Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 991 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Sport Auto just made a point in their recent issue: The 991 Carrera (the one without "S" and more than 200 hp less than the M6) beats the new BMW M6 in Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs by a small margin (1:13,1 min. vs. 1:13,2). I suppose the difference would have been even slightly bigger with PDK on the 991 Carrera.

    Of course this comparison may look stupid, especially since the M6 is one second faster from 0-100 kph and even a whopping 5 seconds faster from 0-200 kph but for those who want a nice track toy, the 991 Carrera definitely seems to be the better choice, especially since the car is also 30-50k EUR cheaper compared to the M6 (depending on options).

    However, this comparison leaves out one little detail: There are usually much better deals available in Germany for a M6 than for a 991 Carrera, so the price difference may not be that huge in reality, depending on the country you're shopping your car in.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    I don't think they would appeal to the same type of buyer at a given point in time.

    Someone might decide to migrate after years of 911 ownership to M6 for reasons of more comfort for example, or vice versa for the more sporty 911 feel, but I don't think someone would evaluate both as new car purchases at the same time.

    As to deals, I would like to get a deal on most purchases from the money point of view but on the downside in the case of a car, it means I am getting a slow moving product that fewer people wish to own without the incentive, for good reasons most probably. For people that a new special car is still an emotional purchase, deals are not very relevant IMO.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    That is impressive as a track time versus the much more powerful M6. Although I would agree that the cars don't necessarily appeal the same type of buyer.

    To take it one step further, AMS tested the 981 S around Hockenheim Short at 1:13,8. It is EUR 30k less than the Carrera and half price to the M6 (pending options). As a "cheap" track toy I would chose this kiss


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    bluelines:

    That is impressive as a track time versus the much more powerful M6. Although I would agree that the cars don't necessarily appeal the same type of buyer.

    To take it one step further, AMS tested the 981 S around Hockenheim Short at 1:13,8. It is EUR 30k less than the Carrera and half price to the M6 (pending options). As a "cheap" track toy I would chose this kiss

    The Boxster S doesn't have two rear seats. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    RC:

    The Boxster S doesn't have two rear seats. Smiley

    True. If rear seats is a requirement for a "cheap" track toy then it is off the list. For me it is not a requirement Smiley


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    bluelines:
    RC:

    The Boxster S doesn't have two rear seats. Smiley

    True. If rear seats is a requirement for a "cheap" track toy then it is off the list. For me it is not a requirement Smiley

    If you want a cheap track toy, the Boxster is the wrong car. I would get a used Opel Speedster instead. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    RC:

    If you want a cheap track toy, the Boxster is the wrong car. I would get a used Opel Speedster instead. Smiley

    1350662339926vomit30.gif


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Is there a time for the Nissan GTR around Hockenheims Kleiner Kurs? angry


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Sport Auto clocked the 2011 Nissan GT-R (530HP) at 1:10,0 around Hockenheim Short.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    I test drove a 991S and found it to be a very comfortable GT car.  I don't see myself buying a M6 ever.  I am very willing to buy a M5 though, if it comes with AWD.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Targa Tim:

    I am very willing to buy a M5 though, if it comes with AWD.

    +1 Smiley


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Targa Tim:

    I test drove a 991S and found it to be a very comfortable GT car. 

    Do I sense a tinge of irony in that statement Tim..?!


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Budster:
    Targa Tim:

    I test drove a 991S and found it to be a very comfortable GT car. 

    Do I sense a tinge of irony in that statement Tim..?!

    991 really is a dual personality car.  Very comfortable and easy to drive (PDK), yet faster than previous generation.

    If one is going to buy a sport/GT/daily car at close to or above 991 price range, then I see no reason to not buy 991 but anything else.

    Too bad I don't have any more garage space, and don't want to get rid of any of my current toys.Smiley


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    bluelines:

    Sport Auto clocked the 2011 Nissan GT-R (530HP) at 1:10,0 around Hockenheim Short.

    Thank you bluelines. I like the 991 better then the M6 but if you care about lap times compared to price levels the Nissan trounces both of them.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    True. If you only consider the fixed price to acquire the car... and intend to drive one lap at a time with extended coffee breaks in-between angry

    Unfortunately I think the GT-R running cost will dig a hole in your wallet for tires and brakes if you drive it hard on the track. I am also, rightly or wrongly, suspicious about the long-term durability of the car.

    However, this is not an issue since I am more concerned about driving pleasure than lap times kiss As such I am still standing behind my post above that the 981 S is the best buck for the money.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    neunelf:

    Is there a time for the Nissan GTR around Hockenheims Kleiner Kurs? angry

    Latest model...1:10,1 min.

    Quite impressive too. 0-100 kph in 3.4 seconds, 0-200 kph in 11.7 seconds.

    A real bang for the buck...if there aren't any technical issues. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    bluelines:
    Targa Tim:

    I am very willing to buy a M5 though, if it comes with AWD.

    +1 Smiley

    So many people I know didn't go for the new M5 because of the lack of AWD. My dealer also claimed that he has many test drives but customers always ask if there is AWD for the car. I think BMW got the message...there are rumors of an AWD version of the M5 with the facelift. If true, this would put huge pressure on Porsche, especially price-wise. Currently, the only justification for me to pay a huge premium for the Panamera Turbo S is and was the AWD. 

    With AWD, the M5 would have been my first choice to be honest. Almost 80k EUR difference...I could get a well optioned Boxster S for my wife for this money.

    I hope Porsche reads this: If they want to stay ahead of BMW M GmbH, at least Porsche needs to provide substantially more juice under the hood. I think this is exactly what they are going to do with the new 991 Turbo, I truly hope the current rumors are right. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    RC:
    bluelines:
    Targa Tim:

    I am very willing to buy a M5 though, if it comes with AWD.

    +1 Smiley

    So many people I know didn't go for the new M5 because of the lack of AWD. My dealer also claimed that he has many test drives but customers always ask if there is AWD for the car. I think BMW got the message...there are rumors of an AWD version of the M5 with the facelift. If true, this would put huge pressure on Porsche, especially price-wise. Currently, the only justification for me to pay a huge premium for the Panamera Turbo S is and was the AWD. 

    With AWD, the M5 would have been my first choice to be honest. Almost 80k EUR difference...I could get a well optioned Boxster S for my wife for this money.

    I hope Porsche reads this: If they want to stay ahead of BMW M GmbH, at least Porsche needs to provide substantially more juice under the hood. I think this is exactly what they are going to do with the new 991 Turbo, I truly hope the current rumors are right. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    Yes, they must miss many customers due to this. Would be great to see AWD as an option on the M5.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    AWD on the M5 would literally kill Panamera Turbo/Turbo S sale figures. I am very surprised BMW did not realize that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Yes, it would be a real threat to Audi RS6 and maybe RS4 too.


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    RC:

    AWD on the M5 would literally kill Panamera Turbo/Turbo S sale figures. I am very surprised BMW did not realize that.

    +1.  Not only price saving for the same performance, but the benefit of carrying one more passenger.

    If they make an estate version, it may also kill some sales of Cayenne Turbo/Turbo S.Smiley


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Targa Tim:
    RC:

    AWD on the M5 would literally kill Panamera Turbo/Turbo S sale figures. I am very surprised BMW did not realize that.

    +1.  Not only price saving for the same performance, but the benefit of carrying one more passenger.

    If they make an estate version, it may also kill some sales of Cayenne Turbo/Turbo S.Smiley

    In case you missed it...there is a X5M and X6 M available from BMW. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    With all due respect to BMW, their models are rather ordinary next to Porsche. People are willing to pay more for the best, especially since BMW are not exactly in the value for money category.

    in theory their M cars should have killed the 911, and top of the range  Panamera and Cayenne. Which is not the case of course. Buyers are either too stupid or know something that cannot be conveyed in just specification figures.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    reginos:

    With all due respect to BMW, their models are rather ordinary next to Porsche. People are willing to pay more for the best, especially since BMW are not exactly in the value for money category.

    in theory their M cars should have killed the 911, and top of the range  Panamera and Cayenne. Which is not the case of course. Buyers are either too stupid or know something that cannot be conveyed in just specification figures.

    I think you are wrong. A lot of buyers are value oriented, even if they have money to spend for more expensive cars.

    A Cayenne or a Panamera isn't really the Porsche, it is a Porsche. These models are fine models, no question about it but they are not cars which are not really replaceable like the icon 911. I think the latest Sport Auto comparison between a 991 Carrera (not "S") and the new BMW M6 makes a point.

    So yes, if people aren't shopping for an icon or something extremely special, the M GmbH comes into play. When I chose the X5M over the Cayenne Turbo, it was for a reason: Cost. The difference was high enough to make me go for the X5M instead. Both cars have similar performance. While the Panamera Turbo S seems to easily outrun the new BMW M5 on the Nordschleife, the difference is more than 10 seconds as far as I remember, in real life, the performance difference may only matter in a stoplight run. 
     

    Would you really pay 80k EUR more for a better track performance on a sedan? With AWD, the new M5 would surely hit 0-100 kph in 3.6-.3.8 seconds, similar to the Panamera Turbo S.

    Again...we are talking about 80k EUR, not 8k EUR. Yes, the Panamera is more special but for me, this is actually more of a problem because it attracts much more attention than I need or want.

    Porsche needs to start to be more superior than the competition in the future. Remember the first Cayenne Turbo, it wiped out the ML55 AMG competition. Remember the first 993 Turbo, it wiped out even exotics as competitors.

    Porsche needs to give the customer more for the money. Much more. The new 991 Turbo has been rumored at 560 hp. This would be sensational if true. It would also be a good start for a new superiority of Porsche. A power increase alone won't do the job but the new tri-turbo technology in conjunction with improvements here and there will make the difference. Porsche needs to keep the competition at a distance and if they want to hit Ferrari with a new model between the current 911 Turbo and the 918, they need to do a very good job. Just being equal or slightly better won't cut it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    RC:
    neunelf:

    Is there a time for the Nissan GTR around Hockenheims Kleiner Kurs? angry

    Latest model...1:10,1 min.

    Quite impressive too. 0-100 kph in 3.4 seconds, 0-200 kph in 11.7 seconds.

    A real bang for the buck...if there aren't any technical issues. Smiley

    Again, it is strange that we forgot 991CS time from Supertest-1:10,4min... Yes, that example of 991CS was equiped with PDK, -20mm/PDCC, PCCB, 20" Techno wheels with 305 rears etc. Still, that shows how important are latest tehnical gimmicks on 991 series.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    KresoF1:

    Again, it is strange that we forgot 991CS time from Supertest-1:10,4min... Yes, that example of 991CS was equiped with PDK, -20mm/PDCC, PCCB, 20" Techno wheels with 305 rears etc. Still, that shows how important are latest tehnical gimmicks on 991 series.

    +1 Smiley


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    BTW, test 991 was equiped with PASM, but NOT with -20mm/PASM.


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    ... and with MT and not with PDK Smiley


    --

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    BMW X6 4.0d * Mini Cooper S Cabrio * 991 (02/2013)


    Re: 991 Carrera vs. new BMW M6 (the impossible comparison?)

    Sidney:

    ... and with MT and not with PDK Smiley

    The BMW tested had Carbon-Ceramic brakes whereas the Carrera only normal Steel brakes.


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/11/24 6:53 AM
    GnilM
    752775 1796
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    430434 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    258452 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    255387 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    79499 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5248 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    868033 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    801629 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    383895 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/15/24 10:24 PM
    mcdelaug
    381810 1444
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    365283 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    363994 797
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 4/21/23 8:09 AM
    the-missile
    285590 550
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    284145 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    257947 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    235393 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    222708 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    218798 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    165715 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    137776 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    114745 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    107020 685
    Others Valkyrie final design? 4/28/23 2:45 AM
    Rossi
    99105 219
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    83384 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    74846 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    52849 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    24534 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    20869 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19108 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16383 120
    128 items found, displaying 1 to 30.