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    Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Rc et al,

    here is an interesting brand commnetary
    http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

    and here is the porsche comment. i know some of you find a use for Cayenne, but..... what outcome? thanks for your comments

    "And then, there's Porsche. Refashioning itself as a company with a "diversified" product portfolio in order to position itself for the future, CEO Wendelin Wiedeking and his band of accountants turned Porsche away from its own heritage, traditions and history in order to enter the truck business. The plan was to orchestrate short-term profitability, with the added benefit of fortifying the company for the long haul so that they can continue to do what they do best - build sports cars. And on paper, Wiedeking was right. Porsche is ringing up huge profit numbers, and high-fiving is rampant in the halls at headquarters.

    It's great to be brilliant, right?

    Sure it is, except for one key thing: Porsche once was one of just two exclusive makers of sports cars left in the world, along with Ferrari. Now, Porsche sells more SUVs than it does sports cars. Wiedeking insists that Porsche can continue to do this with impunity, that no matter how many trucks they sell, Porsche will always be known for its sports cars. But at some point, the wheels will come off. Right now, Porsche sports car sales are down overall by 25 percent, with Boxsters down over 50 percent, just in time for the release of a new 911 this fall.

    Porsche was once known as one of the world's great builders of racing cars, and its legendary founder insisted on racing to improve the breed. Yet, Porsche made the decision to stop competing for the overall win at the 24 Hours of Le Mans six years ago in order to pay for the development of the Cayenne. At some point, the people buying the Cayenne will not only forget what Porsche once stood for, they won't care. At some point, the only Porsche people will recognize will be the derivative, bloated SUV that's littering the shopping mall parking lots of suburbia. And at that point, Porsche will have officially "jumped the shark." It will have squandered its legacy, turned its back on its founding principles and become just another car company - and the ultimate punch line to a very bad joke.

    Brand authenticity? Porsche destroyed it - and its credibility - with one fateful decision. "

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Are you sure you want to post that here? There are some here that don't like to hear anything negative about Porsche no matter how true.

    We'll see if the 997 can equal or better the 996 sales... my money says no.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I dont like the article, but rather to discuss it or its bs, I would like to know who actualy wrote it...since it doesnt ay it.

    Watt, I see you are from Malibu not far away from Nick, do you guys go to the same McDonalds with your ferraris to come with this type of articles?

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Watt my dear e-friend, you have given in to the dark side of the force!!!
    interesting articles, thanks.
    I like to think of the Cayenne as a mean to get more money to develope better sport cars.
    I must admit I like the 997 a lot, but I am not in love with it.
    It's slightly more powerful than the 996 but it's also slightly heavier. And I know it's 80% new, but I see both of them, I really find them similar.
    I'll see it in real this week end.
    Take care mate, and enjoy you Stradale, fantastic machine, although overpriced IMO but that's Ferrari for you.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    lev said:
    I dont like the article, but rather to discuss it or its bs, I would like to know who actualy wrote it...since it doesnt ay it.

    Watt, I see you are from Malibu not far away from Nick, do you guys go to the same McDonalds with your ferraris to come with this type of articles?



    LEV,

    the author shown at the top:
    by Peter M. DeLorenzo, read about him on the site, and read the entire article on the link

    read autoextremist regualrly it will be good for you. i have generally posted their comments on 6, but thought to see the reaction here. many treat porsche as a religion, but dont see the corruption by the current "pope" or "wide-king", altho' peter schutz did the same

    i have owned over 40 porsches in the last 21 years -- so i believe i've earned the right to question the future and the present.


    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I guess we should be fair. There is some truth to this article, in my opinion. We can call it monetary issues but Porsche should have stayed in racing if not in Le Mans at least factory GT racing.

    I have nothing against the Cayenne at all but they should stick more to their roots which is competition. Brand Reputation can carry the company for just so long and after while if there is no major competition under Porsche's belt the brand fades away automatically.

    To give a clear example, everyone bragged about Mercedes-Benz for their reliability and German quality and so forth, but what was MB reputation once has been long gone down the toilette. I just hope that this won't happen to Porsche, not the quality of their cars but other factors.

    Of course it still not too late, we may hear some surprising news that they will come back to racing again; I hope so.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    many treat porsche as a religion, but dont see the corruption by the current "pope" or "wide-king", altho' peter schutz did the same



    Interesting comments Watt. Not so long ago, you were attacking me for saying similar things. So what brought on the change of heart?

    Anyway, always happy to hear your views.

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I heard Porsche brought along a BMW 645 Ci and an AMG E55 to the Florida dealer unveiling for comparison . I guess that's the type of car they see in the 997 intender's radar for the American market and who the sales force is supposed to conquest .That also means more " luxe " to move the metal until the " hard core " low volume halo versions arrive.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    @watt: What are doing with "40 porsches in the last 21 years"?
    Every 6 months a new car!?

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    PF said:
    @watt: What are doing with "40 porsches in the last 21 years"?
    Every 6 months a new car!?



    yes, e.g., my last slate grey GT2 came in March and left in JUne, last GT3 came in NOvember left in March.... and on and on... etc

    one example of P's loss from not racing:

    the PCCB issue. Ferrari is having no problems with their CCB, but they have forged their knowledge in years of F1 brake development.

    P has little?/no racing experience with PCCB, so untold development did NOT occur, as it used to when P was racing. all that development and engr. skill went into the truck... and is lost for all time in terms of foregone sports car development. choices have been made that irrefutably lessen the capability of future sports cars...

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Watt,

    You must be joking (and so article does too) - Porsche isnt involved in racing anymore?

    Have a look at GT class racing and see who competes there and win.

    Sure Porsche is not in Formula one now, but why it should be there. How many parts from GT cup racing of Porsche find its way to the production car and how many from Formula One of Ferrari find to your spider (we all heard by now Nick explanation about F1 trans he has in his car).

    Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo and few other sport car brands are all in GT class. So who is he king of GT racing today? Its so obvious, I dont know why we even talking about this.

    Instead of jumping from one Porsche to another, keep them, drive them and race them

    Or buy Ferrari Formula 1 car and drive it daily, then hands down you will drive a car which is more sport car than a Porsche

    Ferrari ceramic composite brakes

    Quote:
    watt said:
    Ferrari is having no problems with their CCB, but they have forged their knowledge in years of F1 brake development.



    This isn't what I've heard Watt. What I'm hearing is that the Ferrari ceramic composite reliability is coming from the fact that most of their cars are treated pretty easily. But those that are being tracked are developing similar problems. I personally saw one set that had been tracked at the Nürburgring and after a very few kilometres it already showed signs of rotor overheating.

    I think Ferrari's race experience with carbon/carbon brakes probably isn't that relevant for their street ceramic composite brakes. I don't see the massive flows of cooling air on the street Ferraris that I see on their F1 cars.

    But maybe you know something I don't?

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I agree with you watt...

    I think Porsche needs to refocus their attention to what they were known for before they lose all traces of a marvelous racing pedigree.

    I'll be cheering when they return to FACTORY sponsored racing.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    Quote:
    PF said:
    @watt: What are doing with "40 porsches in the last 21 years"?
    Every 6 months a new car!?



    yes, e.g., my last slate grey GT2 came in March and left in JUne, last GT3 came in NOvember left in March.... and on and on... etc

    one example of P's loss from not racing:

    the PCCB issue. Ferrari is having no problems with their CCB, but they have forged their knowledge in years of F1 brake development.

    P has little?/no racing experience with PCCB, so untold development did NOT occur, as it used to when P was racing. all that development and engr. skill went into the truck... and is lost for all time in terms of foregone sports car development. choices have been made that irrefutably lessen the capability of future sports cars...



    Watt, I tend to respect your views as much as anyone on this board....very few on rennteam can claim to have owned/tracked extensively as many P/F as you have .

    However, I am a bit skeptical about how much racing tech really transfers to street cars for any co. Perhaps F has more reliable ceramic brakes than P, but I have seen several reports that 360 (and Enzo?) have tendency to become fireballs after collisions b/c of fuel tank/lines proximity to hot engine components; where's that race tech where one really needs it? Also, F doesn't even offer side airbags which seem fairly useful when an SUV slams into you on street (admittedly, not a race situation but a troubling prospect for most affluent owners). Seems to me that Enzo/CGT buyer base is more concerned about living unharmed to survive another day unmaimed than about pesky ceramic brake issues that money can solve more readily by swapping brakes/cars.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    However, I am a bit skeptical about how much racing tech really transfers to street cars for any co. Perhaps F has more reliable ceramic brakes than P, but I have seen several reports that 360 (and Enzo?) have tendency to become fireballs after collisions b/c of fuel tank/lines proximity to hot engine components; where's that race tech where one really needs it? Also, F doesn't even offer side airbags which seem fairly useful when an SUV slams into you on street (admittedly, not a race situation but a troubling prospect for most affluent owners). Seems to me that Enzo/CGT buyer base is more concerned about living unharmed to survive another day unmaimed than about pesky ceramic brake issues that money can solve more readily by swapping brakes/cars.



    This has always been true. I would not drive a Ferrari daily and perhaps, subconsciously, that's why they are driven so little. Those cars were never safe in a crash - unquestionable fact. On the other hand an 11 is very safe - and where did PAG learn that? the track. It does not matter if the winning teams are factory or private - what matters is that they are on the track and win.

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Sorry. A little OT.
    @watt:
    I saw in your profile that you own a "997 tt".
    The 997 came on market this month! But no turbo.
    Where do you got this car?

    btw: I own my cars 4-5 YEARS (not months)

    P PCCB: I drove my GT3 with pccb 20,000 km, no problems. The GT3 is my daily driver, but I'm on racetracks too.

    greetings from europe
    where sometimes the sun is also shining

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    When he had P-cars, he was bashing F-cars for being expensive to repair and maintain. Now that he drives an F-car, P-cars are junk. What's next? A Lambo? Maybe everything else will be trash, then. Way to go watt...

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    PF said:
    Sorry. A little OT.
    @watt:
    I saw in your profile that you own a "997 tt".
    The 997 came on market this month! But no turbo.
    Where do you got this car?

    btw: I own my cars 4-5 YEARS (not months)

    P PCCB: I drove my GT3 with pccb 20,000 km, no problems. The GT3 is my daily driver, but I'm on racetracks too.

    greetings from europe
    where sometimes the sun is also shining



    it was a 97 993TT, my error, i sold it last month.

    i too had 17,000 mi of perfect PCCB experience, but ask steven about his. and one of my best UK pals just toasted his RS rotors in 5 track days -- as steven was saying all along...

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    Radar said:
    When he had P-cars, he was bashing F-cars for being expensive to repair and maintain. Now that he drives an F-car, P-cars are junk. What's next? A Lambo? Maybe everything else will be trash, then. Way to go watt...



    as i said some treat P as a religion and must have a jihad at any criticism. if you want to see my criticism on F's just search here, on 6 and f chat. most human designed devices can be improved.

    and F's have been unreliable and still are more expensive to maintain. on unreliability 2 points come out with more knowledge:
    - not driving them as many owners do makes them unreliable
    - 360's have much better statistical reliablity

    all the data i have so far shew CS brakes doing well in heavy track use. the way to find out: stephen buy one!!!

    and radar -- you should see how the F boys re-act with shocked indignation when i tell them how much faster a Gt2 is than CS, why you should start talking over there!!!

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar


    Watt, I tend to respect your views as much as anyone on this board....very few on rennteam can claim to have owned/tracked extensively as many P/F as you have .

    However, I am a bit skeptical about how much racing tech really transfers to street cars for any co. Perhaps F has more reliable ceramic brakes than P, but I have seen several reports that 360 (and Enzo?) have tendency to become fireballs after collisions b/c of fuel tank/lines proximity to hot engine components; where's that race tech where one really needs it? Also, F doesn't even offer side airbags which seem fairly useful when an SUV slams into you on street (admittedly, not a race situation but a troubling prospect for most affluent owners). Seems to me that Enzo/CGT buyer base is more concerned about living unharmed to survive another day unmaimed than about pesky ceramic brake issues that money can solve more readily by swapping brakes/cars.



    hey now we have a good discussion going-

    my hypothesis is certainly open to ?, but i really want P to re-enter top class racing regardless. Mr. P sure believed in it for raod car development

    as to 360 fires -- this does concern me. a friend of jakemates' on 6 was badly burned recently,he posted the car remains photo on 6... who has data on how many F's have burned?

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    Quote:
    watt said:
    a friend of jakemates' on 6 was badly burned recently,he posted the car remains photo on 6... who has data on how many F's have burned?



    You wouldn't have a link to this would you Watt ???

    Thanx.

    Stephen

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    I didn't know anything about the fires on Ferraris - if it is true, than it doesn't sound too good.

    Any car manufacturer has to comply to current crash standards in the countries he sells his car in. As long as these standards don't improve - and to me it is questionable if "standards" alone will ever help - there will always be carmanufacturers that tend to walk on the edge of these limits.

    Porsche and Ferrari both have their company own guidelines how to construct or design a car - even if this might be not as defined as back in the time when Ferry and Enzo where the heads of these companies.

    I honestly doubt the often mentioned links between racing and street use today. I do believe that even now there are examples for a successful adaptation (e.g. GT1 engine block in 996TT and GT models) but a fair amount is marketing. BMW and Ferrari stress the adaptation of F1-/SMS-boxes for a decade now! Big deal...!

    Funnily the comments Watt gave about the brakes is rather a racing issue than a street driving issue. F1 cars use carbon brakes that work in a very small temperature window only, so below 300 'C you won't get any response from them - the difficult thing is to make them work on the street also! That's why there was no direct transfer of brake technology from F1 to serial cars - hence it took so long until Ferrari and Porsche adapted them on their models. I truly hope and expect that Porsche's engineers can be as creative without track challenge as they did with it!

    Besides that several things are reglemented in racing (e.g. materials for brake rotors, transmission type). Just as an example the regulated diameter of air-intakes in the ALMS GT-class favoured small-displacement engines with a rather high number of cylinders - BMW had to adapt a 4.0-V8 into the M3 because their 3.3-I6 was at the end of development and wasn't as competitive with the airintake. Porsche on the other hand complained after BMW turned to the V8!

    Anyways I do agree that Porsche should return to factory racing - it should be a challenge to them, a marketing issue and also bring enthusiasm to their engineers!

    Re: Porsche no longer a sportscar

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12321&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

    onlya photo really, but jake told me it was self-induced error but car burned and the guy too wherever he was not covered with cotton clothes [had shorts and t shirt on]

    The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    watt said:
    all the data i have so far shew CS brakes doing well in heavy track use. the way to find out: stephen buy one!!!




    Am I really unqualified to post anything about the Ferrari unless I own and drive one? Must I jump off a cliff before I am allowed to declare that it hurts when you land??

    With due respect Watt, I was clear as to the nature of the information I provided. I labelled that which was second-hand as second-hand and I was clear that my observations of one of the Stradale Challenge cars was of a car that I did not own. But the fact that they weren't firsthand impressions or that I wasn't the owner of the car who's brakes I was inspecting, does that mean that the information is without value and that I am not entitled to post??

    I think I'm going to keep on doing what I have been doing al along which is to add to the conversation where I can and try to be very exacting with the information I bring to the table.

    I think that policy has been proved out on the PCCB issue where I was one of the very first to publicly raise the alarm. I think that my comments turned out to be quite a service to the Porsche community. Many people saved lots of money and aggravation by not buying PCCB's for their particular intended use based upon the information I provided. PAG and its affiliates (including your personal "Deep Throat" within PCNA) were ultimately shown to have been providing misinformation. What I said made a difference. I'm proud of that.

    Stephen

    Ferrari fire

    God that is scary! There was an accident at the Nürburgring about a year or so ago in which two were killed. The accident wasn't too bad but the car burned.

    If this really is a trend, then it suggests a big problem.

    I think one thing to realise is that the reason that there is so little of the car left is because it is made out of aluminium rather than steel.

    Thank you Watt.

    Stephen

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:\I think that policy has been proved out on the PCCB issue where I was one of the very first to publicly raise the alarm. I think that my comments turned out to be quite a service to the Porsche community. Many people saved lots of money and aggravation by not buying PCCB's for their particular intended use based upon the information I provided. PAG and its affiliates (including your personal "Deep Throat" within PCNA) were ultimately shown to have been providing misinformation. What I said made a difference. I'm proud of that.

    Stephen



    I certainly can attest to that! Thanks for all of your important info over the years, Stephen!

    Re: The PCCB controversy

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    watt said:
    all the data i have so far shew CS brakes doing well in heavy track use. the way to find out: stephen buy one!!!




    Am I really unqualified to post anything about the Ferrari unless I own and drive one? Must I jump off a cliff before I am allowed to declare that it hurts when you land??

    With due respect Watt, I was clear as to the nature of the information I provided. I labelled that which was second-hand as second-hand and I was clear that my observations of one of the Stradale Challenge cars was of a car that I did not own. But the fact that they weren't firsthand impressions or that I wasn't the owner of the car who's brakes I was inspecting, does that mean that the information is without value and that I am not entitled to post??

    I think I'm going to keep on doing what I have been doing al along which is to add to the conversation where I can and try to be very exacting with the information I bring to the table.

    I think that policy has been proved out on the PCCB issue where I was one of the very first to publicly raise the alarm. I think that my comments turned out to be quite a service to the Porsche community. Many people saved lots of money and aggravation by not buying PCCB's for their particular intended use based upon the information I provided. PAG and its affiliates (including your personal "Deep Throat" within PCNA) were ultimately shown to have been providing misinformation. What I said made a difference. I'm proud of that.

    Stephen



    Seems that P is really pushing the new & improved PCCB hard...now standard on 996TTS and on 997S launch cars. Has anyone heard P's claims on what makes PCCB 2.0 better than ever? Are PCCBs fully warranty-covered for non-track use....or are owners potentially facing some $15-20K replacement bills, where failed/worn PCCBs are viewed as normal wear and tear by P?

    Re: Ferrari fire

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    God that is scary! There was an accident at the Nürburgring about a year or so ago in which two were killed. The accident wasn't too bad but the car burned.

    If this really is a trend, then it suggests a big problem.

    I think one thing to realise is that the reason that there is so little of the car left is because it is made out of aluminium rather than steel.

    Thank you Watt.

    Stephen



    the accident you refer to is very thoroughly discussed on Ferrarichat.com apparently they lost two of their members who were very close with the other members, very sad.

    i believe the car was a red 360 spider.

    Re: Ferrari fire

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    God that is scary! There was an accident at the Nürburgring about a year or so ago in which two were killed. The accident wasn't too bad but the car burned.

    If this really is a trend, then it suggests a big problem.

    I think one thing to realise is that the reason that there is so little of the car left is because it is made out of aluminium rather than steel.

    Thank you Watt.

    Stephen



    I guess I may be only half-joking when I speculate that F avoids side/head airbags to allow driver to have better chance to escape the car's likely post-collision fire....don't want too many airbags trapping the driver in a possible cremation chamber....

    Surprising to me that some hungry plaintiff's lawyer hasn't gone after F on this......just filing this lawsuit (let alone winning), detailing the fact patterns of these 360 and Enzo fires would be great publicity for F.....might even shorten those waitlists for 430....

    Re: Ferrari fire

    The Ferrari fire shown above is from a car in Irvine California. It is from:

    http://www.wreckedexotics.com/newphotos/exotics/25360_20040713_002.shtml

    He was going 130mph in a tunnel when he crashed, but I am unaware of any tunnels in Irvine. He did survive but apparrently the car was left to burn for 20 minutes.

     
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