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    Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    The following is a video taken this fall of a lap at Nürburgring in a GT3 by Ulf Karlsson during a public session:

    Ulf Karlsson GT3 7:45 BTG

    The time is 7:45 BTG. "Bridge to Gentry" is used because flying laps are not possible during public open days. To convert this to a full lap time you would need to add about 23-24 seconds.

    If you then wanted to compare this to Walter Röhrl's record time of 7:56 you would probably also want to add about 10 more seconds to Ulf's time as Ulf was on Pirelli Corsa tyres while Röhrl was on stock street tyres.

    So slower than Röhrl but still the fastest I've ever seen in a GT3. Which makes me wonder how Röhrl is able to do it.

    The lap is especially notable because there is absolutely no other traffic - very rare at a public session.

    This video first appeared on the Ringers list. Anyone wishing to mirror this video is welcome to do so.

    Note that the size is 109MB and the bitrate 1500 so you will need a broadband connection to download it and a pretty fast computer to watch it. No guarantee of how long it will be available.

    Happy motoring!!

    S.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    I told you that I highly doubt the 7 min. 45 sec. claim.

    The 7 min 57 sec. Walter Roehrl drove on the Nordschleife was on Pirelli P-Zero tires which had, as far as I know, a prototype compound. Walter Roehrl also used a factory car which has been set up by the factory to match the Nordschleife perfectly. Driving conditions were perfect and he did as far as I know several runs to reach this time. Also keep in mind that Walter Roehrl knows the Nordschleife like his backyard.

    Another thing: Horst v. Saurma did the Nordschleife in 8 min. 03 sec. in a GT3. He's also a pro on the Nordschleife.
    The GT2 did the Nordschleife (on P-Zero Rossos with Corsa compound!) in 7 min. 46 sec. .

    Now...the best part: the GT3 Cup (a racecar on SLICKS!) did the Nordschleife in 7 min 49 sec. . Would you please explain?

    My personal conclusion: the video is very very nice, I enjoyed the ride pretty much. But this is NEVER NEVER a 7 min. 45 sec. time. Did Ulf Karlsson use a calibrated stop watch? Did he use an independent witness? How much did his car weight? Did he use a standard GT3 engine? Many questions, no answers.

    Or to make it short: I drive to the Nordschleife tomorrow, drive a nice line and claim that I did it in 7 min. 30 sec.
    Unfortunately I can't see the speedo on the video (pure intention?) and I also can see at least two little driving mistakes which have costed him at least a second or two.

    Sorry, I don't believe the 7 min. 45 sec. time, as much as I'd like to believe it.

    Slow down RC!!

    Take it easy RC.

    First, go back and actually read my posting. You'll realise that Ulf's time is not comparable to Walter Röhrl. In fact he is something like 20 seconds slower. This is entirely reasonable.

    Next, I was there on the day. I know Ulf personally. I even had dinner with him that night. Others within the group are currently capable of a 8:00 BTG but Ulf is noticably, and known to be, quicker than the rest of use. Ulf now has a lot more racing experience. This time is entirely within expectations for Ulf and believable.

    On the car that Röhrl was driving at the time of his record lap, we in the Ringers group asked the same question. We determined from various sources that Röhrl's GT3 was absolutely stock on stock tyres. So if you have new information that we're not aware of then please share it with us.

    Also on the Ringers list, I asked Ulf to compare his lap to Röhrl's lap. Here was his reply which might be interesting to all:

    In reply to:

    Why is Walter Röhrl faster than I am? A good question where there are many explanations to be found. Some major ones are that he is a World Champion, he does drive daily for his living and he does not drive his own cars. I drive seldom and only for my own pleasure in my own car. I also drive with a safety margin, which not is proper for e.g. race speed.

    To my time 7:45 BTG, about 24 seconds extra should be added to make a complete lap time. This gives 8:09 in lap time. Walter Röhrl made the complete lap in 7:56. I drove on R-tyres although my set was on their last living time. This gives me although an advantage in a number of seconds.

    Horst von Saurma drove on 8:03 on the shortened lap, which Sport Auto uses. I don't know how much time he gains with this.

    Where is Walter Röhrl faster than me? I think he is a little bit faster everywhere. My own feeling for my 7:45-lap (speeds are taken from the speedometer which not is calibrated) is:
    . Not much to do in Hatzenbach
    . Should be slightly faster over Quiddelbacher Höhe and through Flugplatz
    . Should be slightly faster in Schwedenkreuz, it should be taken with a very fine tuned slide, I had 255 km/h before turn in
    . Not much to do in Fuchsröhre
    . Not much to do through Metzgesfeld and down Kallenhard and Wehrseifen
    . Not much do to over the bridge in Adenau and through Laudakurve
    . A little bit later braking before Bergwerk
    . Should be faster through Mutkurve, 235 km/h before and 181 km/h after the bend
    . Not much to do through the Karusell and up over Hohe Acht
    . Should be slightly faster through Wipperman
    . Not much to do in Esbach, Brünnchen and Eiskurve
    . Should be slightly faster through Pflantzgarten I
    . Not much to over Sprunghügel and through Scwalbenschwantz
    . Should be slightly faster over Galgenkopf.

    In general it was a very pleasant lap and I enjoyed it a lot! It was no risk taking and I had no incidents. How much faster can I drive? I don't know. In the 24 hrs race in June I drove on 10:06 in race traffic with a 911 GT3 Cup with slick tyres on. That is for a complete lap including the new longer GP circuit. It should be about 7:50-7:55 for a complete lap on the Northern loop I think. Hopefully I will take part in the 2003 event in a 911 GT3 RS. It is the most lovely race car to drive. The response from the chassie and the song from the engine is unbelievable. I took part in the Vallelunga 6 hrs race some weeks ago in such a one. We ended up 6th overall and third in our class FIA N-GT. Most enjoyable I must say.

    I guess some of you Ringers have some comments!

    Bets regards,
    Ulf Karlsson




    A questioning mind is always a good thing but on rare occasion, you'll find that the natural laws have not been broken.

    Happy motoring!

    S.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    Wow, I really enjoyed this video. Very clean driving, that's for sure. I just hope I'll be able to master the N'ring as good as Ulf does... And I don't really care whether he had 7'45" or 7'46"...

    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Sabine in Ringtaxi

    Pierre,

    If you enjoyed the smoothness of that one then try this for something a little different:

    Sabine in the Ringtaxi

    The video was shot by Anders Jonsson. Anders was driving a GT3 and, obviously, Sabine a M5. Here is Anders' description:

    In reply to:

    I get a passenger in the car-park, Scottish guy. When we roll out, Sabine is in front of us. The day before Euan and JW had talked to Sabine about making a video where I should follow her and she would put up a show, so this was the perfect opportunity. Unfortunately the vidoe does not show how hard she is working the car. She is always making small (or large) corrections and you can see in the fast sections that she is really fast, like entry to Hatzenbach and Schwedenkreuz. In my opinion, she drives more like a car thief than a racing driver. She is spending too much time driving that Taxi and to little time doing racing! Don't tell her I said that, might get bared from the Fuchsörhre! :

    In Quiddelbacher höhe I'm distracted by a couple of "idiots" that starts waving at us. Sabine is of course used to the fans waving to her - I'm not, so I naturally braked hard because I thought there were en accident on top of the crest. Later it turns out that the idiots was Niek with family!! :-) Took me until Aremberg to catch her again! :-)

    The best moment is when Sabine makes an overtake in Kallenhard. Not the recommended way and if I understood her correctly the guy on the bike (wearing a yellow west?) was some kind of official and she got some heat for that later. Which she of course just laughed at!

    Anyway, I really enjoyed that lap and so did my passenger! Don't know about the passengers in the Taxi though....




    Enjoy!

    S.

    Re: Sabine in Ringtaxi

    Yeah, not really the same style...
    Thanks for the link Stephen!
    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Re: Slow down RC!!

    Well, Walter Roehrl did it in a stock car? How, if there weren't any stock cars available by that time? Or could you buy a GT3 when Walter Röhrl did the testing?

    Same stock as AMG's SL55 was stock in Nardo?
    A car which isn't available for buying isn't stock to me. It is a prototype or pre-production.

    There is even a "conspiracy theory" that Walter Röhrl never did the Nordschleife in under 8 minutes in the GT3. Which would make Ulf's time even more unbelievable.

    I'm also not sure you can name Ulf Karlsson an amateur.

    The Corsas are good but saving 10 seconds vs. the GT3's P-Zero N3...I don't know. Especially not on the Nordschleife.
    Most GT3 drivers I know are happy to beat the 9 minute "barrier". And they're good drivers, maybe not pros.

    BTG times are a bit tricky and doing a calculus from them even more.

    Again, don't get me wrong: Ulf did a marvelous job, the video is very very nice and I enjoyed it. I'm pretty sure I'd never do this time in a GT3 on the Nordschleife and I have great respect for Ulf. But the time sounds a bit exaggerated to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

    BTW: didn't the Ringers have a deadly accident in the past on the Nordschleife? Maybe I'm wrong but there was a story...don't remember the details anymore.

    Regarding the Ring Taxi: highly recommendable to anyone who intends to drive on the Nordschleife. But don't be scared.

    A last thought on the Nordschleife: I know there is a certain myth and I can fully understand it. I've been only twice there (well, there were no rallyes on the Nuerburgring ) and it was impressive. But what impressed me most was the fact that it was actually looking like a normal street through the woods and not like a real race track. I can't explain this feeling too well but the Nordschleife is completely different from other race tracks. And I guess this is one reason why it is so dangerous, every year there are deads and seriously wounded and people driving there should be aware of it. This is no playground but the fact that there are Turbo monsters driving at the same time as 100 HP compact cars and motorcycles makes the Ring even more dangerous.

    So again, no offense taken...just a few personal thoughts.
    The Nordschleife is not worth losing your life.

    BTW: the picture shows my "old" 996 C4 with powerkit at the Nuerburgring.


    Fast lane

    You are absolutely right about Nürburgring's Nordschleife. What makes it so very good, and so very bad, is that it isn't a race track in the modern sense of the word. There are no runoff areas. There's nothing but Armco and trees. At first it is totally confusing. It is engineered to confuse. But once you know the track a little the speeds are extremely high. As Ulf says, he enters one fast corner at 255 km/h. No room even to catch a slide at that speed. I myself have had some high speed snap oversteer situations in the Turbo in some of those corners. Scary.

    So far this year there have been four deaths on the NS. This counts only those who are certified dead at the track. There have been many serious injuries. If you leave the track alive but die in the helicopter you are not counted as a fatality.

    The Ringers death you are referring to is Jørund Seim. He was a friend. The motorcycle videos he made are quite incredible. By the way, his lap time on a bike was 7:40 BTG - faster even than Ulf.

    I do believe Ulf's time. But as I said, I know him personally. To me, there is an eternity of difference in 20 seconds on the NS.

    There are others I know who are close. This also suggests that Röhrl's time is reasonable. I think his 7:56 in the Turbo also tends to underscore this as does the similar times put in by various tuners also in the Turbo and his slightly faster time in the GT2. These are all professional drivers and the times are in the same ballpark.

    Anyway, if you know something about Röhrl's 7:56 time please share it with us.

    The 10 second allowance for Corsas vs. Assimetricos is my own estimation. It should probably be a little lower but I was being conservative. Actually the "R" tyres are even more useful on the NS because of their superior turn-in. There are so many corners.

    The allowance for a stock GT3 for conversion from BTG to flying lap is pretty well worked out now and is safely 23-24 seconds.

    By the way, I'm now comfortably under 9:00 BTG in the Turbo after one season with, I think, lots more room to improve.

    I call Ulf an amateur because he is still paying for rides. I don't really consider someone professional until they get paid to do it. Ulf would be the first to agree.

    I also recommend the Ringtaxi to anyone who has the opportunity. Despite her efforts, Sabine has never crashed in the taxi. I was fortunate enough to be offered a ride in the back very early on. It is unbelievable. Sort of like being strapped to the tail of a dog that is chasing after a cat. I shall never forget that ride. You just try to hang on for dear life!

    S.

    Re: Fast lane

    In reply to:
    I was fortunate enough to be offered a ride in the back very early on. It is unbelievable. Sort of like being strapped to the tail of a dog that is chasing after a cat. I shall never forget that ride. You just try to hang on for dear life!



    The ride in the back is actually the most scary one.
    Not recommended to anyone with heart problems.

    Regarding Ulf K.: I meant he's not an amateur regarding his driving skills which seem to be pretty impressive. Not to forget about his racing experience with different occasions (24h race, etc.)

    This is my favorite subject on the Internet. The Ring videos

    Gimme more, gimme more

    Under 8 min with a passenger is impressive.

    Best taxi ride you'll ever have!

    I do highly recommend anyone who thinks that they can stand to be driven by a racing driver go for the Ringtaxi. It is quite a trip! Sabine goes through one set of tyres every 10 laps. Apparently, BMW spends a lot of money every year on the Ringtaxi and recoups very little through the charge which is, I think, about Euro 150. Anyone wanting to do it must book well ahead!!

    You know Christian, sometimes when I think about some of this stuff and look at videos like Ulf's video I have to wonder whether it is really a curse to like fast cars. Wouldn't it be better to collect stamps or something similarly sane? What is the sense really in trying to drive an extremely fast car around a closed loop faster than you have ever gone before knowing that if you make a mistake it will be your last? Why would any intelligent person want to do this?

    So maybe we should all sell our Porsche and buy something boringly safe.

    Or maybe not!

    S.

    No pax

    No passenger.

    We figure that the weight of a passenger on the NS is worth about 10 seconds. Let'em walk.

    Ok, one more. Quality on this one is not so good but highly entertaining! He is lucky to have finished at all but you gotta give him credit for one hell of a save!

    Mikjel in 944S

    Anders' description to go with it:

    In reply to:

    This is Mikjel going for it in his 944 Turbo. He is driving really fast and often on the limit. In Pflanzgarten II he is actually over the limit, turns in slightly too early and get a huge slide which he corrects with great skill - and just a bit of luck?! :-)




    Enjoy!

    S.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    Quick question... I saw something where a Techart tuned TT996 did a time of 7:36... Is this total BS?... I don't know the driver or any other details... Just curious if you knew anything about this.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    In reply to:

    I saw something where a Techart tuned TT996 did a time of 7:36... Is this total BS?...




    Hi Brooks,

    As you can see from Christian's and my conversation, you really have to know the details. Is it flying lap or BTG? Or is it the slightly shortened lap that SportAuto uses?? 7:36 is very impressive for a flying lap but not that special if it is BTG.

    Also, the commercial pressures to deliver a quick lap time are intense. Everyone is quoting and using Nürburgring numbers these days. It is not uncommon for them to crash trying. Sometimes it is just easier to cheat a little.

    To give you some perspective, Walter Röhrl claims something like 7:49 in the stock GT2. Derek Bell did 6:41 in a 956. Power alone will not get you a significantly improved lap time.

    S.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    ...And Stefan Bellof holds the record with 6'11" on a qualif(l)ying lap, correct?
    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Bellof & Bell

    I think that's correct. Bell's time is so easy to remember because of the fantastic video he made and commentated to. It is just incredible to watch.

    Bellof died shortly after that -- at Spa I believe.

    S.

    Re: Bellof & Bell

    Yeah, he died at Spa, trying to catch up with Jacky Ickx.
    Do you know where the video of his record-lap can be seen/bought?
    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Re: Bellof & Bell

    The video is the Derek Bell video and not Bellof.

    In those days the cameras were very heavy and there is no way Bellof could have done that time with a camera in the car (watch the video and you'll see that there is a famous line on this topic in it).

    I have this video. Unfortunately it is old and in QuickTime format. That means low quality and big file sizes. 115MB.

    But well worth the effort! This is a classic.

    Here are two places you might find it:

    http://www.lad.lv/~martini/porsche/default.asp?Sub=3&SubSub=2
    http://w1.movies.taner.net/

    I suspect both could be "difficult" sites. I think I originally got it from the second. Took forever.

    The file name is "Nurburgring-956.mov".

    Good luck!

    S.

    Re: Amateur video of lap at Nürburgring

    In reply to:
    Quick question... I saw something where a Techart tuned TT996 did a time of 7:36... Is this total BS?... I don't know the driver or any other details... Just curious if you knew anything about this.



    The record is 7 min. 32,5 sec. and has been achieved by a Gemballa Porsche GTR 600.


    Techart tried to beat this record in several attempts but they crashed the car. They'll try again next year.
    They held the record with 7 min. 43,4 sec. in a Techart GT Street until Gemballa broke it.

    Re: Bellof & Bell

    Hi Pierre,

    you can buy the video at amazon.com.
    Look for "In car 956".

    Regards
    Wolfgang

    Re: Bellof & Bell

    Thanks Wolfgang! I just ordered it from Amazon...
    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Re: Bellof & Bell

    BTW, quite a few videos can be found here:
    http://www.lad.lv/~martini/porsche/default.asp?Sub=3&SubSub=2

    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Nurburgring-956.mov

    Have you guys seen that video???... It's totally amazing!!! Can't wait to receive the VHS tape to see it on a bigger screen...

    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Re: Nurburgring-956.mov

    This is considered a classic Pierre. Yes, it is just incredible to see. You have no idea anyone, or anything, could be so fast in a track which is so un-straght.

    It is due to the ground effects of the car. The faster the car goes, the better it sticks. But look what a hard time he has going through Karrosel where the car is going slow and then jumps up and down breaking the ground effects.

    When many of the Ring fans get a little ... errh ... drunk they start reciting some of Bell's lines. They've become quite famous. Such as when Jacky Ickx passes him and he blames it on the weight of the camera ("he's going a lot faster than I am but then he doesn't have the weight of a camera in his car").

    It is an incredible video. Highly entertaining. But you cannot learn a lot from it. It goes too fast and the car is too special and in a way, Bell is just too good.

    S.

    Incroyable!!!

    Just watched the video,
    it was definitly worth the downloading time.
    Absolutely amazing, what a driver!!!
    Brilliant!!!
    Fanch.

    Re: Incroyable!!!

    Hey Guys,

    The link is no longer available. Does anybody know where else I can download this Video.

    Avi

    Re: His driving

    The driver don't know how to heel and toe, he grabbed the steering wheel to tight, lines was ok.

    I wonder... to go fast in the ring or be in the ringer list don't require basic driving skill??

     
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