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    Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Hey guys I don't know if this is old material but Winding Road magazine just went online with a great write up about the CaGt, the next Enzo & the 430's replacement. Like I eluded to before it doesn't sound like the successor to the Enzo will get a V12.



    http://www.windingroadonline.com/winding...dingroad.com%2F

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    So what! I'd rather a awesome twin turbocharged V8 anyway.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Quote:
    SSNISTR said:
    So what! I'd rather a awesome twin turbocharged V8 anyway.



    I guess I'm just stuck on engines in the F50 & Enzo.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Have never found WindingRoad very insightful, even vs typically clueless car mags....

    Much of elegance of 599 hp/tq deliv is its robust mid-range, NA tq deliv in context of arguably world's fastest/smoothest/most daily-useable paddleshifter gearbox....that's why, aside from F's dubious passive safety, 599 could easily make CL63/65 essentially irrelevant for even mundane, yr-round daily commuting in CA....

    One of P's major Achille's heels is its reliance on wimpy turbo motors w/glaring, unsolved turbo lag/nonlinearity issues....unsuitable for fast, urban CA fwy commuting, where one needs to solve "jigsaw puzzles" in traffic....or, for track/mtn twisties use, where turbo lag/nonlinearity is similarly less than optimal/poss destabilizing....

    Even AMG is moving away from old-tech turbo/SC motors....the new NA63 motor is superb...and, hopefully, AMG will within next 12 mos retire the ancient, heavy 65 motor for a new, latest-tech, lighter, NA V12.....more along the lines of the 599 motor....

    Would argue future for daily-useable (poor sales of Veyron, FXX, GT2, etc confirm that most affluent, car-oriented buyers want cars that they can easily daily-drive to office and drive on wkends in mtn twisties...tracks are largely irrelevant to most buyers) high-perf cars will likely be engineered around high-tq, NA motors w/fast, smart computer networks linking the gearbox/chassis damping/stab ctrls/brakes, etc in context of a platform based upon lighter materials and smart wt distrib, while optimizing active/passive safety and fuel tank crashworthiness.....along the direction of today's 599 and CL63, w/ever-faster, smarter, safer hardware/software upgrades/debugs as tech advances.....

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Quote:
    WBH said:
    Have never found WindingRoad very insightful, even vs typically clueless car mags....

    Much of elegance of 599 hp/tq deliv is its robust mid-range, NA tq deliv in context of arguably world's fastest/smoothest/most daily-useable paddleshifter gearbox....that's why, aside from F's dubious passive safety, 599 could easily make CL63/65 essentially irrelevant for even mundane, yr-round daily commuting in CA....

    One of P's major Achille's heels is its reliance on wimpy turbo motors w/glaring, unsolved turbo lag/nonlinearity issues....unsuitable for fast, urban CA fwy commuting, where one needs to solve "jigsaw puzzles" in traffic....or, for track/mtn twisties use, where turbo lag/nonlinearity is similarly less than optimal/poss destabilizing....

    Even AMG is moving away from old-tech turbo/SC motors....the new NA63 motor is superb...and, hopefully, AMG will within next 12 mos retire the ancient, heavy 65 motor for a new, latest-tech, lighter, NA V12.....more along the lines of the 599 motor....

    Would argue future for daily-useable (poor sales of Veyron, FXX, GT2, etc confirm that most affluent, car-oriented buyers want cars that they can easily daily-drive to office and drive on wkends in mtn twisties...tracks are largely irrelevant to most buyers) high-perf cars will likely be engineered around high-tq, NA motors w/fast, smart computer networks linking the gearbox/chassis damping/stab ctrls/brakes, etc in context of a platform based upon lighter materials and smart wt distrib, while optimizing active/passive safety and fuel tank crashworthiness.....along the direction of today's 599 and CL63, w/ever-faster, smarter, safer hardware/software upgrades/debugs as tech advances.....



    I'm sorry VKSF, but Porsches aren't built for urban freeway commuting in the californian mountain highway twisties with no police and loads of jigsaw puzzles. Freeway commuting doesn't only exist in the Bay area and I can assure you that the Turbo is quite capable of handling it. The lag also isn't nearly as bad as you purport it to be, but calling the engine WIMPY? Are you kidding ? It would seem that unless the car has at least 6 litres of displacement, two tons of safety reinforcements around the chassis and the absolutely newest state-of-the-art interior electronics and creature comforts, it becomes DATED by your standards. I'm very sorry, but that is a very sad place to be if you are actually serious. Appreciating a capable sports car for what it is and ENJOYING it for many years to come isn't something I would sweep aside for the newest and greatest from Exxon-Benz, just so my friends don't mock me and which I have to trade in after 6 months at the latest - the car isn't even run-in properly during that time and then you have to get rid of it. I seriously don't understand how your mind as a car enthusiast works and this isn't an attack on you, just a very curious question.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    505 lbs of wimpy torque:)

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Mentioning a 599 and a CL63 in 1 sentence? the horror...

    talk about wishfull thinking!

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Quote:
    loe said:
    Mentioning a 599 and a CL63 in 1 sentence? the horror...

    talk about wishfull thinking!



    +1

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Ferrari seems to get it - weight is the enemy.

    If that means using turbo chargers - fine. MB on the other hand offers the CL63, which weighs 4700+lbs.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Ferrari will have turbo on their future engines and direct injection, or else won't be able to comply with future emissions euro 6 etc...

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    I think Ferrari is definitely on the right track. With the focus on eliminating undesired weight but I find some of the information from Winding Road contradicting things I've read from the previous issue of evo.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    I read the article and found some of their conclusion plausible. Their discussion of the 2+2 is worth posting but I was unable to do so.

    Can you?

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Simple strategy ...
    If my car is lighter, I need less HP and a smaller engine to do equivalent work than if my car was heavier.

    Turbos = Free Horsepower with minimum added weight and no parasitic drag. Variable Vane Turbos (which by the way, Porsche IS NOT the first to use in passenger car. They were first used in the 80's by Dodge in the Shelby Daytona Turbo coupe based on the Dodge K-Car of all things) practically eliminates lag to only a split second pause before the rush.

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari



    could you put some fotos from this Dodge models please? are you shore they had variable turbos?

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Ferrari seems to get it - weight is the enemy.

    If that means using turbo chargers - fine. MB on the other hand offers the CL63, which weighs 4700+lbs.



    +1, a 600 hp twin-turbo V8 in a car that weighs 1200 kg is the way to go

    Re: Bitter Sweet Future At Ferrari

    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:


    could you put some fotos from this Dodge models please? are you shore they had variable turbos?




    My apologies it wasn't the Daytona, it was the Shelby Dodge Shadow. Limited production - only 1000 or so were made. I remember my cousin had one, I was just starting H.S. He told me it was like having a twin turbo in a single tubro since it could control how fast the air spun the compressor.

    Porsche is lying ... American's had it FIRST.

    http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/shelby/sheldod9.htm



     
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