Turbo on public roads. This is very different than a discussion about the "sport" of tracking a sports car trying to improve some personal best lap time.

    Performance limits, as they pertain to a sports car (Turbo in this case), are limited to acceleration, braking, and cornering. Taking the Turbo to the maximum performance limit in either acceleration or braking is just no big deal at all on a public road. The cornering limit takes some work since the right road has to be available to accomplish that - but it is attainable. So the basic fundamental limits of the car (the original discussion here) can be realized on public roads. There is no "personal best" in terms of lap times, a measurable criteria, when it comes to max performing on the street, so that objective has to be saved for the track where all three performance elements (accel/decel/cornering) have to be linked. This is where the "sport" aspect comes into play. But it is critical to remember that this has nothing to do with identifying the basic performance limits/markers of the car, which was the point I was originally responding to.

    When I'm driving on mountain roads, my objective is NOT to max perform my car for the *entire time* I'm in the curves...I don't need to do that for personal satisfaction or ego building.

    When I was in the Air Force, we flew a sortie called "advanced handling characteristics" where the entire performance envelope of the jet was explored. The sortie had nothing to do with the actual employment of the aircraft in it's combat role - the objective was just to identify the performance limits. Given the right roads, this same approach can be taken with the Turbo.




    Interesting debate/discussion.....

    Personally, tend to be very risk/reward conscious....and would argue that one can enjoy many/most relevant aspects of any perf car on interesting public roads at fairly civilized speeds...sort of like enjoying a fine wine....no need to get drunk/guzzle the stuff to optimize enjoyment of the grape juice.....

    Tracks are by no means risk-free.....need to exclusively rent out a well-laid-out track to control who's on it when one's driving; where is closest competent trauma ctr if the unavoidable occurs?; and one needs to have self-discipline on track to not approach/exceed lims of one's own driving skills vs car's perf capabilities....

    IMO, prefer a set of interesting mtn twisties within 1 hr of my home/a competent trauma ctr where any high-end pts are quickly "prioritized"/where local law enfcmt is very familiar w/local high-end, but responsible, perf car drivers...and close to my office and decent grub for post-drive work/refueling.....

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    VKSF, are you talking about heaven?

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    still comparing chevy with porsche ?

    in the language of the street .. the Z06 is the top of the line on its company , thats mean its the moooost powerful car on chevy , the R&D spend 1000s of night trying to build this car , ok , to be honest , i appreciate it , its well built (comparing it with preveous models) ... but dont compare the performance with 997tt ... caompare it with the top of the line on porsche (997 GT2) ... huh ! .. still thinking to win a point when you compare the Z06 with GT2 ? ... when you say (cercuit time) , try to catch the 997 GT3 if you see him on the track , you cant say any thing , its non-turbo , 3.6 Ltr ... what an enginering ! less than the Z06 alot of hp .. more thant the Z06 alot of kg's .. not equal cars to compare , but the only thing that make the GT3 faster is that the porsche logo on the front .. the 997tt is the everyday car , if you want more power , go for chip tuning , bye bye Z06 "even with chip , camshaft and exhaust moded " .. but still its a nice try from chevy .

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Not a bad rebuttal

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    hello chevy ... 997tt with only ECU upgrade .. 540hp .. boooo ! ...

    Re: 997TT vs Z06 vs F430 from an owners perspective.

    Quote:
    turbo_S said:
    hello chevy ... 997tt with only ECU upgrade .. 540hp .. boooo ! ...


    That doesn't mean too much as the Z06 already has 530hp stock and it weighs significantly less.

     
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